Where to get a sump? Please help...

[valval1029]

Based on my thread "Upgrading to bigger tank....need advice" it seems I need a sump. I appreciate any info!

I'm going to get a 90 gallon tank with overflow. I want somehting simple. I can't make one myself and was wondering where I can purchase one at a reasonable price....

I saw this one--- what do you think? I'm not sure WhAT I need.

This is the best sump you can get! Brand new in box and made in the United States!*
Comes with Catalina Aquarium 600 submersible pump (275 gallons per hour) - To pump water from tank to the sump.*
It also comes with a Catalina Aquarium adjustable 1400 submersible pump to return the filtered water to the aquarium.*
Protein Skimmer is included (great skimmer that gets excellent aspiration from adjustable 1400 Catalina Pump - makes for lots of bubbles, and promotes better filtration). Skimmer works with a 12 blade skimmer impeller that is powered by the adjustable 1400 pump.*
The return tube is fitted with a water tight gasket to always prevent from leakage. The tube is also slotted and has bio balls.*
This mud sump grows plant life extremely well since it comes with a 2 X 13 watt power compact hood with sunlight bulbs (10,000 Kelvin rating). This sump will keep your tank naturally clean healthy and oxygenated. It is the best natural filter on the market today and now it is being offered here at direct wholesale cost for $199.*
Shipping within 48 contingent US states is $25 via insured federal express - We will make sure this unit gets to you in pristine condition.
Dimensions are 14 in high X*8 in wide and 20 in long.

[AW2EOD]

Alright...first off...do not just jump into this. Look around for some info on things before you run out and spend a crap load of money.

You dont need to buy a "sump". It's incredibly easy to make your own. You say you got a 90gal. tank? Here's what you do...

Go and buy a 30gal. tank from a fish store (aprox. $40). Then, either from the same fish store (even though it may be more expensive), or a plant nursery, you buy a pond pump that matches the gph of your overflow box.

Place your 30gal. tank under your stand and run tubing from your overflow box down to this tank. Secure the hose to the tank however convienant. Place the pond pump in the 30gal. tank and connect tubing from the pump back up to your tank. The, fill the sump aprox. 3/4 of the way full and turn on the pond pump. Adjustments will be necessary, but wont be hard. And that, is your homemade (cheaper) sump. I just set one up for my 200gal. tank...homemade, just like I explained to you...and it works wonderfully.

If you need better instructions or clarification, contact me on AOL IM (Distortionist) or email me at garnera80@hotmail.com

[valval1029]

Wow. Sounds easy enough. I thought it had to have different compartments/little sections for water to flow through. (Hard to explain.)

I plan to break down my 30 gallon for the 90 AGA Megaflow I am going to buy. However, I have used copper with the 30. Would I be able to get rid of the copper somehow?

[AW2EOD]

9 times out of 10, you wont be able to get rid of the copper.

You're better off just to go spend a little extra money and buy a new 30gal. tank.

You dont have to have "different compartments" on your sump. What you want to have in the sump is some live rock. That will help with the filtration (live rock being the best natural filtration). In your sump, you'll also have your heater(s) and your protien skimmer (make sure you get one that can stand on it's own and doesnt have to hang on the back of your tank...if you choose to buy one). That way, everything that normally would be hanging on or in the tank is hidden away, underneath your stand. Get a very small powerhead, if you like, to keep your sump in good circulation.

That's basically all you need for a good sump. Easy enough, huh?

The setup that I explained to you in my last post, and in this post, is the EXACT setup that I have for my 200gal.

[valval1029]

I think different "baffles" was the word I was looking for before. Also, I see some have a refugium- what is that for?

If I have 1-1 1/2 pounds of live rock per gallon, should I still put live rock in the sump?

Can I get a 20 gallon or is that too small?

The add in my original post had 2 pumps. I only need one?

Also, should I buy a protein skimmer to keep in there? What type would work best? I don't know much about them.

Thanks,
Val

[ChicoRaton]

buy a pond pump that matches the gph of your overflow box.

Make sure that it matches the gph of your overflow box at the correct amount of head though. something that pumps 400gph at 1 ft head might only pump50gph at 4 feet of head, depending on the design. Measure from the top of your tank to the water level in the sump. that's the amount of head.

[valval1029]

The overflow box is the sump???
Measure from the top of the water in the main tank to the water level in the sump, right?

[mogurnda]

There are a few links that may help explain some of this. Here's one that Cearbhaill pointed out a while back that has been very useful to me: http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

This page will give you a ton of information about different pumps. Want to know what gph your pump will deliver at 4' of head? It's there:http://reefs.org/library/pumps/

Finally, is there any support for the idea that a tank is unusable for inverts if it has been treated with copper? I mean, a good scrubbing will remove it from the glass, and the silicone is a small reservoir. There are traces of copper in water (even RO water) and in the salt mix, so the issue really is whether one can acheive harmful levels from whatever slowly leaches from the silicone. In my own experience, I have never seen mysterious invertebrate deaths that might be traceable to the tank, and I have been using the same tanks for decades.

