Algae while cycling?

[pastor.ed]

Hi folks,

I am doing a fishy cycle on my first tank. We are finishing up the 4th week, and I have been doing a 20% water change every day to keep the Ammonia under control. and my water is as follows

Amonia 1 ppm
Nitrite 1 ppm
Nitrate 10 ppm
KH and GH are both 300+
and PH is over 8

As you can see I have very hard water.

Even with the frequent water changes and keeping the Nitrates down, I am beginning to get a pretty good growth of brown algae on the plastic plants and on the glass in my tank. Even the gravel is looking a bit rusty.

We have even been turning the light off on the tank early to help slow down the growth.

I haven't found a phosphate test kit yet, so I don't know if that is the problem or not...

Any idea's why I am getting algae already, and what I might do about it.

I keep scrubbing the glass to keep it down there, but the plastic plants are starting to look kinda gross.

Thanks for your help.

Ed

[Blinky]

I'm surprised you still have NH3 and NO2 at the end of four weeks; if all I knew was that you were on week four, had 10ppm NO3 and algae, I'd say you were through cycling. If you've been changing the water daily, unless your tap water is high in phosphates, I can't imagine that your phosphates have built up to a very high level. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there will always be SOME algae in any healthy tank. Where there even low nitrates, phosphates and light, you're going to see a bit of algae.

If you've been over-cleaning the filter, this could be what's stopping you from reaching the end of the cycle. Sometimes people inadvertently remove the very bacteria they're trying to colonise by removing media from the filter or rinsing it under the tap, when really the only thing you ever want to do to a piece of biological filter media is rinse it out in a bucket full of water from the tank.

Can you post more details? Did you experience the expected 'spikes' of ammonia and nitrite? What kind of filtration are you using? Which specific type of filter, and what's the flow rate/model? When you change the water do you vacuum the substrate? Are your danios large? (Giant danios get pretty big, it could be that having six of them is overwhelming your filter).

Knowing the answers to these questions will us to help you figure out what's happening in your tank. If you want to post all your tank's parameters only once, there is a section of this forum called 'members' aquarium specs' where you can create a post with all your tank's info and create a link to put in your signature so people can click on it and read all the details.

As for the algae, once you're done cycling, you might want to get some otocinclus catfish; they stay very small, are harmless to other fish and do an amazing job of cleaning up algae. I almost never have to wipe down any surface or decorations in my tanks, there are only 2 in my 20g and 3 in my 45g and they keep the tanks sparkling clean.

Hopefully you'll be over the uphill cycling battle soon, it just gets easier from then on in. Welcome to the most addictive hobby on Earth ;)

[daveedka]

Ammonia + water + light = algea, furthermore algea is part of any fish only tank, and usually a battle with any new tank. ammonia is the prefferred source of N for plants, phosphates have been blamed for algea growth for years but some very knowledgeable people here contend that ammonia is more likely the cause. in either regard, 1 ppm of ammonia or nitrite is really high for fish, so I'd try to reduce the levels a bit until the bacteria takes over. blackouts will kill the algea, or you can take out the plastic plants and dip them in a 1-19 bleach solution then rinse well and put them back in. My Experience with fish only tanks is pretty substantial, and algea is a battle at all times, go with as little light as you can stand, for as short a period as you can stand, and keep up on good maintenance. other than that the occasional scub or blackout is the best plan. I also agree that your cycle should be wrapping up, but with fishy cycling there seems to be a lot of variables.
dave

[JSchmidt]

The brown algae is really diatom growth, and it is not uncommon in newer tanks. I wouldn't worry about it while you're cycling, because the last thing you want is to change something that might affect the cycle.

After the cycle has completed, if the diatoms don't go away on their own, you can try increasing the light (diatoms don't grow well in bright light) or you can gets some otto cats, who will clear it quickly.

All my new tanks have undergone the diatom stage and it has generally passed on its own.

HTH,
Jim

[happychem]

Agreed, don't worry about it just yet. My current tank went through a few stages of alga, starting with diatoms (brown algae) and right now I'm fighting a strain of hair algae. Worry about getting your tank cycled first. Once things have settled down and your tank's come to equilibrium, I expect that things like algae will be a little more manageable.

I do agree that Oto's are neat fish. They're a lot of fun to watch and they are diligent workers, very good with soft algae. But they won't do well in a cycling tank, nor should you get them, solely based on algae, unless they fit into your stocking plan.

[pastor.ed]

Thanks for the advice everybody, I really appreaciate it.

I'm not entierly sure what slowed my cycle down so much. I don't know if the initial water was contaminated in some way, or what was up, but I didn't get any sign of nitrites for over 2 weeks, of course the Ammonia went up quickly and I started doing partial water changes to try and keep a handle on it, and with such hard water and high PH. I was using RO bottled water for a while to try and bring the PH down to where the Ammonia would be a bit less toxic to the fishys.

Finally went and begged some filter material from the LFS. and it now looks like I have the cycle up and going, just about 2 weeks behind the normal schedual, but with a substantial amount of Ammonia already in the tank.

I am using a penquin 170 filter. I have only rinced the filter once, and that was in used tank water, and I have left the bio wheel alone.

