Hybridization in progress...UGH!!

[RyJ]

Any opinions?

[labont865]

It is all up to you man. Lots of people here and everywhere for that matter, dont agree with hybridization. If you dont have a problem with it than go for it. You need to know that you probably will never be able to sell the fish to an LFS, you will probably have to do it through the newspaper or something. And the offspring probably wont be really healthy and wont have a very long lifespan. But then again they could turn out to be awesome fish and you might find an LFS who will take them just cause they may look cool. So again it is totally up to you.

[daveedka]

I voted to allow them to spawn and see what they look like, However there are so many factors involved in this that it really is tough. If you don't wish to house and raise fry, Don't wish to kill baby fish later etc. you might want to kill the eggs and make life easy on yourself.
Dave

[N8DOGG]

free food

[RyJ]

It is all up to you man. Lots of people here and everywhere for that matter, dont agree with hybridization. If you dont have a problem with it than go for it. You need to know that you probably will never be able to sell the fish to an LFS, you will probably have to do it through the newspaper or something. And the offspring probably wont be really healthy and wont have a very long lifespan. But then again they could turn out to be awesome fish and you might find an LFS who will take them just cause they may look cool. So again it is totally up to you.

The LFS in this area (Pets Unlimited) doesn't have any morals at all...they'd take the fish from me...and sell them...assuming the fish would survive in their poor excuse for fish tanks.
I'm not willing to let anyone have these fry though...I don't agree with hybridized fish, for the simple reason that people are not responsible with them.

[Oscar_Mania]

Any hybrid fry that I get become Oscar and JD food.

[blueturq]

I would grow a few out and see what they turn out like.

If you have alot of them then you could use them as feeders, but even if that were the case I would still keep a few.

Don't seperate the pair, that's cruel IMO, if they chose eachother then leave it alone.

Do I seperate you from dating, say.... an asian girl?, no

See where I'm getting at?

But all of this is entirely up to you.

[thechurro]

a white guy and an asian girl is not wrong. all humans are the same species. when two different species breed that becomes a problem. it causes a decrease in all around genetic diversity and eventually the extinction of the thwo individual species. this may not be as big of a deal since it is in an aquarium, but if one of those fish happen to get to a pet store it could (potentially) cause the loss of a species to the aquatic hobbies. not that it hasn't happened many times before, but do you want to be responsible for that
?

[RyJ]

I would grow a few out and see what they turn out like.

If you have alot of them then you could use them as feeders, but even if that were the case I would still keep a few.

Don't seperate the pair, that's cruel IMO, if they chose eachother then leave it alone.

Do I seperate you from dating, say.... an asian girl?, no

See where I'm getting at?

But all of this is entirely up to you.


I can easily separate them without even removing them from the tank. All I need to do in put another convict or another rio grand cichlid in there...and this 'hybrid pair' will break up on its own....because naturally they have the URGE to spawn with their own species. (hybridization of Central American cichlids in the WILD is EXTREMELY rare...if it even happens at all)

[RyJ]

a white guy and an asian girl is not wrong. all humans are the same species. when two different species breed that becomes a problem. it causes a decrease in all around genetic diversity and eventually the extinction of the thwo individual species. this may not be as big of a deal since it is in an aquarium, but if one of those fish happen to get to a pet store it could (potentially) cause the loss of a species to the aquatic hobbies. not that it hasn't happened many times before, but do you want to be responsible for that
?


Well said. :)

Actually there are species of cichlids in the world that are becoming very difficult to get...as 100% pure.
My neighbour bought two Convicts....they spawned...and the fry turned out all messed up. She went back to the pet store and they were like "Oops...ya, the male convict has some Jack Dempsey in him."

The Flowerhorn is a total mess, IMO...

[gonefishin]

a white guy and an asian girl is not wrong. all humans are the same species. when two different species breed that becomes a problem. it causes a decrease in all around genetic diversity and eventually the extinction of the thwo individual species. this may not be as big of a deal since it is in an aquarium, but if one of those fish happen to get to a pet store it could (potentially) cause the loss of a species to the aquatic hobbies. not that it hasn't happened many times before, but do you want to be responsible for that
?
I wouldn't care if a white guy wanted to hook up with an asian monkey ;)

[Haggisman]

Cons and texas spawn quite a readily, the offspring look like dull texas cichlids with faint stripes.Its up to you, maybe use the fry as feeders and keep a couple to see how they turn out.

