Need some smallish cichlids [Archive]

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Lauren

01-03-2005, 6:17 PM

I am picking up a 45 gallon and I need some ideas for tank mates. The tank will have some rasboras, cories, and perhaps two gold barbs if i decide to keep them. I want to add some blue rams, and another kind of chichlid that will not be too agressive, and not grow too large. I was thinking of some small angel fish, but I hear even the small ones can get large. I don't want chichlids that look too much like the rams either.

Suggestions?

Jayhawk

01-03-2005, 9:33 PM

What about a pair of keyhole cichlids. They get up to about 4-5", are very peaceful, and have great personalities?

Eric

Lauren

01-03-2005, 10:09 PM

those are nice looking fish, I will look into those. Thanks

I started reading through the profiles here and the agassiz's dwarf cichlids and umbrella cichlids look nice as well. I really want a fish that swims high in the tank, I have quite a few medium and low level fish already. For that reason, I am still thinking the angelfish may be the best.

SnakeIce

01-04-2005, 12:43 AM

my angelfish is about 2/3 of possible size for angels... he was a couple of millimeters from starvation when I got him and thus didn't grow as big.

body measurements in my tank speck link in signature

he is 8 inches top to bottom and 4 inches with tail... with good breeding, good food, lots of room from the time they are hatched angels can hit 12 inches top to bottom and 6 inches long. but that is the maximum with all the best conditions met... something most young angels are lacking that are available.

Jayhawk

01-04-2005, 7:31 AM

SnakeIce - I thought that was only Altum angels which got that tall and that scalare angels only had a heigth of about 8 inches...but I could be wrong.

I really like angels, but be careful where you buy them - bad stock often leads to lots of young angels dead shortly after you bring them home. Find a good LFS with good angels to be on the safe side! I didn't, and lost 3 angels pretty quick.

Eric

soupdragon10

01-04-2005, 9:31 AM

How about Kribensis? stunning colours and you don't have the height problems.

Lauren

01-04-2005, 12:43 PM

I thought about kribs, but they look a little too much like rams, I want to get a few unique fish to add to my tank. I like the look of festivum cichlids as well. I have a pretty narrow band of what cichlids I can put in. I need a peaceful fish, semi-aggressive at most. My PH is at about 7, water hardness is 8 (IIRC), and I want to put fluorite rich gravel in the tank for my plants. So that rules out most of the large, aggressive, alkaline loving, and or digging cichlids.

I have a very good fish store, so I think the quality of their angels will be above par. I asked my fish store, and they said that even "small" angels can grow very large, in a 45-gallon tank; will their growth be stifled? I've heard people agree and disagree with the old "a fish will only grow as large as its environment will support" theory.

How long does it take for an angel to reach full size? I had some small angels as a kid. They didn't last more than a year because of my amateur fish skills, but when they died, they were still about the size of a 50 cent piece. I think I had four of them in a 10 gallon with some neon tetras. I know I was horrible, but I was also eight at the time.

The tank I am getting is a hex tank, so it'll be pretty tall.

~*LuvMyKribs*~

01-04-2005, 1:59 PM

You should be fine with 1 or 3 angels. I wouldn't do a pair, they might fight too much. If its a tall tank i would reccommend angels, and if its a regular 45 then you might want to try kribs or something that is a bottom dwelling fish.

:)

qtaquaman

01-04-2005, 2:28 PM

Try lateacara curviceps/ aka aequidens sp. Like the keyhole but smaller and better looking. You think kribs look too much like rams?

SnakeIce

01-04-2005, 6:27 PM

The reason most angels don't reach the potential 6" length and 12" hight is because of overcrouding as babies. the combined hormones each fish produces in the spaces that young fish are kept in restrict the growth potential when they are just weeks old. that "stunting" if you will can't be made up and may be what you want in an angel... ie not as big a fish.

that is one part of why most angels are not as big and healthy as they could be. the other is the angel die off that occured a decade or more ago. after that decimating outbreak of the angel virus many fish were produced from a small stock and the resulting fish declined because of to many incrosses.

the result is the deformed fins, agressive or skittish behavior, lack of parenting skills and general lack of vigor in alot of the angels that are available today.

my male angel is a shrimp compaired to the males my dad had. the two that I know of personally were well over 8 inches in total hight with the one being almost 12 inches in hight. that was allmost a pathetic sight in a 20 long but he was healthy and happy as the sole angel in the tank.

some breeders have worked to keep the genetics of the angels they offer strong as they work to improve their line. and some like angelsplus.com work with wild fish and cross them into domestic lines to regain that vigor and poise that angelfish are known for.

I hope the accounts of what is, and what is possible can be sepparated so that the fish in each account can be viewed for what they are.

there is a rare(to the hobby)subspecies of angel that does not get as big as the traditional scalare. but I've only read of it on another forum and don't remember where that was. may have been mojo's forum.

f2 wild scalare (http://www.angelsplus.com/images/peruwild10.jpg)

peruvian scalare (http://www.angelsplus.com/images/leopoldi.jpg)
love this one

Lauren

01-04-2005, 8:00 PM

Are there any questions I can ask to try and determain weather or not the angels from my lfs will grow to old average size, or be smaller? I would prefer them to stay smaller than 8 inches, but at the same time, I want healthy fish.

Jayhawk

01-04-2005, 10:13 PM

SnakeIce

01-05-2005, 12:39 AM

Dumerilii or Leopoldi depending upon whom you believe has the proper name is the slightly smaller.

SnakeIce - I've just googled, and nowhere is the heigth of scalare listed as 12" and a 20 long is only 12" tall anyway...so that big angelfish would have had one fin above water if there was any substrate.

Unless someone has a good reference elsewhere, P. scalare doesn't grow more 8" in height - now P. altum is different and is cited as growing 12" to 15" in height.
Eric

I'll admit exagerating that fish's total hight, but when he flared his fins he was water surface to scrapeing gravel in span.

I got the 12" measurement as a maximum out of a responce that steve@angelsplus.com sent me when I asked how quickly angels grow and what is the maximum size.

he said that angels are still growing untill about two years of age, but the first year is when the significant majority of the growth occurs.

there are different lines of angels with different combonations of the various wild angels and thus a range of possible dimensions and some color varietys have more compact finage than others.

Lauren

01-05-2005, 4:09 AM

I saw an angel at my lfs about a year ago that had to have been 12 inches long. Beautiful white one. Right now there is a pair there for sale, they are probably 6 inches a piece, probably got too big for the owner, so they brought them back to the store.

Jayhawk

01-05-2005, 12:04 PM

SnakeIce - I'm sure with the interbreeding of wilds and earlier imported/now domesticated scalare, you're probably right there could be some larger strains. Despite Dr. Liebel's article, I'm not 100% convinced there aren't separate species being imported as scalare that'll eventually be given their own name.

I do still believe the VAST majority of scalare will max out at about 8" tall and 4-6" in length which is a much more reasonably sized fish to keep in most of our tanks!

Eric