On to the next problem.........

[Mooch28]

Yep, at it again......so any ways here it is.

I was looking at a chart for ph, and Kh value to figure out C02 levels. Well i tested my water, and KH is rated at 4.5 while PH is rated at 7.2 which means my current C02 level is at 8.6 ppm. The PH has been steady for weeks, but im not sure of the KH, because i just bought the test kit yesterday. Well anyways....the next step for me will be to inject C02. However for me to reach a goal of 25-30 ppm of C02, i will have to drop my PH down too 6.6/6.7

Will this not harm my fish? I have a community tank, where the fish are.....

Dwarf gouramis
Rams
Clown loaches
Barbs
Platies
Diamond tetras
Rasboras

Im just a bit concered here with such a large ph swing?

Edit: Chart can be seen here.....http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

[RTR]

Fish do not read pH, they read osmolarity. The pH drop from adding CO2 will not be noticed.

[Mooch28]

What do others think?

Not that i dont trust you RTR, i just want other opinions.....

[Blinky]

My fish didn't bat an eyelash when I added CO2 - I did add one bottle at a time so the shift was gradual, over about a week.

The pH without CO2 was 7.4, it's now 6.4 - 6.6 (lower in the morning, higher in the evening because I use DIY so CO2 is injected 24/7). It's gone down to 6.2 and none of the fish looked remotely unhappy.

RTR's been at this a long time, he won't steer you wrong ;)

[Mooch28]

Ok thanks Blinky and of course RTR........i now trust you AND RTR :D

[RTR]

Second opinions are always allowed and welcomed! ;)

But do remember that osmolarity does matter a great deal. If you had low pH and low KH water and did the same pH change in the opposite direction by dumping in bicarb all at once, you could shock/kill the fish. Not by the pH change itself, but by the dissolved solid addition of too-large amounts of bicarb (sudden increase in TDS and osmolarity). The acidification of dissolved CO2, or loss thereof as the plants use it during the light cycle is metabolically trivial.

[beviking]

What do others think?

Not that i dont trust you RTR, i just want other opinions.....

I think RTRs words are second to those in the Bible! :laugh:
And of course...he's right. Fish have to physically transport all kinds of stuff in and out of their system and alot happens through their gills. These transport systems can change due to the environment, but cannot change instantly. If the environment changes too rapidly, the fish is left with too much/too little stuff that is either detrimental or essential to the fish. That is referred to as shock (osmoregulatorily speaking of course) and can lead to death. :(

[Mooch28]

Second opinions are always allowed and welcomed! ;)

But do remember that osmolarity does matter a great deal. If you had low pH and low KH water and did the same pH change in the opposite direction by dumping in bicarb all at once, you could shock/kill the fish. Not by the pH change itself, but by the dissolved solid addition of too-large amounts of bicarb (sudden increase in TDS and osmolarity). The acidification of dissolved CO2, or loss thereof as the plants use it during the light cycle is metabolically trivial.

Sorry, but could you put that in more simple terms......i have no idea what your saying. I say that in the most respectful manor by the way......

Ill take a stab at it though. Ok, so if i add C02 too fast, then its bad right? is that what your saying?

Thanks.

[djlen]

Can't blame you for that Mooch.......heck they lost me somewhere way back there as well.:)
Just bring it down slowly and the fish will be fine. An example: My tap water is 7.4. I do 50 - 60% water changes with that water, into a tank that reads 6.4. The fish love their change and swim right into the on-coming water. Never had a problem over pH.
BTW - I've known RTR for years and, like myself he can be a bit crotchety, but his word is gold, IMO. I don't care what anybody says.............:)

Len

[Mooch28]

Ok thanks a lot guys. So PH isnt a problem if introduced at a slow rate....

:)

[Harlock]

Whoa! Mooch, wait! All your fish are going to die! Don't trust anyone. Especially the fish. Oh, they'll act like there is no difference to them, but in actuality they will be harboring terrible feelings toward you. They'll begin sneaking out of the tank at night and trying to strangle you. You know what you always assumed was drool that came out of your mouth as you slept? That's actually moisture trails from the fish! They were in your mouth, trying to force your tongue back so you'd swallow it! Yeah. Fish are nasty and mean.

RTR knows more about this than me, that's for darn sure. I'd trust him. Also, FWIW, Fish don't seem to mind gradual change at all. CO2 will be a gradual change.

[carpguy]

Sorry, but could you put that in more simple terms…

A lot of how the fish works, biochemically, is based on osmosis. Happens to us, too. Lungs, kidneys. Blood cells. Chemicals travelling across a membrane and what not, trying to establish an equilibrium, traveling from higher concentrations to lower and visa versa.

We normally associate pH-levels with Hardness levels. We tend to think that when a fish goes from one pH to a very different one suddenly and then dies, its because of the pH. RTR is saying that its not because of the pH, but because of the sudden change in the dissolved salts that make up the Hardness or the Alkalinity of the water. The GH and the KH and whatever else is in there adds up to what's called the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). It can mess up the fish's mechanisms for taking some chemicals in and for pushing other chemicals out.

If you depress the pH using CO2, you're really not altering the TDS so it has no effect on those osmosis mechanisms.