[OrionGirl]

Copper: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=374173&highlight=removing+copper and http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51989&highlight=copper+silicone

So, I think this gets added to the mythical lore...Which I had believed as well.

[mogurnda]

Nice thread. Although there are many "mythbusters" in the hobby, Randy is one of the few who thinks and researches before he answers. Based on that info, it looks like copper adsorbing to glass can be more of an issue than I thought. On the other hand, any that leaches out will probably be sopped up by all the carbonate in the tank.

Sorry about the hijack.

[Cearbhaill]

valval1029- Slow down and do a bit of research before you commit to anything!!

I am a "little old lady" with no plumbing experience or anything even remotely similar, and I built a sump out of an old aquarium as suggested above- complete with "different compartments/little sections for water to flow through".

Keep reading the links until you understand what you are doing- but you can do it.
Don't limit youself out of simple haste.

[valval1029]

Cearbhaill, could you describe how you did it? Could I use a tank smaller than a 30?

I have found a lot of information here and there. Are the little "compartments/baffles" necessary? What is their purpose?

If anyone can post pics of their sumps (homemade) that would be cool.
What is the refugium for?

[benjen]

A refugium is a place for prey lifeforms to hide from predators and reproduce. This can mean algae, since you have a tang, or it can mean small crustaceans collectively referred to as 'pods that are eaten by many varieties of carnivorous fish.

I think the major problem with using the 30 for a sump has more to do with the fact that it has seven fish in it. It is easier to set up the sump, in my understanding, if you can work with it dry and then do a test run with freshwater before you add salt. The 30 does not have the room to spare at the moment to set up the pump as the fish need every square inch until you can get the 90 set up.

If you check out mogurnda's thread "New 90 gallon: the start", he has a picture of his homemade sump in it.

[mogurnda]

I was a little lazy before, but maybe I should expand a little.

First, there are multiple things you can do with a sump, and you don't need to do all of them.
-It can simply be a place for equipment, like your skimmer, heater, auto-topoff, etc.
-It can be a refugium, where you grow plankton-producing organisms as well as macroalgae that can absorb wastes and stabilize pH.
-It can be a place for a deep sand bed and more live rock.

For my tank, I wanted a place for the skimmer and a refugium. So I designed a sump with two inputs (I split the flow from the overflow), with the water flowing to the return in the middle. I would have loved to use a 30 breeder, but I could only fit a 20 long in the stand.

The baffles can be really important, because the water flowing from your overflow and your skimmer can generate a lot of small bubbles. You want to keep these out of your return pump as much as possible, because they will go back into your tank and be ugly and reduce water clarity. Baffles force the water to take a longer path, allowing bubbles to leave. Purists accept nothing less than 3 baffles per path (see the Melev link I posted, it really is helpful), but I didn't have room for that, so I have a few microbubbles in the main tank.

The other thing baffles do is to keep the water level in a given compartment constant. My skimmer wants to sit in water between 6 and 8 inches deep, so the water going out of its chamber in the sump has to go over a 7" overflow in a baffle. Ta-da, constant water level and constant skimmer efficiency.

The refugium is about 11"X12", and the output baffle keeps the level at 9" deep. I put two 19 watt PC floodlamps over it for the macroalgae, at a cost of about $20.

[Cearbhaill]

To be honest I would have tried to go sumpless if I had not found this website (http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html) that explains everything in wondrous detail. The sump I made is an exact copy of his sump model "E" (http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/sump_model_e.html).

I had my glass baffles cut at a glass shop, and instead of the toothed top of the refugium section I just siliconed a strip of gutterguard.
Mine is pictured on my reef page, but here is the main design

http://www.cearbhaill.com/DSC02836.JPG

There are as many different designs as there are people who have sumps. That's why I advise you to take your time and not rush these decisions. It is much easier to do it before everything is set up than it is to after you have thousands of dollars invested and life in the tank then decide you need to redesign everything.

Hit the website I provided you up above, and read it until you understand things.
It took me many days.

[valval1029]

I see there are many options. Benjen, I wasn't planning to use the 30 I have b/c of the copper that I may not be able to get rid of. I would have to buy a new 30 or 20? for the sump...

It seems some have baffles and some don't. I now have a better idea of the refugium, just not sure how necessary it is.

