Help

[biogirl361]

no matter what i do, my plants grow a little bit and then die! :mad:
right now i have a ten gallon, 2 wpg full spectrum high intensity lights, add Flourish comprehensive supplement to the water column once a week, plenty of bioload to provide some co2 and some nutrients to the substrate. on the less than ideal side i have medium to large sized gravel and do not do additional root fertilizer or additional co2. i am going to add a diy co2 system tonight. my plants are amazon sword, java moss, fountain plant, moneywort, melon sword, Myriophyllum, and some little grass looking plant and a few tufts of dark green cool looking algae that i got the lfs to give me for free :) anyways the plants have been in the tank about 2 to 3 weeks and while they have not died, some of the leaves on them are turning yellow or brown (fountian plant, amazon sword) and/or getting soggy (moneywort). i was under the impression all these plants were decently hardy and would do okay uner 2 watts/gal. but the only ones that seem to be growing much are the myriophyllum . java moss looks about the same as it did 3 weeks ago, and the two swords have put forth a few small leaves, but the small leaves are not growing big, at least not very fast. anyways... how much good do you think co2 injection really does? how much should the tube be bubbling? i don't want to suffocate my fish or give them an acid bath. i want to change the substrate to one of those nutrient sands like onyx or flourite eventually, and put everything back in my 20 gallon, but i probably can't make these changes for at least a few months, if not next year (i am in a dorm and there prob is not room for a 20). i really want my plants to grow, but i have had sereral attempts at this and none successful. btw, i posted this in another thread but didnt get much reponse, has anyone tried putting a standard terrestrial plant light in an aquarium hood? compare: i bought 20 watts of "special" aquarium lights for 20 dollars, and i have a 60 watt regular plant bulb that cost $3.49. i think i am getting ripped off :rant:
alright, this was long, any help for my unsuccessful attempts at planted tank would be appreciated!

[phanmc]

leaves turning yellow is a sign of some sort of nutrient deficiency (iron, potassium, magnesium, etc). Adding CO2 will help the plant grow, but it'll grow yellow without the proper nutrient.

I'm a little confused about the substrate additive you're using. You said that you're not using root fertilizer, so what are you using? Try adding root fertilizer and see if that helps with the yellow leaves.

Java moss grows very slowly even with CO2 injection, though it'll help. You'll see a very noticeable increase in the rest of your plants with CO2. To see how much CO2 you have in your water, test your water for your PH and KH levels. Then compare it to a CO2 chart like the one at TheKrib (http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html).

Regarding lights, the important thing for plants is wattage. The only reason the "aquarium" bulbs cost more is that they usually have higher color temperatures and CRI to make the tank look better (plus they want to make a good profit from you). If you can stand the color that the plant bulbs give off then go for it and save money, your plants won't know the difference. Better yet, look for some full spectrum bulbs rather than the plant bulbs. I'm sure Home Depot or other hardware stores will have those.

[biogirl361]

what nutrient could be missing? i add the flourish, which has K, Mg, Phosphate, and nitrogen and trace elements. :confused: i guess i could try to get some substrate fertilizer while i am waiting on getting a better substrate, but i figured all the junk from my fish would be a pretty good fertilizer... i'm getting so discouraged....

[phanmc]

Dosing Flourish will add trace elements to the water which is enough for some plants but other plants draw their most of their nutrients from their roots. This is where a good substrate or fertilizer tablets are important.

TheKrib has a good page regarding nutrient deficiency:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/nutrient-deficiency.html

[TKOS]

Be aware that swords and often times ferns are gorwn emersed instead of submerged. So when you add them to your tank in a few weeks the leaves generally die off to be replaced by other suitable leaves. This is normal.

Java moss is super slow at growing and then one day many months from now you will be wondering how it ever got that big.

I have a 10 gallon with java fern, moss and a sword. Also be aware that a sword can easily over take your tank if given the proper growing conditions. I add a small amount of ferts each week with a water change but other than that I do nothing. As it is I still cut leaves off of the sword plant every few weeks to keep it smaller.

[biogirl361]

i wish it would take over my tank! alright, so i went out and bought the stuff for diy co2, i will try setting it up tomorrow. i also got a hardness and ph tester. i need a little help figuring out the significance of the readings. hardness was 120 ppm, which i think is around 6.5 dH, not sure what that makes the approximate kH. is this a good buffering capacity for adding co2? also, the pH is apparently 8.4... this is off the CO2 charts i have seen. i guess i don't have to worry about bathing my fish in acid; they will prob appreciate a more neutral water (angelfish and cardinals and some other assorted tetras). so since i have no experience with what these parameters mean. can someone tell me what 6.5 dH and 8.4 pH mean for my CO2 plans? thanks everyone :)

oh ya, i also put some quarter pieces of jobe's sticks under the larger plants. i hope this helps resolve the nutrient problem, we will see how that goes :)

[djlen]

First, I would suggest that you re-read TKO's first paragraph regarding emersed growth. This is probably the problem or some of it. If so, they will begin to grow full sized leaves shortly.
The large diameter substrate is not conducive to many plant's root development and can trap gas, detrimental to the ecology of your tank, over time.
Your plants really didn't need much fertilization for the first few weeks.