I vacume the gravel a little bit everytime I do a water change, and I don't get much waste now (at first I did, like all newbies I suppose, I was overfeading).

I didn't realize that algae would feed on Ammonia, so that is surely the source of the problem.

I did get a ammonia spike.
I beleive I am getting the Nitrite spike right now, as I had 4ppm this morning. So I will be doing a larger water change this afternoon.

The danio's are still juvinals, about 1 1/2 inches excluding fins, and considering the ordeal they are going through they sure are happy playful little buggers.

I think that answers all the questions, but I mostly just wanted to say thanks (and play a little hooky from work this morning).


Ed

[happychem]

Try increasing your water changes to twice daily instead of increasing the size of the once a day change. More frequent, but smaller changes will be far more effective in preventing a buildup.

[Blinky]

Sounds like everything you're doing is perfect. If you're into the nitrite spike, you'll be over the cycle soon. Once you are fully cycled a couple otos will take care of the algae and keep your tank looking new :)
P.S. you know you're addicted when you play hookey from work to chat on a fish forum...

[daveedka]

Danio's are about as indestructable as a fish gets, My first choice when I used to do fishy cycles.


I didn't realize that algae would feed on Ammonia, so that is surely the source of the problem.

I learned much of this recently while doing my fishless cycle, according to some real experts at this site and others, ammonia is the preffered source of nitrogen for most if not all plants, that is one of the reasons the silent cycle works well. I learned after putting plants in during my fishless that a high ammonia level will promote the growth of every type of algea known to man ( I may have even cultured a few new specimens). In another thread I posted about Phosphate in my tap water, Tom Barr ( I hope I'm not misquoting him here) stated that he didn't feel P was the cause of a lot of algea growth but rather N via ammonia,He suggested that he had High P in his tanks but didn't have algea, and that if you set up control tanks one with high P one with amonia, the ammonia tank would be the one that greww algea. I can't present the case nearly as well as he did, But have found him to be a constant source of accurate information, as well as someone who diffuses popular myth with real science pretty regularly. I have every intention of doing the exact experiment he suggested. I Seriously doubt that my experiments will yeild anything different than Mr. Barrs did, but love to prove things to myself the hard way.
dave

[pastor.ed]

Originally posted by daveedka
, But have found him to be a constant source of accurate information, as well as someone who diffuses popular myth with real science pretty regularly.

I have been astounded at how much crappy infromation there is out and about regarding fish and fish keeping. I have been pretty diligent in reading a number of web sights and forums, and even stopped by the library.

Wow what a bunch of BS is floating around.

From LFS's who send people home with snake oil, to a web sight that instructs people "there is no need to test your water, just smell it and splash around with your finger and see how long it takes for the bubbles to burst." (not an actual quote but close enough) there is a pile of false, misleading and harmful information floating around as fact.

I am not so supprised by that as annoyed, the world is plenty full of self styled experts, and there are lots of people getting rich off the nievete of the regular public.
But I am suprised at how little real science has been done (or if it has been done, how little of it has become a part of the public wisdom). How, for instance, did it take as long as it did for someone to isolate the correct nitrifying bacteria, and yet, even now that it has been verified, on at least a dozen different sights that I have read in the last month I have seen the incorrect baceria named.


quote:
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I didn't realize that algae would feed on Ammonia, so that is surely the source of the problem.
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I should have known that... it makes absolute sense... for goodness sake farmers use Ammonia to fertelize feilds. But it seems like when you are new at something like this your brain goes into newbie mode and you have to learn everything from the beginning, even things you know from another area of your life.


I really appreaciate the devotion that you all have shown to giving people helpful and accurate information.

Thanks again,
Ed

[happychem]

Originally posted by pastor.ed
\But it seems like when you are new at something like this your brain goes into newbie mode and you have to learn everything from the beginning, even things you know from another area of your life.

I hear that, it wasn't a year after spending a class studying nitrifying bacteria, and even weeks after the final of another in which they popped up frequently enough, that I started my first tank. And yet somehow I completely missed the relevance. I guess it takes a little mental leap to connect what happens in the oceans to my fish tank, but still...!

I'll second Daveedka in respect for Tom Barr, what he says about plants and planted tanks is gospel IMO, I should also add RTR and DJLen to that list.

[daveedka]

I'll second Daveedka in respect for Tom Barr, what he says about plants and planted tanks is gospel IMO, I should also add RTR and DJLen to that list.

happychem,
I certainly could agree with the names mentioned and I could add you and Morgunda to the list as well as a few others. Knowledge is the key to life, and understanding always reveals facts. This site has brought the hobby to a completely different level for me, and I feel indebted evry day when I look at my tanks.
dave

[happychem]

Aw, shucks!:o

Actually, after I posted that I realized that there really are a lot of people around here who would need to be listed. You, for one, have kept fish for about as long as anyone around here. The knowledge of your experience is not to be overlooked.

[daveedka]

Thank you, compliments are always welcome. Even when I don't feel so desrving. I'm not sure that years of having fish without a lot of knowledge was really that beneficial, but I have been able to apply much of what I've learned to the old days, and better understand the mysteries.
dave