I have a Pink Con(F) and Sajicia(M) with wrigglers just now and I'm going to keep them and see how they turn out.I do like hybrids though but none of my fry will ever be given away.

*edit*

Heres a pic of a Texas x Con (under the jag).
http://community.webshots.com/photo/83305157/83309444VnYGkE

[Haggisman]

I can easily separate them without even removing them from the tank. All I need to do in put another convict or another rio grand cichlid in there...and this 'hybrid pair' will break up on its own....because naturally they have the URGE to spawn with their own species. (hybridization of Central American cichlids in the WILD is EXTREMELY rare...if it even happens at all)

Actually thats not 100% true I have heard quite a few time of fish hybridising even though there is a perfectally good mate of thier own species in the tank and some species of fish DO cross naturally in the wild.In any river near me that has roach, rudd and bream theres a quite a high chance you will catch a hybrid of either species.

[RyJ]

Cons and texas spawn quite a readily, the offspring look like dull texas cichlids with faint stripes.Its up to you, maybe use the fry as feeders and keep a couple to see how they turn out.

I have a Pink Con(F) and Sajicia(M) with wrigglers just now and I'm going to keep them and see how they turn out.I do like hybrids though but none of my fry will ever be given away.

*edit*

Heres a pic of a Texas x Con (under the jag).
http://community.webshots.com/photo/83305157/83309444VnYGkE

Well...it'll be interesting to see what my fry turn out to look like since #1 - it's a RIO GRANDE (not a Texas)...and #2 - a pink convict (with a lot of red, since it's female), not a zebra.

[RyJ]

Actually thats not 100% true I have heard quite a few time of fish hybridising even though there is a perfectally good mate of thier own species in the tank and some species of fish DO cross naturally in the wild.In any river near me that has roach, rudd and bream theres a quite a high chance you will catch a hybrid of either species.


Well it's nice that you 'heard' that from other people talking...but I tend to go on information that I read from studies and from school.
Ive had hybrid pairs of cichlids in my tanks a few times before...and have successfully prevented them from spawning...just by adding another fish which was the same species as one of the fish in the hybrid pair.

Yes, it is well known that some fish do hybridize in the wild (ex: some Africans)...but I do believe I was talking about 'Central American Cichlids', not the fish in rivers that are close to you...
*re-reads*
Yup, that's what I put. :)

[a7oneal]

I'm actually interested in this topic from a scientific as well as a hobbyist point of view (I thought about doing graduate work on cichlids before I decided on pollination ecology... you never know, I may go back). You say that you get your information about the lack of Central American cichlid hybrids from things you've read or learned in school. Do you have some sources I can check out? I don't mean to put you on the spot.

There are so many factors that could influence the hybridization rates of species, and I'd be interested to see any surveys, particularly those involving genetics, performed in Central and South America. It makes sense that hybridization rates would be lower in nature. You never know, though, what happens in one pond or river is probably different than what happens in another pond or river.... there may be places in Central America where hybrids show up like "...fish in rivers that are close to you," especially in these days of large-scale exotic introductions and habitat disturbance.

If you try it, I'd like to hear if you were able to break the pair bond by introducing another member of one of the species like you did before. It's all interesting from a behavioral standpoint.

[Haggisman]

Well...it'll be interesting to see what my fry turn out to look like since #1 - it's a RIO GRANDE (not a Texas)...and #2 - a pink convict (with a lot of red, since it's female), not a zebra.

Herichthys cyanoguttatum (aka the true texas cichlid) yes?And the fish in the pic I posted was a cross of these two not the green texas cichlid(Herichthys carpinte).The fact that the female convict is pink shouldnt really make a difference as the texas cichlid does not carry the cons pink genes although you never know(my BP x Pink cons turned out mostly like striped cons with a greenish base colouration).As for central americans breeding in the wild, it probably doesnt happen often, if it does the unfertile fish wouldnt last too long anyway.

