ICH And SALTWATER

puresouthern

puresouthern

AC Members
Oct 20, 2004
35
0
0
Central Florida
I know I'm new here and probably overstepping my bounds but going thru this site and seeing ICH thread after ICH thread I'm a little concerned. I've never seen such a controversy treatment passed out like candy. THat and raisint the temp to unsafe level such as 86F. For the ones of you battling ICH right now read this article http://www.aquamaniacs.net/ich.html Scroll down and see what it says about what NOT to do. There is numerous articles such as this. More so than that recommend this as a treatment. For those of you aquariast that do use it, while it may have gotten rid of your ich how many fish did you lose, giving salt to fish who doesnt swim in salt water? ( with the exception of fishes like Mollies who can) Now with this article it suggest Rid ICH. Many other articles will tell you find your stress, fish dont have meds in the wild. Thats your wallet and you'll have to base your own opinion. But this was an excellent article one of the best and I followed it to the letter without meds and putting my carbon back in by finding the ORIGINATION OF THE STRESS. Before you go using salt or jacking up that heater please read this. Its common sense.
 
I've used the salt and temp treatment on a variety of fish, including sensitive species. The use of salt in a FW setup full time is certainly not recommended, but it does have uses for specific treatments. If you'd paid attention, you'd realize that the dose indicated here is above that 'commonly used' level referenced in the article--which is of course a ridiculous endorsement of adding salt to a FW tank. Interesting--you don't consider formalin a medication? I've never lost a single fish using this treatment.

While I appreciate what you're saying, I think your tone is a bit officious.

And FYI, mollies prefer hard water, not salted water.
 
OrionGirl said:
I've used the salt and temp treatment on a variety of fish, including sensitive species. The use of salt in a FW setup full time is certainly not recommended, but it does have uses for specific treatments. If you'd paid attention, you'd realize that the dose indicated here is above that 'commonly used' level referenced in the article--which is of course a ridiculous endorsement of adding salt to a FW tank. Interesting--you don't consider formalin a medication? I've never lost a single fish using this treatment.

While I appreciate what you're saying, I think your tone is a bit officious.

And FYI, mollies prefer hard water, not salted water.
Click to expand...


Officious or not, I think the over use of this particular treatment is officious. Even though I'm equally aware that you and others are only trying to help. You've never lost a fish. YOUR lucky, I've met many more that have. Its a riskier treatment than others out there and shouldnt be doled out the way it is here. Its very misleading. And yes I did stop using meds. After to going thru umpteen bottles of ICH meds and fish dying and not getting better you bet. I had umpteen chemicals to up this, lower that. No more. I use a water conditioner and stress coat only. Combined with consistant water changes. And now the fish are lively and doing well and I stopped using fish.

As for the mollies. Heres a quote from Tropical Tank: You'll find that most sites say this:

These fish are often regarded as essentially brackish, but can survive in fresh, brackish, or even full marine conditions if acclimatised gradually. Although often considered beneficial, the addition of salt to the water is not essential as long as the water is hard and alkaline. If salt is added, it should ideally be marine salt, rather than general aquarium tonic salts. The tank should not however be routinely salted if it is a mixed community containing soft water fishes. Several colour varieties are available - including silver, mottled and speckled varieties, and the popular black molly.

Now if you read that, the water only need to be HARD and ALKALINE if NO SALT IS present.

The treatment of salt is very misleading even with me being a newb and doing the RESEARCH, I was able to come to what is a common sense conclusion.

For these other new people I can identify with the frustration they are feeling at not being able to rid themselves of this parasite and losing fish.
 
Last edited:
Ok, you've pointed somewhere that says salt isn't required in freshwater aquariums. Fine. But you haven't shown anything to indicate short-term exposure to salt is in any way harmful to fish or even that it's not beneficial. On the contrary, many have had great success with it. Saying that salt shouldn't be used and backing it up are two different things.
 
But the site you link to indicates to use a medication. You're saying follow this site, but don't use a medication--which means you're not even following your own idea.

I can find a link for mollies being kept in full marine conditions, and for neons in brackish. Does that make it right?
 
cgrabe said:
Ok, you've pointed somewhere that says salt isn't required in freshwater aquariums. Fine. But you haven't shown anything to indicate short-term exposure to salt is in any way harmful to fish or even that it's not beneficial. On the contrary, many have had great success with it. Saying that salt shouldn't be used and backing it up are two different things.
Click to expand...



