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Bonniegiff
05-31-2013, 4:56 PM
I started out with about two hundered and fifty eggs. I am raising them in a jar. The one gallon jar is placed in a fish tank with a heater so I can keep the water warm. They go through the wiggleing stage and then become free swiming fry. I feed them first bites dry food and live baby brine shrimp. After a few days of free swimming they start to die on me, about 10-15 a day. I have checked my water perimeters and they are perfect and I have no ommonia. I clean the tanks once or twice a day repacing the water with aged water. When I use the brine shrimp many a time I forget to rince the shrimp to get the salt out. But a friend says that is not important. I can not understand what I am doing wrong. Thanks for your help.

OrionGirl
05-31-2013, 6:18 PM
Note, I've not raised angel fry.

However, at a guess, I'd think not rinsing could make a difference based on the volume of water you're dealing with. A teaspoon of salt in a gallon is a lot different than a teaspoon of salt in a 10 gallon. Other thoughts--have you seen the fry eating? Are you providing some sort of aeration?

authmal
05-31-2013, 7:36 PM
What are the parameters? In this case, I'd recommend all measurables, not just ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, including temperature and pH. "Perfect" isn't always so, and there may be an issue. As someone else said, the person asking for help doesn't get to use adjectives in reference to their water quality, the people responding to the plea do, because, obviously, that person is the one asking for help. There may be something unexpected in there that'll help the smart people (which excludes me; all I'm trying to do is facilitate speedy resolution) resolve your problem.

Can we get a picture of the setup? It sounds a bit confusing to me.

Aged water? How long aged? I'm not sure aging water removes/binds certain contaminants, like metals or chloramines. I know it allows chlorine to off-gas. You may be well served to try treating the water with something appropriate.

Brine shrimp? Babies or adults?

Bonniegiff
06-01-2013, 3:03 AM
I did all measurables bot nitrate and nitrite 0 PH 6.5 hardness 150 ( My water is a little hard), Alkalinity 80. I can't give yopu a picture I am sorry I have no camera. An expert on angelFish gave a lecture at are last meeting. He is the man who developed the Koy andgel Fish. He sugested Using a jar to raise the eggs. I can't heat the jar because it is plastic so I put the jar in a fish tank with the heater in the tank it keeps the temp ant 80-82 degrees. Aged water is water out into a vessel for 24 hrs. I use anti chlor along with ths aged water. I also use Hydrogen peroxide. Rver 12 hrs but not after 24 hours. The exper said after the 24 hrs the HP is like poison. I give them newley hatch brine shrimp first bites, powdered and infasoria. Thanks

authmal
06-01-2013, 11:34 AM
Well. Your tank/jar isn't cycled, so that's probably the root of your problem. At the very least, I've never seen a cycled vessel that had ammonia (which you didn't provide a reading for) nitrite, *and* nitrate reading of 0. The first two being 0 is good. The last should have some value greater than 0. And what are you using the hydrogen peroxide for? If you're not using it properly, you'll kill off your nitrifying bacteria, making your tank uncycled.

tanker
06-01-2013, 11:44 AM
Yes, I agree. The one gal jar is just tooooo small. Fry are really delicate. When I was raising angels, I had a 20gal just for the babies. With a 1gal jar--at best you will only have about 5-10 that will live.

I did not rinse the BB-shrimp when I use to feed them, but I had other foods too. Changing most of the water everyday is nice, but the gal jar is still too small.

authmal
06-01-2013, 1:15 PM
Yes, I agree. The one gal jar is just tooooo small. Fry are really delicate. When I was raising angels, I had a 20gal just for the babies. With a 1gal jar--at best you will only have about 5-10 that will live.

I did not rinse the BB-shrimp when I use to feed them, but I had other foods too. Changing most of the water everyday is nice, but the gal jar is still too small.

I'm going to make an assumption, and on the basis of that assumption, disagree with you, Tanker. Assuming an expert on angelfish care and breeding gave a lecture and indicated that a jar is a good way to go about things, and this expert is one who actually created a new line of true breeding fish, their information should, by any reasonable measure, be excellent. However, the problem I see is the same that I see with most religions, in that the human mind tends to get distracted, so, in hearing a lecture, it's really unlikely that *all* of the information provided is retained. In terms of religion, you end up with people remembering certain parts of their religion's scriptures, and being ignorant of others. In the case of presentations like the one on angelfish care, any number of steps can be misconstrued, misinterpreted, or just plain missed. It may have been use the jar until the eggs hatch, and then put the fry into a fry only grow out tank. It may have been dose with hydrogen peroxide if, and only if, eggs are fuzzy. As an example, Bonnie cites a 12 or 24 hour period (that sentence didn't really parse for me) in which hydrogen peroxide becomes toxic, apparently to the fry/eggs. Well, when hydrogen peroxide decays or breaks down, it turns into two things: H2O and O2, commonly known as water and oxygen. That would seem to indicate that it's *less* toxic as time passes, not more.