At the moment I actually have a female pink con with fry and the father is a sajica so I'm interested to see how the mix will look like.

If you are keeping any Ryj keep us updated!!!

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

it might be the angle but that jag dont look right either

[fish_freak]

Again about the fish in nature crossing this is quite true. I am an avid fisherman and there has been a lot of talk lately about the a new hybrid in Lake Champlain in Vermont. It is a cross between a Nothern Pike and a Chain Pickeral. The pics I have seen are quite intresting. The Vermont DEM is studying these fish now to see if they can determine why they are hybridzing but it does happen in nature natrualy.

[ChileRelleno]

I'm staunchly against the 'trade' of hybrids.
Just try to find a true Trimac with all the flowerhorn crap out there, without paying top dollar to a breeder/importer.
The same thing is starting to happen to alot of Tetras and others fish too and then sold to the ignorant masses.
But, hybrids do occur in nature if rarely and quite commonly in captive aquaria, if the breeder is responsible enough to keep his hybrid charges in check (off the market, out of the wild and out of the increasingly endangered gene pools of true species.) then I don't have a problem with the breeder keeping a few for their own tanks.
Other than that they need to be either aborted, culled or the adults not allowed to breed at all.

[Toirtis]

free food

Bingo.

[Womby]

i say get rid of most of the eggs but try and save 1 or 2 just to see what they look like but dont take them to a LFS as some one will buy then and breed then and that is not cool

[fish_freak]

So any updates on the fry? Would be cool to see a pic of a Carpinte and a pink convict.

[managuay86]

i said keep um just to see what they look like but thats me

[liv2padl]

my opinion:

the hybridization of fish, most notably cichlids, is largely confined to captive bred cichlids. Central American cichlasomines, Lake Malawi mbuna and Haplochromines or Lake Victoria cichlids will all readily crossbreed in the home aquarium if not provided with appropriate mates. hybrids appear to be rare in the wild due to natural ecological barriers.

The accidental hybridization of cichlids is a common problem in the hobby and most responsible aquarists cull the fry or eggs. the creation of hybrids for profit, and their unscrupulous marketing as a 'new species' of cichlid is considered very poor husbandry and should not be condoned.

The intentional creation of hybrids has a number of negative aspects:

"Money" is more important than the fish's health. Sadly with the immense pressure on marketers to create "something new" for consumer demand often results in cosmetic/surgical mutilation of fishes. The removal of the fishes fins or tail is not uncommon. from the minimal amount of scar tissue surrounding the removed appendage it must be assumed that this is undertaken when the fish are still developing (under 1 cm). This process must, by its nature, be devastating on the fishes health, and it is reasonable to assume that many fishes do not survive to adulthood. There is also an issue of "quality of life" to be considered - hybrid cichlids, such as the red blood parrot, have deformed jaws and swim bladder problems. Cichlids are reknowned for high intelligence and complex behavioural patterns, such that gross anatomical deformities, impinge on the normal behaviours of the fish.

Philosopical and ethical concerns. many hobbyists, me in included, dislike hybrids because their deliberate creation demonstrates a certain amount of arrogance -- the idea that we can improve upon natural beauty. there are currently over 1500 species of cichlids in the wild. this is a large amount of naturally occuring diversity and it seems unnecessary to create hybrids just because it can be done. this natural diversity is fundamental to the attraction most people have for the cichlid keeping hobby. the creation of designer "Franken-fish" detracts from the natural diversity present in this assemblage of fishes.

The diversity of cichlid species is such that identification is a fundamentally difficult thing at best, and to confuse the issue with fish that do not exist in the wild makes it an nearly impossible task.

