View Full Version : Another Water Chemistry question
What am I looking at here? Last night the ammonia levels were 8ppm. Today 10 minutes after doing a 7gals water change (tank is 20gals) the ammonia levels was 1ppm. So I believe that the ammonia level is dropping by itself (even if I had change ½ the tank would it not be at 4ppm if there was nothing going on in the tank) But the Nitrite level is still 0ppm and the Nitrate level is still 0ppm. I have plants in the tank could that be eating up the Nitrites and Nitrates?
Sponge Bob
12-15-2004, 7:16 PM
You probably have ammonia buffers in your tap water which would explain your results. That's the only thing I can think of.
SB
mayreee
12-15-2004, 7:46 PM
I don't think that is right. Wait for some more experienced members to help out.
Plants will consume ammonia, but I wouldn't expect that much that quick, maybe some planted guys can help there. There are lots of possibilities here so hard to say what the problem is - for example the nitrite test could be faulty (does happen). Have you ever had a positive NO2 test. I assume it's a new test kit. I haven't been following the thread on your tank real well, so need to get the history straight... This is a new tank up for about a week, right? You were doing a fishless cycle? With plants in the tank? Just to clarify...
Ok the tank is a new setup I started it on the 5th, the ammonia has spiked off the chart. I only got it back on the chart yesterday at 8ppm. The Nitrite is a liquid test, and I have not gotten a positive test yet. I just did another ammonia test and got a result of 1ppm ( can repost tomorrow with the results ) so I don't think there is anything in the tap water. I am doing a fishless cycle (I don't think any fish would have been able to survive how high the ammonia spiked to, I could not even measure it) for plants I have 2 Dwarf Anubias' and about 18 Elodia's. I put the plants in last wednessday, I did not start testting the tank stuff till sunday (probably a mistake when it came to the plants, but they seem to be fine still, infact on a stem I got that had no leafs on it when I got it, I see 4 new leafs coming in) pH is 7.8 in the tank (also that is what it is coming out of the tap)
At this stage it should just be a matter of doing daily test and that should give you some idea what's happening. No fish to worry over so just a matter of following through the fishless cycle. To me you should be getting nitrites 'real soon now'... Getting nitrAtes seems to be a slightly longer process... ie nitrites in the first week or two then another 3 or 4 weeks before the nitrite levels start to drop.
Not sure what is causing the odd readings, but maybe something else in the water chemistry...
anonapersona
12-15-2004, 11:32 PM
I'll guess the plants are sucking up the ammonia.
particularly if they get good light and are floating.
What on earth are "ammonia buffers"?
amosf
12-16-2004, 12:39 AM
What on earth are "ammonia buffers"?
Yeah I was going to ask that but then thought better of it :)
Sponge Bob
12-16-2004, 6:53 AM
I don't think that is right. Wait for some more experienced members to help out.
Sorry, I guess my chemistry degree is not enough for a giving an hypothesis on a chemistry question.
:rolleyes:
Sponge Bob
12-16-2004, 7:05 AM
What on earth are "ammonia buffers"?
A buffer is a solution that can keep its relative acidity or alkalinity constant, i.e., keep its pH constant, despite the addition of strong acids or strong bases. Buffer solutions are frequently solutions that contain either a weak acid and one of its salts or a weak base and one of its salts. Many acid-base reactions take place in living organisms. However, for organisms to perform certain vital functions, the body fluids associated with these functions must maintain a constant pH. For example, blood must maintain a pH of close to 7.4 in order to carry oxygen from the lungs to cells; blood is therefore a powerful buffer.
Ammonia is alkaline.
Hope that answers your question. But like I said, it's just an hypothesis.
