Need Some Help, Fast!

[jdheff1982]

I just got home about 45 minutes ago and checked out my 37 gallon tank. I found the male sitting in one spot and the female lying on her side, dead. I immediately grabbed my tank divider and stuck it in the 20 gallon tank with kribs. I netted the male and stuck him in the unoccupied portion of the 20 gallon. Was this the right thing to do??? He seems ok except that he is gaspin pretty hard. He has all of his colors showing, so he seem alright. The only fish I have in the 37 now are the 2 spotted rafaels. Any advice would be helpful. BTW, I would give water parameters, but they would be messed up since I added 40ml of Amquel after I pulled the rams. I really just need some guidence as to what to do next. Check out "My daily cycling log." I usally post in the evening, but I may go ahead and post this morning and evening today. Please help!! Thanks!

[morleyz]

I would imagine that nitrites would be responsible for the problems. I don't think rams would be very high on my list of good fish to cycle with. Moving the male was a good idea, however there's a pretty good chance that there is already a lot of damage done and he may never fully recover. If you're sure you want to cycle with fish, I'd switch to something like a zebra danio that isn't nearly as sensitive to the high ammonia and nitrites.

[Cichlid Woman]

Whoa, did I miss something? Was it the female Ram that died, or the female krib? Are both the Rams dead?

How does the male krib look now? Were the colors really bright on the fish that died? (I hate to say this, but that can be a sign of death by ammonia poisoning ...)

Hang in there.

-- Pat

[jdheff1982]

Ok, CW, I moved the male ram into the divided krib tank. Both kribs and kids are fine. I just checked my water in the 37 gallon and it has no ammonia, but the nitrites are at 1 ppm. I would do nitrates, but it takes to long to do and I am tired. Hope this helps some. BTW, ever since my 37 gallon has been thrown into another cycle, the water readings have been pretty consistant. Almost always 0 ammonia, 1 to 5 ppm nitrites and <1 ppm nitrates. I don't understand it......

[jdheff1982]

Another thing, do you think that spotted rafaels (a family of the doradids) will be ok thru the cycling process??? They were in the tank when I had the bumble cichlids and when the tank was fine. Thanks!

EDIT: BTW, this will be the last post until I get up from bed [dang 3rd shift!] Thanks for the help!!

[morleyz]

Originally posted by silver_shark
BTW, ever since my 37 gallon has been thrown into another cycle, the water readings have been pretty consistant. Almost always 0 ammonia, 1 to 5 ppm nitrites and <1 ppm nitrates. I don't understand it......

How long have you been showing nitrites? How long has the tank been setup? What caused it to "re-cycle'?

[ArkyLady]

I guess I'm confused, I assumed this 37 gallon was a brand new setup since you were doing the cycling log on it? I was about to ask you in PM if you were doing a fishless cycle or what since you didn't specify in your cycling log post. I guess this answers my question :(

[jdheff1982]

It has been showing nitrites for the past week. It was fully cycled for about 2 weeks before hand. Like I keep asking, are my 2 spotted rafaels going to be hurt by the cycling???? I really don't have anywhere to put them. Thaks

[jdheff1982]

Update on the male ram:

He seems to be getting better, but hard to tell. He is checking out his temporary tank and has even tried to get at the kribs on the other side of the divider. I have noticed his mouth looks kinda odd, almost cottony. I noticed area on his bod that are kinda greenish streaks. But just by looking at the way he is now, he seems better than before. He is still gasping a lot though. I hope he makes it!!

[morleyz]

Keep an eye on the ram if you want to try and save him. If his mouth is getting cottony, he could be developing a secondary bacteria or fungal infection. His heavy breathing would indicate that he may have some gill damage from swimming in nitrites for so long.

As far as the raphaels go...how the high nitrites affect each fish is really dependent on the individual fish. The reason why people recommend cycling with fish like zebra danios is that even though they're hardy and likely to survive...if they don't they usually only cost a buck. Without a doubt, swimming around in nitrites at any concentration is going to do some sort of damage...how much damage is the real question.

How big are the fish? Maybe you can throw them into the 20 and cramp everyone for a few days while you finish out with a fishless.

[jdheff1982]

They are less then 2 inches each. The problem is that I will have to tear up the tank just to find them both. And since they love hiding spots, they will be nearly impossible to find. If I lose, that's ok (I guess). They didn't cost much and are not what I expected anyways.

Back to the ram, if that is a fungus developing on him, how can I treat it without harming the kribs and kids??? I took a look at him this morning and he seems better, his breathing is not nearly as hard and his gasps have slowed some. He became really agitated when I flipped on my bedroom lights and tried attacking the fake amazon sword I have in with him. I just continue to hope he gets better. Thanks for the help and support.

[Cichlid Woman]

Hi, Silver Shark,

The 37-gal is apparently still cycling. A week of nitrite readings is probably not unusual if that's the phase the cycle is in--I think. Experts: how long DOES the nitrite phase last?

As to what caused the second ... er ... "reboot" on your tank (second cycling): several things can cause it. Meds, something new and unknown in the tapwater when you do a water change, using housekeeping cleaners in the room that somehow make their way into the tank (fumes), etc. It's happened to me, and it always caught me by surprise because something affected the tank that I didn't expect. It will continue cycling. I have no idea how this will affect the raphaels.