There are two different types of 'hardness'. General (gH) and Carbonate kH. When you refer to hardness, which type are you talking about? This is important, because in can be dangerous for your fish, if you inject CO2 with an inadequate buffer(kH of at atleast 3.0°kH). I would suggest that you not inject until sure of your water's kH. If it is indeed 6.5°kH it will be fine for injecting. If the test you performed was for gH, you need to get a kH kit.
Read your pH off the chart that came with your pH test kit.
As previously stated, I don't believe that you have a nutrient problem. Just an issue of plants becoming accustomed to immersed conditions.
I (as many people will tell you:)) am not a big fan of root feeding aquarium plants. I think that they cause as many problems as they cure. The ones that you've placed in your tank must not be disturbed or they will cause real algae issues for you. You may experience these issues anyway with large dia. stone in the tank. If you just placed them in, I suggest you remove them until you get different substrate.

I'd like some clarification on your lighting. Do you have 20watts/Fluorescent and also another 60watt 'bulb' over the tank? If so, it's too much light, IMO. Please explain the lighting further.
Tell us about your fish load(type and numbers) and filtration. I assume that the fish were what you were referring to by 'bioload', correct?
Go here and read 'Setting up a New Planted tank. Then read as many of the other articles as you can to learn:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm

Len

[biogirl361]

lighting is two 10 watt compact flourescent full spectrum bulbs.
fish are one angelfish and 7 tetras, i know everyone thinks the 10 is too small for the angelfish, but he is not full grown yet (top to bottom he only takes a little less than half the height of the tank) and he is only going to be there for a couple months.
the test kit gave hardness as 120 ppm, which i was able to find out converted to 6.5 dH. i am not sure what dH means.
filtration is the kind that hangd over the back and has a tube going into the water. it is rated for 20 gallons, since my normal tank is 20 tall. right now they are temporarily in the 10 gallon because of my new dorm room being rediculously small.
i realize that the gravel isn't really good for plants and mine is not as deep as it should be, it is only like an inch deep. but it is all i have to work with right now, i'll get some of that onyx sand stuff when i move everything back into the 20.
i hope you guys are right about the emersed growth, but it just sucks that it looks like my plants are all going to die before they grow very many new leaves or at least very big of new leaves. i tried to take a picture of my tank but it seems that taking quality pictures is going to be a whole new can of worms to be tackled at a later time!

[djlen]

dH = degrees of hardness. But the question is, is the kit referring to general hardness (gH) or carbonate hardness (kH)?
I have had angels spawn in a 10gal. tank. Not optimum, but do-able. He'll be fine till you can move him.
If you're going to use the 10 in the dorm, why not get a small bag of Onyx and add over top of what you have? It will improve the quality of the over-all substrate for you. 1" is really skimpy for plants anyway. My suggestion would be a light coating over the front sloping up to 2.5 - 3" in the back. The plants would appreciate it.
You have a HOB(hang on back) filter, and will be able to inject through it, once you determine your °kH. In case didn't make myself clear, there are two types of hardness kits....kH and gH. It should say which one you're using right on the box.
Give the plants time to acclimate. Don't pull them.

Len

[biogirl361]

Hey-
So should i cut off all the old leaves when they start turning yellow/getting mushy, or just leave them on there until the new leaves get bigger? there are so many dead leaves, i feel like i will kill the plant if i cut them all.
thanks for everyone's help. when i started this i had no idea that growing plants was going to require so much extra stuff! it is so worth it though, it looks 100x better than fake plants even if the live plants are half dead!
i got the diy co2 going yesterday and i have been monitoring the ph, it has not changed, it is still 8.4, no ph crashes after 24 hours. i'll continue keeping a close eye on it with the test kit and the fish's behavior, since i can't determine what the kH portion of the 6.5 dH is, without buying another 10 dollar kit. how long does it take to see a difference in the plants after adding co2? the recipe i made is producing a burst of 4 to 5 small bubbles out of the airstone every 6 seconds or so. i put some jave moss around the tube above the airstone and it catches bubbles so they have more time to dissolve, plus the java moss looks pretty with all the bubbles on it!
so as far as i can tell, the only thing i should have that i don't is a good substrate. i will work on that when i get my old tank back in a couple months.
thanks again for the help.

edited to add more q's: if you have a flourite or onyx sand substrate, do you still fertilize the substrate, or do those sands have the nutrients in them already?

[djlen]

If you run the CO2 tube into the bottom of the intake siphon tube the bubbles will be crushed by the impeller and dispersed into the water table for better absorption.
Keep your water level as high as possible to cut down on the filter return causing surface disturbance that will gas off the CO2 you are injecting.
You have to be careful when using an air stone, as they have a tendency to clog over time and should be periodically replaced. The filter intake is a better option.
As to the leaves. Remove them gently when they get mushy and are obviously lending no benefit to the plant.

Len