Fish dying, getting very discouraged!!!

[moboe]

Greetings,
I'm having a lot of trouble stocking my 20g tank, set up 2/15/04, as in the last 2 weeks I've lost 7 fish! 3 swordtails and 1 mickey mouse platy seemed to be lost due to a bad batch of fish from the LFS. Then a replacement swordtail jumped out of the tank and died last week. And, today, suddenly 2 of my ottos were dead! They have been looking fine...for several weeks they have all had fat tummys, but I just chalked that up to them eating a lot. If it was a parasite, could it have festered for so long before killing them?

Here are my specs:
2 Long Finned Leopard Danios (cycled with them)
2 Zebra danios (cycled with them)
1 (remaining) otto (added 3/28/04)
1 (remaining) mickey mouse platy (added 4/14/04)
2 (new) swordtails (one added 4/27/04, one added 5/4/04)

Water has checked out great since mid March:
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates about 10, I do 30% water changes once a week
Ph 7.5

My stocking goal was:
4 Danios
3 Ottos
2 Platys
2 Swordtails
1 or 2 Dwarf Gouramis

But, since I keep losing fish, it doesn't seem like I'll ever get there. I've tried to add fish very slowly, but keep running into trouble.

I don't want to give up, but I seem to be having a lot of trouble. Any advice or explanation of what I'm doing wrong or what I should do it really appreciated. Thanks for listening.

Margaret

[OrionGirl]

For the otos, more than likely the fat tummy was from a lack of digestive microbes. These fish seem to require a healthy population of bacteria in their gut that break down the algae they consume. Without the bacteria, the fish basically starve, even though they are eating a lot.

Can't offer much help in the way of the swords and platies--if the source is suspect, really the only thing you can do is find another one. Covering the tank to prevent jumpers is certainly advised--but the jumping itself isn't indicative of something wrong in the tank.

[moboe]

Thanks, OG, for your information! Where do the otos get the digestive microbes? From the tank? Is my tank "too" clean? Or is this something that they were lacking genetically? Basically, is there something I can do to provide these microbes for the remaining oto, or others that I might add?

I have covered the TINY area where the HOB filter flows into the tank as much as possible to prevent further jumping deaths. I like to think of it that he was so happy, he was jumping for joy...just too far.

Thanks again. I'm somewhat less discouraged!

[tomm10]

As usual I would have to agree with OG here. It seems like you're running into a streak of bad luck/timing here rather than an epidemic.

I would also agree that you might want to look to another source for your fish. It seems as though you might not be getting the best specimens from your current shop.

Tom

[OrionGirl]

The best guess for where otos get the bacteria is from other otos--and I suspect there may be a time period for when they can do this. In other words, if the oto is starved for too long, it loses it's bacteria. If it's re-introduced to otos that have the bacteria within a few days, it can get them from the other fish, after that, it's out of luck and will likely die. Again, these are suspicions of mine based on a little bit of info and observing the fish in my own tanks.

[moboe]

Thanks again, OG and Tom. I guess that if I get a couple more otos, they may be able to provide the needed bacteria to the last remaining guy in the tank, if he indeed is lacking it. But, from your description, it sounds like it is something that will inevitably go away, unless you keep introducing new otos?

After losing the 3 swordtails and 1 platy, who were all from the same store, I switched stores. The 2 current swordtails, and the one who jumped to his death, were from this "new" store. As were the otos, 2 of whom are now dead. They did last at least 6 weeks, though.

Thanks so much for the help. Maybe I'll try to get some additional otos tomorrow. Maybe I'll get 3, so I'll have 4...assuming the current one survives.

I appreciate the support so much!

Margaret

[OrionGirl]

The current one, unless it has a grossly fat tummy, may be just fine. The others probably were past the point of recovery.

[moboe]

OG wrote: "In other words, if the oto is starved for too long, it loses it's bacteria."

Do you mean that they didn't get enough food in my tank, so they were starving, lost this internal bacteria, and now eating isn't helping, and that is why they died? I feel like a terrible parent! I sometimes put little bits of algae wafers in the tank, but figured between the natural tank algae and the leftover flakes they were getting enough.

I feel so bad. I'll do better next time, I hope!

Margaret

[OrionGirl]

No, no, no! Sorry to have confused you. Shippers don't feed the fish when they send them to the stores, and they lose their bacteria before you ever have a chance to buy them. Not your fault, nothing you even could do to prevent it, since it happens well before you buy the fish.

[moboe]

Thanks for clearing that up, OG. I was worried there for a minute! The last remaining oto hasn't moved from the leaf he's been sitting on since yesterday (at least he was there yesterday, and is there again today...I suppose he could have been swimming like a wild man all night.) His belly is quite swollen, so I fear he will die, too.

So, the negative effects of being shipped to the LFS could lead to dead fish 6 weeks later? I'm sorry to learn that. I've always thought that if they make it for a few days, they are likely ok. It doesn't sound like there is anyway around this problem for otos. It sounds like just dumb luck...who starved the least during shipping, rather than the usual; a good LFS, not brand new stock to the store, etc.

Is there anything I can do to help him? I feel so bad for him, sitting there with a huge belly. I guess this is why they aren't considered hardy. Now I don't know if I should add more otos or try another kind of fish.

Thanks for all the help. I've learned a lot.

Margaret

[OrionGirl]

In cases of starvation, it can take a long time. Fish have very slow metabolisms, so it takes a long time for them to run out of resources. In getting otos, I've had success in asking the LFS to give me one of their workers--most stores with planted tanks add a few to the plant display tanks to keep algae down. One from there and 2 that are new to the store, and you usually can get all three in good shape. That's how I got the 6 I have now--one worker from them, and 5 new ones. They are happy enough to spawn, some 9 months later. It's worth asking, at least.

[moboe]

Thanks a million, OG. I'll definitely look for a worker oto at the LFS tomorrow. Maybe we can save the last guy yet...or at least any new ones I add.

I appreciate it a lot.

Margaret