Perhaps of most concern is the way hybrid cichlids like the flowerhorn or 'blood parrot' could be mistakenly identified as "pure" cichlid species. It is conceiveable that poor quality flowerhorns, could be mistaken for cichlids such as A. trimaculatus or A. citrinellus and bred back with the original species. this has already occured in cichlids such as Vieja synspilus, V. maculicauda and V. bimaculatus, and this only due to accidental hybridization by hobbyists. with the deliberate large scale production of hundreds of thousands of hybrids, the risk to the hobby is increased many times over. In Australia at present it is very difficult to find good "pure" strains of the Vieja species mentioned above or "pure" discus species such as the brown discus.

reintroduction of cichlids in the hobby into natural settings can become a problem. it already is in Florida. with the threat to many ecosystems globally, the cichlid hobby may provide future sources of endangered fish for re-introduction into the wild. It is therefore important that all cichlid keepers are aware that the fish we maintain in our aquaria are potentially endangered in the wild, due to a variety of factors eg: competition from other species such as the Nile Perch and urban development. In this awareness it is important to strive - wherever possible, to maintain cichlids in our aquariums as they exist in the wild.

Specimen firehorns are created by hybridizing certain cichlid species and culling heavily to leave only those fish with a certain appearance. These resulting fish, although they may be fertile, do not represent genetically stable bloodlines and, when bred to each other, wind up generating a random hodge-podge of mongrel fish which may or may not display the characteristics of their parents, but are almost certain to suffer from various maladies and as a result die at an earlier age.

So why do people keep producing hybrid fish? A one word answer applies here: marketing.

In summary:

1. the demand for "new" and "different" breeds of hybrids such as the flowerhorn and the "blood parrot" has lead to a number of cruel practices including tattooing of fish, removal of tails or eyes, intentional damage to the spine and dying.

2. hybrid fish make identification of similar cichlids difficult.

3. hybrid cichlids have the potential to be acidentally bred with "pure" species lines.

4. the cichlid keeping hobby has responsibilities to the fish it is dedicated to, in ecological terms. although not currently standard practice, pure species may, in the future, be required for re-introduction to habitats currently under threat from urban development.

5. some hybrid fish exhibit particularly deformed anatomical features which lead to troubles feeding, swimming and undertaking behaviour normal to these fishes. this is of considerable moral and ethical concern.

what should you do to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem? JUST SAY NO to hybridization by not buying such fish and by destroying happenstance hybrids that occur in your own tanks.

[Sully]

cull them. make them vanish. use as feeders. separate the pair. whatever you want to do to assure they don't get beyond your tanks.

L2P articulates the case against that word that periodically makes the rounds on-line, frankenfish, very well.

[sirasoni]

cull them. make them vanish. use as feeders. separate the pair. whatever you want to do to assure they don't get beyond your tanks.

L2P articulates the case against that word that periodically makes the rounds on-line, frankenfish, very well.


dead them good. :devil:

[managuay86]

cull them. make them vanish. use as feeders. separate the pair. whatever you want to do to assure they don't get beyond your tanks.



dead them good.

it is abuse/cruel/inhumane if a "pure" cichlid is hurt or killed but when it happens to a mutt aka hybrid it is perfectly ok?

[khombre]

Personally, I would keep 1 or 2 to see what they look like. The rest I'd use as feeders. And I'll make sure they don't go beyond my tanks. I won't sell nor breed them. But that's just my opinion. Show me a pic if you decide to keep some. :dive:

[Sully]

it is abuse/cruel/inhumane if a "pure" cichlid is hurt or killed but when it happens to a mutt aka hybrid it is perfectly ok?

There are several phases people that get into this hobby can go through. Each defined not by the fish they keep rather by how they keep the fish and the understanding of fish as something other than a disposable object subject to our whims.

As some of the people that come and go on this board know i try to stay off soapboxes. I realize my limits of knowledge and expertise. Hell, i have not even contributed frequently at this particular site over the years. Look at the join date and post count and it is obvious. So, I will try to be quick and to the point (then again i may meander). Understanding of course that I cannot change someone's mind or opinion. All I can do is offer something that might want to be considered and tossed about in the grey matter.