SB
As I promised an update on the readings this morrning, Ammonia 1ppm and Nitrites 0ppm. So it looks like nothing has happend over night.
russjet
12-16-2004, 9:36 AM
two suggestions
1) have you tested the tap water after dechlorinating it for ammonia
2)it may be worth taking your water for testing to your local lfs see if their results are the same as yours
are you still adding ammonia to the tank and still only getting 1ppm with no nitrites
1) Yes I did test it. and it came out to be 0ppm
I have stoped adding ammonia, and I am not going to do any water changes for now. but I have put some fish food in there, so the decay of the fish food should be adding to the ammonia.
russjet
12-16-2004, 9:47 AM
sorry just read thread again and saw the tap reading
only suggestion is get your lfs to test and see how that is
do you have access to any tanks that are cycled pinch some filter media if you can
maybe worth asking your lfs for some gravel or filter squeezings to introduce some established nitrites
see if that might help your cycle get kickstarted
good luck
:idea2: or try getting hold of some biospira and save yourself the problems related to cycling with or without fish ;)
Sponge - I do know what buffers are, but I am unaware of the existance on any such thing as an "ammonia buffer".
Buffer sytems, other than bicarbonate/carbonate which is the natural buffering systems of FW water in the wild, are not of much use in tanks. They are not very effective or lasting, and can cause more problems than they resolve. Fish are not particularly sensitive to pH and adapt to most pH levels within normal ranges, but they are sensitive to osmolarity. Fish eggs can be much more sensitive to pH than are the fish themselves.
happychem
12-16-2004, 4:27 PM
Mike, what's your pH and KH? If your pH crashes, your cycle will stall. Since your ammonia was off the charts, this was probably what stalled you to start with.
If I read your post correctly, you've got a 20g tank which had about 8ppm NH3 in it. You then changed roughly half the water (20g tank probably only holds 18-19g of water depending on how deep your substrate it), so you expect about 4ppm NH3. But instead, you got 1ppm.
I'm guessing that the 8ppm test was the day before and the 1ppm post-wc was about 24 hours later?
Anona's got it. Elodia/Egeria densa aka. anacharis is a huge nutrient sponge, that's where your missing ammonia went.
If I read the post correctly, you're trying to find out where your NH3 went, not came from, since you know that you're adding it. :P It seems that that got lost somewhere along the way...
FYI, plants and fishless cycles do not go together very well, usually a recipe for algae.
pH is 7.8 that is the pH of the tap water also. I have not had a pH crash, I don't have a K tester, maybe I should get one, I just got home from work and did another test ammonia 1ppm, Nitrites 0ppm and pH was 7.8. I have had the plants in there for 1 week and 1 day so far. The tank has been going for 1 week and 4 days now.
Also the odd thing is even when the ammonia was of the charts the pH stayed at 7.8.
happychem
12-16-2004, 6:34 PM
With a pH of 7.8, you've probably got decently buffered water. I meant KH, not K, btw.
MikeO
12-17-2004, 12:12 AM
OK I don't know what KH is eather, Nor did the test kit I got have a test for it. :-( My question is how important is KH, should I be running out to get a test kit for that too. The test kit I got came with tests for ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH, and High pH.
happychem
12-17-2004, 8:07 AM
If your pH is stable and (once cycled) you are diligent with water changes, you can do without it for now. It is especially useful in diagnosing pH 'problems' and absolutely necessary before monkeying with CO2.
Ultimately, you'll want one, but you can get away with it for now.
KH refers to 'carbonate hardness', it is more accurately, alkalinity, the sum of all the strong bases in solution, less the amount of H+. Since tank water is more or less neutral H+ and OH- concentrations cancel out and carbonate and bicarbonate are left as the dominant sources of alkalinity.
I think that it's laid out in detail in the "water chemistry" article if you want a little more in depth.
RTR, I think that Sponge Bob mean Ammonium chloride used as a buffer in the tap water, but I'm not positive
MikeO
12-17-2004, 10:30 AM
Yet another update, the Ammonia has dropping to .5ppm, I have noticed a lot of growth on one of the plants. Nitrites are not really showing up, but the color of the test has darkened a bit, not enough for it to be on the color bar of the result card, but it has darkened ever so slightly, so I guess things are starting to move again