So, with my limited knowledge (especially in the absence of images), I'd say Bonnie's biggest problem currently *is* the H2O2 dosing, because it's destroying the biological filtration, rendering her tank/jar combination uncycled, and therefore unfit for young fish of any variety. Trust me when I say it happens. I had a happily cycled (0/0/5-10 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate) 10 gallon tank. I've lost easily over 200 RCS because I used H2O2 to kill off some BBA (in hindsight, I should have risked melting the subwassertang which seems to have died anyway by dosing Flourish Excel instead). I've gotten it cycled again, but the nitrates skyrocketed (I was so focussed on getting ammonia and nitrites down, that I neglected some water changes), so I'm in the process of multiple daily water changes to reduce that to reasonable levels, but the rate of deaths have dropped from 10-15 daily, to about one per day. I'd say have some pretty good first hand experience on the havoc too much H2O2 can wreak on a tank. I still use it on my main tank, but the quantities are so low in comparison to the volume of water, that it has no measurable impact on my biological filtration.

tanker
06-01-2013, 1:56 PM
Authmal:

You maybe right. I do not claim to be an expert on this either, but I have raised many, many angels from eggs to adults when I was young.

Bonnie:

Why are you dosing H2O2??

authmal
06-01-2013, 4:06 PM
And I'll be the first to admit I've not raised any angels beyond the one I have right now,and it's very much a juvie. I just think that something is going wrong somewhere for Bonnie, and evidence implies it's the lack of a biological filter.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using MonsterAquariaNetwork App

Bonniegiff
06-02-2013, 1:50 AM
I took notes at the lecture and after I read what you said I went back to my notes. I thought maybe I missed something. I think maybe I kept them in the jar to long. It says Hatching go into aged clorinated water. The jar is in a tank with aged water so after I read your post I emptied them all in the tanks. One thing he mentioned was not to put the babies in any tank larger than a 5.5 gallon because it's hard for the fry to find the food. You also mentioned cyclcycling the tank. I used aged water maybe I should take some liquid from sponges in other tanks and add that to the tank. That is a form of cycling. I am trying anything to save the fry I have. I have three different spawns going. Thanks for your help.

authmal
06-02-2013, 11:21 AM
That is not a form of cycling. It may help accelerate cycling, but it is most assuredly not a form of cycling.

Star_Rider
06-03-2013, 12:15 PM
I may chime in here.

the biggest issue with young angel fry .. particularly at early development.

Bacteria, while having a sufficient bio filter is good you must also realize that other bacteria that may be harmful to early dev fry are also in the water. they do not have a very good immune system and can be very susceptible to bacterial infection. in may cases large water changes with aged water is used and done daily 50% plus ..it is very important to make sure all uneaten foods are removed from the grow out /incubation tank.
keep in mind that it is important that the water used in aging have sufficient circulation.
H202 is an oxidizer and will kill bacteria. however, using it in aged water you must make sure the H2O2 has been neutralized before adding it to the main tank. uthmal is correct.. it will kill any beneficial bacteria as well.

TwoTankAmin
06-04-2013, 1:26 PM
Angels overnight on the bottom, so any fry raising container needs to be very clean on the bottom glass. This is one of the reasons why it is especially important to vacuum uneaten food. When I raised angels (and I did not do it for long as 4-500 babies was way too many per spawn) I did not begin to feed anything non live until about day 10. This helped to precvent fouling the water and bottom.

I have always used methylene blue to prevent fungus on eggs and was taught to remove it as soon as I saw wigglers. I was told it can damage young gills.

There is a pretty good article on angelfish by Cindy Hawley which has a good section on how to raise eggs away from parents using a big jar http://fins.actwin.com/articles/freshwaterangels.php



Limited penetration of inhibitors into biofilms has been widely observed in previous investigations (de Beer et al., 1994; Stewart et al., 2001; Stewart et al., 2000; Xu et al., 1996). In those reports, the concentration profiles of hydrogen peroxide or chlorine in biofilms were directly measured with microelectrodes and limited penetration of the biocides into the biofilms was demonstrated. This phenomenon could be explained by several mechanisms: diffusional resistance of the biofilm matrix (Costerton et al., 1987), neutralizing reaction of the inhibitors with the biofilm constituents (van der Wande et al., 1989), adsorption of the inhibitors onto the biofilm constituents, and degradation of the inhibitors (Antizar-Ladislao and Galil, 2003).
Other research shows the effect of HP on autotrophic nitrifiers appears to depend on the amount and duration of the exposure.