Obviously you didnt read the very FIRST post where there was an article posted. Since you missed it the title of the article is "treating ich" heres an excerpt:

What not to do:
There are a number of interesting approaches that aquarists employ to battle Ich. Here is a short list of things NOT to do:

Do not add salt. Salt at levels commonly used in freshwater aquariums will not help to cure your fish of Ich. Salt is for saltwater or brackish water tanks. Treating Ich in saltwater, brackish and pond environments is outside the scope of this article.
Do not increase the temperature (keep the temperature under 80*F/26.5*C). Ich cannot survive at temperatures greater than 86*F/26.5*C, but your fish may not do well at these high temperatures. A higher temperature will make oxygen harder to come by and will increase your fish's need for it. Low oxygen and high temperature levels are stressful to fish. It is especially dangerous to raise the temperature without using an Ich medication. The higher temperatures will accelerate the Ich lifecycle and if you do not have an anti-Ich medication well on board, this may lead to an overwhelming Ich infection and death.


If anyone bothers to research you will find MANY articles such as this that far out number the advice of salt water being doled out here. Will you find salt as advice. YEP thats where the conflict comes in.Did some make out ok YEP. But common sense if applied will tell you not to put a freshwater fish into salt water no matter what is considered "safe levels"
 
puresouthern said:
Obviously you didnt read the very FIRST post where there was an article posted. Since you missed it the title of the article is "treating ich" heres an excerpt:
Click to expand...
Actually I did read it.

What not to do:
...Do not add salt. Salt at levels commonly used in freshwater aquariums will not help to cure your fish of Ich. Salt is for saltwater or brackish water tanks. Treating Ich in saltwater, brackish and pond environments is outside the scope of this article.
Click to expand...

I see advice but not a bit of reasoning. Why not add salt? Are they supposed to be authoritative because they can add text to a web page? I'd like a bit more than that.

Do not increase the temperature (keep the temperature under 80*F/26.5*C). Ich cannot survive at temperatures greater than 86*F/26.5*C, but your fish may not do well at these high temperatures. A higher temperature will make oxygen harder to come by and will increase your fish's need for it. Low oxygen and high temperature levels are stressful to fish. It is especially dangerous to raise the temperature without using an Ich medication. The higher temperatures will accelerate the Ich lifecycle and if you do not have an anti-Ich medication well on board, this may lead to an overwhelming Ich infection and death.
Click to expand...
Accelerating the lifecycle is exactly why the temperature is raised. The point is to push the parasites along into their vulnerable state. As far as the fish's health, you can tell if they're not getting enough oxygen and deal with it in a number of ways.

If anyone bothers to research you will find MANY articles such as this that far out number the advice of salt water being doled out here. Will you find salt as advice. YEP thats where the conflict comes in.Did some make out ok YEP. But common sense if applied will tell you not to put a freshwater fish into salt water no matter what is considered "safe levels"
Click to expand...
Repetition doesn't make it right. I want some evidence.
 
OrionGirl said:
But the site you link to indicates to use a medication. You're saying follow this site, but don't use a medication--which means you're not even following your own idea.

I can find a link for mollies being kept in full marine conditions, and for neons in brackish. Does that make it right?
Click to expand...


I think you just made my point. You may find instance where it worked, but doesnt make it right. And when you can find just as many if not MORE expert advice on NOT to do it, that would make it conflicting and controversial. Why dole it out like candy when there are much safer methods.

As for you saying that I'm not following my own idea, I put this up somewhere else for you I'll gues I'll put it up again. I did numerous research. COMBINING this article (which was one of the best) with the other articles I found on "treating the stress" I combined in my own judgement. I had already been throught umpteen bottles or ICH I wasnt going there again. They didnt work. So applying "fish dont have meds and finding the source of the stress" combined with the water changing of this one article also diligently rinsing all equipment after, along with a strong temp (within safety)....I mean 86?? why make a fish struggle like that?

While I didnt follow along with the Rid Ich, at that point was too frustrated, I followed everything else..............and its alot safer than doling out such a controversial treatment such as salt...........I'm betting you can find numerous people that put a fresh water fish in salt water and had success........to quote you "does it make it right" A fresh water fish is a fresh water fish, some have higher tolerances yes, but why further stress a fish. JMO I think its very misleading to the newbs here that this treatment is being doled out like candy. When you are new to it and overwhelmed with all the info and conflicting info you'll pretty much take any advice as the gospel. Thats where research comes in and taking all the evidence and advice out there comes into play and you use sound judgement. But Im not seeing anything beside one course of action here.......and a risky one at that no matter how many people have had success with it.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

And I really hope you othe newbs google and yahoo and intake all the info both pros and cons there is SAFER treatments than give your freshwater fish salt water to further there stress........and raising your tank to 86F, fighting to breathe furthers stress.
 