I got "serious" in the hobby as a teenager (or so I thought). That was in the 60's (so yes, i am an old fart). I had a little 10 gallon tank. I got a "Siamese fighting fish". Thought it was cool. So I got 3 more. I figured that if god did not want them to fight, stress each other out, and cause one another to die then he would have only made one of em. I did not make the intellectual leap required to understand that my little fish bowl (yep, a 10 gallon is a little fish bowl) was hardly a fair comparison to native habitat. If I had I would have realized that god (or whatever it is that created/caused life) got around the "one of" problem by creating incredibly large habitats. Ones which gave fish the opportunity to avoid one another. Ones which permitted the "fight or flight" response to be successful. My little fish tank assured only one outcome. Fight.

Tanks came and went in my life. Then my bride-to-be (she did not know that yet-- I did) bought me a 10 gallon set-up the first Christmas that we were together (I bought her diamond earrings to let you know how badly I miscalculated the relationship--lol). I put water in it and got some guppies. Never really thought much about it. Just let the breeding occur. I mixed in other gups. I was amazed, over time, at how much prettier the gups were getting.

In 77 i started shacking up with my bride-to-be (at that point the wedding had been planned, invitations were out, and we were only months away from what every man that has been married for nearly 30 years will recognize as unmitigated wedded bliss--lol). We lived in a small one bedroom apartment. We started buying tanks--lots of them. The floor was a carpeted slab so we gave no consideration to weight load--or the wall-to-wall carpeting. Man did we get fish. lots of them. from every river, region, and continent. we tossed them in tanks. with little or no concern for water parameters, decor, or even species compatibility. And, back then (do all the other "old folk" miss the good old days when hobbyist bred was the exception and wild caughts were the norm?) we were dealing with "wild fish".

Boy did we learn a lot in a hurry. Fortunately I made a lot of money coming out of the gate after college so I did not really notice the $$$ being wasted. But, it was at that point I began to think about what I was doing. For the first time I was experiencing significant fish loss. Part of it was the lack (initially) of a qt process. The majority of it because of my ignorance. I felt bad. Really bad. Not about the $$$. About the lives of my pets that I was figuratively flushing down the drain. (i froze the bodies and put them out with the trash even then. think about it--the "bodies out with the trash").

I realized that i had little choice. I could stop keeping fish because i obviously did not deserve to keep them. Or, i could start getting more books and learn what I needed to know. I started paying more for books then i was for fish.

It took me over 10 years of casual fishkeeping to get to the point where i had to make a decision. how much of keeping fish was about me and how much of keeping fish was about them. I came to the conclusion that it was mostly about me and was disappointed (i had been one of them long haired hippy types as a youth and did not like the inconsistency of the answer between what I thought i was and what i had seemingly become).

We started to set tanks up by bio-tope (golly, i must be gettin smarter--i did not use that word then. We started setting up "very" compatible communities. We started with species tanks. And, even contributed to the "hobbyist bred" fish available at local fish stores. We recognized the occurrence of "old tank syndrome". Had to learn that one on our own back then, And, began a weekly regime of large pwc's.

Several years later we bought our first home--still in it. Like the neighborhood--lol. We got pregnant. We began to raise our family. The tanks vanished for several years. I kept active with fish through friends and tanks at the office. What I thought of as a double edged sword became common at the lfs. Wild caughts became an exception and not the norm. Hobbyist (and now farm fish) bred became prevalent.

Remember, I am an old hippy type. While no one would call me a "tree hugger" I am and have been aware of what man has been and continues to do to our environment.

I got back into the hobby with tanks of my own a number of years back. I was really disappointed at the lack of diversity of fish available at the lfs. On another board you can see that I have been posting for nearly a year trying to track down specimens of what were once relatively common fish in the hobby (look at my avatar. If you have that fish i am after 6-12 juvies or a breeding pair).

I discovered the internet world of fishkeeping. I lurked at another board for some time. i began to learn the state of fishkeeping today. i was delighted to discover the science behind what us "old guys" had intuitively discovered decades ago.

but, as I learned the basics of some of the chemistry involved I also began to catch up and discover so much more about the habitats of our fish. And, as a result I also learned about the vanishing nature of many of the species that fishkeepers have known and loved.

Yes, more species are identified daily. And, the absence of many species is noted daily.