Re: the ram freaking out when you turned on the lights. Are they full-room lights that flood the room? That will freak fishies out momentarily. It would be better if you've got a small lamp in there that you could turn on first, so they don't get full daylight all at once, so to speak.

How's the ram's mouth? It was scary for me when I once had to use an ich med while baby kribs were in the tank. Be very careful about which med you use--one that's safe for all fish--and the krib babies will be okay. As to which one, it depends on what the ram's got, and you may have to use it half-strength. Try this link to figure out the diagnosis ... http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html#External

The site also has additional links at the bottom of the page if the symptom isn't listed here.

I'd watch him for a day or so, see if he can kick it by himself. If not, you'll have to dose the tank. I'm hoping that once we know exactly what he's got, some of the very knowledgeable people here can suggest a safe med.

Hang in there!

-- Pat

[jdheff1982]

Well, just woke up a little bit ago and noticed that he is on his last fin (????). He is swimming at a 45 degree angle at the top of the water. I squirted some Novaqua Fish Protector on him hoping it would do some good. I don't expect him to live much longer, SHOOT!!!! Because of what he has gone thru, is there any chance that the kribs and kids my get infected too, or will it be just the ram??? The appreciate everyones support. Thanks!

[jdheff1982]

I was reading that aquarium salt help improves gill function. If I added enough for 20 gallons to my krib and kids tank with the ram, will it hurt the kribs and kids??? I was thinking that if I gave the ram a salt bath that maybe he would be mor likely to pull thru.

[morleyz]

You should be able to safely add some salt.

As far as the fungus spreading...it really would depend on specifically what it was. If the kribs and kids are healthy, I think I'd probably euthanize the ram before I tried anything beyond salt...sounds like he's in pretty bad shape. Unless you have something separate to medicate him in that is...I wouldn't medicate the whole tank if it were me.

And...last but not least...the length of the nitrite spike is kinda hard to guage...especially in this somewhat strange situation. I typically tell people that the nitrite spike lasts 1.5-2X the length of the ammonia spike...and it's usually pretty close to that. So if it took a week and half for ammonia to spike and crash...it'll probably take 2-3 weeks for the nitrite.

[jdheff1982]

I just got back from petco with some meds. I did finally find a suitable q.tank for the guy. This is what I got>

AP Stress Coat
Melafix
Ampicilliex

I already added appropiate doses and it seems that there is already a little improvement. He has stopped gasping at the top of the water now. I just hope he gets better. When I found the white fungus developing in the 20 gallon, I immediately did a 25% water change to clean up the depris and such. It hasn't come back, so I'm hopen it is gone. Thanks for the help all!

[morleyz]

Let us know how it turns out.

[jdheff1982]

As far as the cycling of the 37 galon is concerned, I have never had a problem with ammonia since I hav owned fish, it is just the nitrites spiked and have been having a real problem coming down. This recycling has me really baffled.

[morleyz]

Have you taken a sample to the LFS to confirm your readings?

EDIT: Another thought, have you added some of your filter media from the established Krib tank to your filter on the 37G? You have such a small bio-load as it is...even a small amount of media should make a big difference. I'd be curious to know if the added colony would die back or not...

[famman]

The rapheals will do OK but not great with the nitrite spike, but water change it down quickly before you hurt them. Look specifically for damage on their long wiskers.
It is clear you had a mini-cycle due to immaturity of the bacteria colony or adding fish, or disturbing the substrate or something.
Your ram will not recover fully, sorry. It is up to you to see if he recovers enough to be happy.
If you re-innoculate daily from your good tank, your nitrite spike should go away in a week or less.

A nitrite spike usually takes twice as long as the ammonia spike to go away.

good luck
:)

[jdheff1982]

morleyz: I did do that! Infact I got rock from 2 different established tanks and stuck it in my filstar xp3!! I even have the bio-stars in the canister and the AQ300.I checked the nitrites again after the water change about an hour and a half ago and they are still above 1 ppm. Like I said, I never had an ammonia spike. Would a dead fish cause flucuations like this. Reason why I am asking is because I only see 1 spotted rafael anymore and the other just hides and rarely makes himself known. Thanks!

famman: I have been doing 25% water changes since tuesday and on monday I had to drain the tank because I was givin a new stand. Again, thanks!

Gotta go to work! Chow!!

[morleyz]

Certainly a dead fish can cause ammonia and nitrite spikes...but you would likely see ammonia too if your colony was too small to handle it all...

I'm still confused though...how long has this tank been setup? Did you fishless it before you added fish? You have said that your tank started cycling again...I'm just curious how you knew it was done in the first place. There has be a reasonable explanation for this.

[jdheff1982]

Well, just came home and discovered the little trooper expired. I tried, but it was lack of experiance that killed him. All in all, I think it was mainly the ack of heat in the water. Rams minimal is 75 F and the water was at 70 F. Before I left yesterday to work he was swimming around and coming to the top when leaned over his q.tank. Bummer, I really liked those 2 too!!! Well, I hope my cycling gets done soon! I can't wait for it to be over with!! Thanks for everyones help!!! I learned a lot this time round.....