why buy "the package" from tampabay saltwater? seems all wrong to me .....

1) I can't fully address this one, but a fair number of species are just incredibly hard to keep in captivity. TBS rock is more species-rich than almost any other rock.

2) Personally, my reading indicates that a good variety of snails is a better cleaning crew in the long run than one that is mostly hermits and stars. Hermits and stars can be good additions, but cerith snails, nassarius snails, and astrea snails pack a hefty cleaning punch that might make a better crew foundation. I can't comment on cucumbers, as I stopped researching them when I realized just how many can kill a tank.

3) Depends on the LR. TBS recommends a LOT of rock. That tells me that their rock isn't that porous. Rock surface area is what matters, no total lbs. Lighter, more porous rocks might require as little as 3/4 lb per gallon, though I wouldn't feel confident with less than 1 lb per gallon. We've also gotten some stories in the newbie forum that makes it sound like TBS's quality is sort of random. Sometimes what you get is absolutely fabulous, but sometimes you get some surprisingly bad rock.


I am in the process of cycling my tank now, and I decided I'd be better off with something other than the TBS package. However, if you want a huge variety of life, they are one of the best options for your rock and sand. I am doing more of a FOw/LR than a reef, though, so my choices have different motivations.

http://www.etropicals.com/ is where I'm getting my cleaning crew from.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/ is where I'm looking at buying my liverock and sand.
http://www.inlandaquatics.com/ is where I'm thinking of buying extra detrivores if not enough come with my live rock.

Well- TBS rock is not without its problems but IMO the benefits outweigh them by a long shot.

As far as #1- most of the life does not die. Most of what will probably die is visible surface sponges- the life you cannot see within the rock in what I was interested in.
Diversity is a good thing- the more life you introduce into your tank the more likely things are to percolate along naturally. My TBS rock was sitting on the bottom of the ocean one morning and it was in my tank by that afternoon- 99% of life intact.
How folks maintain their life is up to them but I see no reason why the vast majority of the stuff would die given reasonable tank parameters.

#2 There may be a bit of an issue here- but that depends on what you eventually plan to house in your tank.
The Tiger Tail cukes are safe and effective- they are not a species that will nuke a tank.
Some brittle stars (especially the huge ones) do out compete corals for food, but so far I have never seen one attempt to eat anything living. I think they would have to be very hungry for that to happen.
Hermits- again, what do you plan on keeping? They may pick at clams, and fight amongst themselves but they do provide a bang up job of eating detrius.

I do have issue with Richard as far as sending "freebie" Condylactis and Epicystis anemones, urchins, tree sponges, etc that a young tank is not ready for. Some are inappropriate for a general "mixed reef" that most of us want. You get attached to them then down the road see that they are not in the tanks best interests.

#3- For my 90 gallon tank I bought the 100 gallon package just so I would have extra rock for my refugium and some leftover rubble for coral mounting.
I could use more rock, so no, 180 lbs is just right.


In the long run I do believe TBS rock is the way to go for a first time reefer. It is so amazing to sit and watch, and even the few creatures that do cause a problem don't begin to bother anything until months later when you start adding corals. At that point I simply traded them to my LFS for what I needed. They had provided me many hours of entertainment while I was waiting the six months for the tank to mature, and I wouldn't have wanted to have to sit here and watch nothing.

And IMO fooling with your rock to remove the hairy crabs and possible mantis is all part of your general reef experience. There is not much else to do to the tank in the initial months, so playing around with critters is fun.

All in all I think TBS is worth it. I bought the package and have been extremely happy with the product and the service.
Just take time to decide exactly what you want in the way of shapes (I'd remember to ask for some "shelf" pieces) and use your discretion on which critters to keep forever and which to keep only for entertainment during the first few months.

Good luck- hope you've carved out a free week or two to sit and stare at your rocks!!

This is an excellent post. One of my complaints about TBS' "testimonies" was that it was all after first arrival. I wanted to know more about the long term.

I've had the stuff for over 2 years now, and have read a lot of posts about it, so I have a lot more perspective than when I started out. I am very happy with it, but you have to decide for yourself whether it's the way to go. Although it has been hotly disputed, I believe that the fact that it's aquacultured is also in its favor.

1) i don't know if this is true or not but "some people" in this forum seem to think that most of the life on the rock will die off within a years time.

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This hasn't been my experience. The first 6 months was pretty Darwinian, in that a lot of the sponges slowly died off, and some inhabitants ate each other (like limpets eating sponges and tunicates). Nonetheless, the rock came with a lot of corals, almost all of which are alive after 2 years. There are more species of sponge than I can count growing and thriving in the shaded regions of the tank, and I still discover a new sponge or tunicate occasionally. The pistol shrimp and porcelain crabs are great little additions to a reef tank.

So, you lose a lot, but you get a lot. Another real issue, though, is the "bad" hitchhikers. I got no mantis shrimp, but I can't put corals or clams on my sandbed because of nereid worms that are in the live sand. They nip pieces from the mushrooms that are low on the rockwork, and will eat any soft coral frag or mushroom on the sandbed outright. Suck them right down. I suppose I could tear the tank apart to get the worms, but I figure it's easier to leave them be, and adapt to the limitations.

2) Most the people here seem to think Blue Leg hermit crabs(comes with 180),Serpent stars(2) or Brittle Stars(2) and Tiger Tail Cucumbers(4) are not only not helpfull but bad for your tank.

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Welcome to the wonderful world of reefkeeping, where strong opinions abound. I have had little trouble witrh hermits, and think they have their place in a cleaning crew along with a variety of snails. I think TBS includes so many to deal with the initial growths of algae and dying sponges. Too many hermits, IMO.

I think serpent stars are great. Good scavengers and entertaining.

I got some hitchhiking brittle stars, a few of which are now quite large, and they are excellent detritivores. I don't know what comes in the package these days.

The cucumbers have their utility, but I'm not convinced the species they send is all that good.

I wish they would stop sending the d@mn condy anemones as freebies. Most probably die.

3) some people say 180 pounds of LR is way to much for a 90 gal tank....

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Given the density of the rock, 2 lbs/gallon is OK. It gave me a nice, rocky reef, with a lot of places for corals.

Oh, you forgot to mention complaints about biological filtration with the density of the rock. It's fine. With a densely populated tank and a shallow sandbed, my NO3 hovers about 1.0.

Here's what I plan to do when I set up a new tank. Lay down a bed of playsand and buy some lace rock, and cycle with cocktail shrimp. Then get a package for 1/2 to 2/3 the size of the tank. Enough sand to innoculate the bed with interesting critters, enough rock to get a lot of corals, sponges, tunicates and hitchhikers, but not such a huge collection of hermits and peppermint shrimp. I also plan on adding snails, like trochus, peppermints, ceriths, from places like Inland Aquatics and IPSF, in addition to the astreas and hitchhiking ceriths.

I posted a thread about what survived the first year here:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=195898&highlight=tbs
It also gives views of others who have tried it. I should post a 2 year update, I suppose.

So, I gave you a bunch of words, maybe some of them will help the decsion.

I give my customers a choice. They can get LR from me ( Fiji, tonga or Marshall islands) , Order TBS ( which is what I reccomend) or get a mixture.

I've dealt with Richard and TBS for years and I reccomend them.

Please ask Richard not to include the Condy. Otherwise I like the package. TFH had a good article on brittle stars recently( I love them). I see no problem with the Cuccumber.

Ray