So, I am finally to a point. Man has screwed up the rivers, lakes, stream, and ponds that are the origin of our fish. The declining populations and endangerment, even extinction of many species is not being experienced in only a single or isolated region. It is endemic to all areas. Marine and Freshwater; Tropical and Coldwater fish are being threatened.

The question becomes "what is our responsibility to preserve vanishing bloodlines to assist in the preservation and reintroduction of species on a world wide basis"? Hybridization threatens to destroy bloodlines. Not because a single hobbyist permits it in his or her tanks. Rather it is because the hybrids make it into the general population of existing fish. Many of the specimens appearing exactly like existing species to the eye. These in turn are bred with other species--or they are sterile and prevent the planned propagation and preservation of a species.

So, it becomes a question of is the hobby about you? Or, is the hobby about the fish? You will find many, many of the regular posters on this board (and we are usually at several others) have examined their motives and come to a conclusion: we will enjoy the hobby--but it is about the fish. And we will stridently preach that message.

People that don't come to that conclusion need to understand that their personal amusement is secondary (in many peoples mind) to a long term goal of a much greater scope than a hobbyist simply getting his rocks off by playing creation games that damage, destroy, and impede serious attempts to preserve the genetics and bloodlines of species.

So, I guess all i can say is "think about it". I am fairly confident that if you are honest with yourself--and not simply playing troll games--you will understand the motivations of the people that you seemingly deride in threads and posts.

Have we been there and done it--you bet. Have we screwed up--absolutely. Do we learn as we mature in a "hobby"--one can only hope.

Have we figured out it is something significantly more than a hobby--beyond any doubt.

Are we environmental nazis, tree huggers, or whatever the fringe thinkers in a much bigger picture are called--no.

We just realize that fish are a life form and deserve every consideration that entails.

sorry i did not spell/grammar check or edit--i babbled much longer than i thought i would.

[managuay86]

sully after reading that incredibly long yet suprisingly interesting "speach" I get a better view on the whole hybridization thing. Yes I may disagree with killing the hybrids but that does not give the right to start new species or at least try to maket them. I hav seen many hybrids jack d and convict, fire mouth convict just to name a few although their behavior was pretty interesting They seemed to die a lot quicker for unknown reasons. anyway I appreciate that your reply was courties it actually made me think. THANK YOU I FEEL THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE I CAN HAVE AN INTELLIGENT CONVO WITH.

honestly I thought you were going to reply with some stupid rude comment that would have made me reply with an even dumber commen :P:

I became interested in the hobby when i was ten my first fish were goldfish and after they died in 6 or so months in a bowl I decided to do some research on fish in general and wanted to know what makes them tick fastforward 10 years and here I am now head of the fish department at petco :D I know alot about fish sometimes i think i know too much :joke: and believe me I am not new to this hobby and I cannot stand seeing a fish die or suffer it gets me real bad I actually started to cry when I had to give up my red devil, he was like family to me, at least I have two of his offspring. I understand that you are against me trying to mix my damsel with my cichlids and I can honestly say that it has been thriving in my tank for a good 2.5 months now and I do have the resources available to me to make sure that the damsel and/or the cichlids are proparly cared for if i start to see any signs of weakness and suffering. I have access to plenty of well astablished salt and fresh water tanks. so dont worry about the fish they are in good care. anyway my point is that I know a lot about fish but not everything if I need help I will be sure to ask you because you seem to know quite a bit too, that and you are not a rude person. :dance:

[dorkfish]

You can assure me your fish are thriving all you want, but what I'd like to know is how you know your fish are thriving, since your such an expert fishkeeper, you should know...

This isn't starting an un-intelegent conversation is it?

[managuay86]

dorkfish no matter how many times I say it you still will not believe me but im going to try again... My fish are thriving because they growing and they hav healthy appetites. I see natural cichlid and damsel behavior. A suffering fish would be either on top or laying down on the bottem struggling to breath and a fish in that condition would not be able to eat and mine have not showed any signs of that. But it is useless because you have your own opinions and you are entitled to them and I respect that.