Okay, my turn to rant ;) (sorry it's so long, I guess I had more to say than I thought)

As a newbie, this thread is very concerning too me and it is because of these types of situations that I tend to get very anxious. Now if the thread were actually trying to narrow down to some good alternatives cures, I can buy that - make a judgement of what will work best for me and do my best for my fish when (hopefully never) the time comes. This however, seems more like an "I'm right, you're wrong" thing. Now I need to do research not only on the issue but the credibility of the posters - which isn't what I want to get into.

I understand that there are many approaches to medication, fishkeeping, cycling, whatever... but that's why we (I) are here - to learn. I understand that everyone doesn't have all the answers but I do know that I have already got some great advice from experienced fishkeepers. Do I expect everything they tell me to be perfect - no. But it is much better than what I know. I too have done research - 3 years of it as I could not get a tank till now. I was still not prepared to deal with things as I thought I would since it does take experience and there are a number of things that can go wrong.

So my thoughts are these: are there meds in the wild? - no. But then we aren't in the wild and we keep fish from all over the world in the same simulated environment for which they were never intended. I have now become their mother (nature) and thus must take care of them the way I know how and it may include medications just as I would my dog or cat if they needed it. The first native americans didn't need meds either until us white guys came over.

I don't want anyone to take this post the wrong way but please remember that there are always alternatives methods to everything. I for one have too (and I mean have too) assume that the experienced people on this site have fish and fishkeepers best interests at heart so I need to trust them. Otherwise I'll be spending all my time researching as my fish suffer. You said it yourself, there is so much out there - pro and con and I just can't digest it all - which is why I come here. my uninformed 2 cents
 
AquaDummy said:
Okay, my turn to rant ;) (sorry it's so long, I guess I had more to say than I thought)

As a newbie, this thread is very concerning too me and it is because of these types of situations that I tend to get very anxious. Now if the thread were actually trying to narrow down to some good alternatives cures, I can buy that - make a judgement of what will work best for me and do my best for my fish when (hopefully never) the time comes. This however, seems more like an "I'm right, you're wrong" thing. Now I need to do research not only on the issue but the credibility of the posters - which isn't what I want to get into.

I understand that there are many approaches to medication, fishkeeping, cycling, whatever... but that's why we (I) are here - to learn. I understand that everyone doesn't have all the answers but I do know that I have already got some great advice from experienced fishkeepers. Do I expect everything they tell me to be perfect - no. But it is much better than what I know. I too have done research - 3 years of it as I could not get a tank till now. I was still not prepared to deal with things as I thought I would since it does take experience and there are a number of things that can go wrong.

So my thoughts are these: are there meds in the wild? - no. But then we aren't in the wild and we keep fish from all over the world in the same simulated environment for which they were never intended. I have now become their mother (nature) and thus must take care of them the way I know how and it may include medications just as I would my dog or cat if they needed it. The first native americans didn't need meds either until us white guys came over.

I don't want anyone to take this post the wrong way but please remember that there are always alternatives methods to everything. I for one have too (and I mean have too) assume that the experienced people on this site have fish and fishkeepers best interests at heart so I need to trust them. Otherwise I'll be spending all my time researching as my fish suffer. You said it yourself, there is so much out there - pro and con and I just can't digest it all - which is why I come here. my uninformed 2 cents
Click to expand...


These types are great for TALKIN to others that have been at it longer than you and you are right they have the posters best interest at heart. But its to get THERE experience and what has worked best for them and it may or may not always be the best alternative. You said do research or check the credibility of the poster.......my answer do the research. Yes its time consuming and often very overwhelming. But its so you dont take advice blindly and run with it.

My further advice. This forum caught my eye because it was a litle more relaxed. But there is alot of forums out there with really informed fishkeepers. this is the first site I have seen that doles out the salt water treatment for ICH. Are they right and it can work? Sure. Is it the safest no. Should other treatments also be recommended yea, you bet. It isnt about whos right and wrong because we both are. this is about whats best for the fish and what I believe is strongly misleading to new fishkeepers such as myself.

My personal experience was to treat the STRESS and stop meds. But I wont recommend that latter to you. That you will have to decipher on your own and what you feel comfortable with. Whether you agree with Fish dont have meds in teh wild or not. Many of tropical fish are caught WILDLY not bred.


And you should know that MANY of your top rated forums will not even answer your questions until you do research on your own. Its in your fishes best interest and your success as a fishkeeper as opposed to a fish haver.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
AquariaCentral.com
Top Bottom