For the most part, I would like a place to put my heater, etc... and also if I'm correct the water in the main tank won't need to be topped off. I would like to have live rock, a couple of anemones, and mostly fish in my tank. However, if the refugium is beneficial- ok. Also, how important is it to keep live rock in the sump if I have 1-2 lbs per gallon in the main tank. Unless, I put most in the main tank and the balance in the sump.

I still have to read more on the last websites you all gave to me, but if you think of anything I should know or any advice, I would appreciate it.

[oscarlvr]

i purchased 1 of these for my 90 gal, comes complete with pump and every t hing, only 15 mins, and it was running, works great

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46310&item=4321883062

rob

[valval1029]

Hey, I saw those on e-bay, but it's not really a sump, is it???? It's a wet/dry. I'm getting confused... If I take the balls out is it then a sump?

Oscrlvr, look at the description of the first thing I put on this post. That is from e-bay also but is described as a sump....


Val

[valval1029]

Here are two from e-bay... However I may make it myself...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4321187770&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4321676196&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

[oscarlvr]

yes that is a sump, fand a filter too, the pump is 900 gph with a 580gph at 4' head,

rob

[mogurnda]

If you go with a sump/skimmer kit, check to be sure that the skimmer is adequate for a 90. The advantage of building your own is that you can add whatever skimmer you want, as long as it fits in the space.

[valval1029]

OK, I believe I understand the sump (not everything, still have to read more). I am trying to figure out, How does a wet/dry differ? Is it only that the Bio-Balls act as a filter (which arent really needed with 1-2 lbs of live rock per gallon)?

What if I prefer to have only 45 pounds of live rock in a 90 gallon tank, then can I still use a sump but with bio-balls to act as a filter....

I like the idea of live rock as a "filter" but at 90 pounds thats about $450. or more.... Again, could I get some live rock and use a sump or wet/dry with the Bio Balls? It is less money from what I can see. (I don't know what 45 pounds of live rock would look like- how much room it would even take up in the tank...)

I know there are gazillions of ways to do this which is great and yet bad at the same time. Too many choices. It's hard to know the pros and cons of each. I, myself, prefer to keep things simple and for some crazy reason I have more confidence in something I buy to do a certain job than to put it together myself....

Therefore, some things to decide:
1) Do I get 90 or more pounds of live rock to act as a "filter" and use a sump for hiding equipment, maintaining water level??? Don't see if I really need a refugium- do I?

2) Do I just get a wet/dry with Bio-Balls (can I hide equipment in there too?) as filtration and use live rock as a decoration- not needing all 90 pounds.... Some wet/drys have built in skimmer.

Do I have the right idea here? IF I could clear up these couple of things, I would feel much better. Of course, I will keep reading... :confused:

[OrionGirl]

Bio balls, as long as they are submerged, instead of in a drip pan like a wet-dry uses, will be fine--though they won't contribute cover for your fish or bring in diversity of life, like additional rock will. I do not like wet-dry setups--since the bio-balls will also trap solid wastes, but the critters that consume these solid wastes can't go ambling through the bio-ball area (these are not submerged, but rather have water the trickles through it, so the aquatic critters flushed through die and detrivores can't get to the trapped wastes). As a result, you rely on bacteria to break down solid waste, which means you have ammonia produced by more than just your fish and inverts. Also, wet-dry setups do not support the bacteria that consume nitrates, meaning you have to take care of them through alternate means (more frequent water changes, plants, etc). Live rock is the easiest option.

In terms of volume--135 pounds of live rock will probably take up about 40-75% of the tank, depending on the type of rock you get. Denser rock will have less surface area, but take up less space. More porous rock will take up more space, but provides more surface area, so you don't need as much to provide good areas for the bacteria. An average of of 1.5 pounds per gallon should allow you to have lots of open area, in addition to the rock piles needed for happy fish.

Live rock might sound boring and ugly--but it isn't. The good stuff is gorgeous, with lots of micro-inverts that will capture your fancy. People spend hours staring at their rock, finding new things all the time.

[mogurnda]

Here is my 90 with 45 lbs of Florida live rock (plus another 40 of base rock under the sand as support):
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/data/media/10/tank_tbs_2778_r1_crop.jpg

Here it is as of last night, with 90 lbs of live rock:
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/data/media/12/tank083104_2804.jpg

If you use less dense rock, like Fiji, it will fill more of the tank.

[valval1029]

OH! That's looks great! Thanks! I was picturing a lot more rock than that.

So, IF I were to buy one of the following, I could remove the balls and put live rock and use as a sump (putting heater, skimmer, etc...)... (Assuming I don't dare to make my own sump...) Both actually have skimmers and refugiums I think. The third is plain acrylic with nothing in it.. If you have any comments on these models, that would be good, too...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4321676196&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4321187770&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4321901275&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

I won't rush in to buying, per all of your advice! Thanks,
Valerie