If were worried about the CO2 and your buffer and you bumped up the KH by tossing in a big old pile of baking soda, well then that would suddenly and radically alter the TDS, the osmolarity, and could kill the fish. The pH would rise coincidentally. The rising pH wouldn't be what killed the fish. Just something that happened at the same time.

HTH

[Mooch28]

Whoa! Mooch, wait! All your fish are going to die! Don't trust anyone. Especially the fish. Oh, they'll act like there is no difference to them, but in actuality they will be harboring terrible feelings toward you. They'll begin sneaking out of the tank at night and trying to strangle you. You know what you always assumed was drool that came out of your mouth as you slept? That's actually moisture trails from the fish! They were in your mouth, trying to force your tongue back so you'd swallow it! Yeah. Fish are nasty and mean.

RTR knows more about this than me, that's for darn sure. I'd trust him. Also, FWIW, Fish don't seem to mind gradual change at all. CO2 will be a gradual change.

:thud:

You had me craping my pants for a second.............BUT just a second! :D


Oh man, fish can really bring stress in your life :soda:

[Harlock]

Oh man, fish can really bring stress in your life :soda:
Amen. Which is why I always try to bring a little levity. Hang in there.

[beviking]

Sorry, but could you put that in more simple terms......
Thanks.

:eek: I used "physically transport" instead of getting into metabolic pumps, osmosis (which isn't physical on the fishs end I know), diffusion and other mumbo jumbo....
I even used "stuff" instead of ions and metabolic products :confused:
I know I know, noone listens to me...they see RTR and only read what he has to say...
Well, can't blame you for that! :)

[Mooch28]

:eek: I used "physically transport" instead of getting into metabolic pumps, osmosis (which isn't physical on the fishs end I know), diffusion and other mumbo jumbo....
I even used "stuff" instead of ions and metabolic products :confused:
I know I know, noone listens to me...they see RTR and only read what he has to say...
Well, can't blame you for that! :)

hehe, sorry. I did read your pst after i replied to RTR, and it did make much more sense too me :D

[RTR]

LOL! Carpguy got it, or already had it. Most folks don't ever think about osmosis, unless they are using RO, but what folk talk about as "pH shock" is 95% sure, at least, to be osmotic shock. FW fish are hypertonic to FW, they have more minerals in their blood and tissues than the water around them, therefore water always, repeat always, moves into their bodies. They dump a lot of urine but relatively few minerals in it - to get rid of the excess water and keep their blood and tissue concentrations stable. As a rule they do not drink - with all the water moving in (on the osmotic gradient), there is no need. They also actively transport certain minerals out via their gills, and some either actively or passively out through the gills (ammonium/ammonia). Fine, they are happy and healthy. Then the caretaker dumps in a tablespoon per gallon baking soda (bicarb). Bingo! Water TDS skyrockets (pH does too), water is not moving into the fish at the same rate, gills are exposed to radically different water than seconds before, some active transports shut down, some get speeded up (conditions are now different), passive transports get some of the same effect, fish have to attempt to re-adjust their entire homeotasis setup (think of homeostasis as keeping things going smoothly on a clean dry uncrowded highway on cruise control, compare the TDS change to a sudden white-out with snow). Some will make it ok, others end up in the ditch, or the worst case, the morgue.

The pH changes from CO3 do not hit TDS like mineral/buffer/soluble solid addition, and as several have pointed out, they are not sudden. Corollary: What is the best way to adapt a fish from radically different water at the store to your tank? Answer: Dropwise addition of tank water to a catch bucket or utility bucket with the fish still in the water to which it is already adapted. the dropwise changes are slow, not shocking, and if the differences are great between the two waters it can take hours - but it will save the fish. Parallel: Gaseous addition of CO2 to our tanks is exactly like dropwise addition of different water. The whole water volume does not change quickly, but slowly, and the TDS change is minimal if detectable at all by hobby equipment.

Does that make sense?

Aside: Never hesitate to question "authority". Nobody knows it all. That is part of why I am on these boards - I am still learning and hope that does not ever stop.

Edit: Besides which, as I started out as a biochemist/physiologist, it would be pretty embarrasing if I did not know some of this stuff - I did get paid for that.

[Mooch28]

LOL! Carpguy got it, or already had it. Most folks don't ever think about osmosis, unless they are using RO, but what folk talk about as "pH shock" is 95% sure, at least, to be osmotic shock. FW fish are hypertonic to FW, they have more minerals in their blood and tissues than the water around them, therefore water always, repeat always, moves into their bodies. They dump a lot of urine but relatively few minerals in it - to get rid of the excess water and keep their blood and tissue concentrations stable. As a rule they do not drink - with all the water moving in (on the osmotic gradient), there is no need. They also actively transport certain minerals out via their gills, and some either actively or passively out through the gills (ammonium/ammonia). Fine, they are happy and healthy. Then the caretaker dumps in a tablespoon per gallon baking soda (bicarb). Bingo! Water TDS skyrockets (pH does too), water is not moving into the fish at the same rate, gills are exposed to radically different water than seconds before, some active transports shut down, some get speeded up (conditions are now different), passive transports get some of the same effect, fish have to attempt to re-adjust their entire homeotasis setup (think of homeostasis as keeping things going smoothly on a clean dry uncrowded highway on cruise control, compare the TDS change to a sudden white-out with snow). Some will make it ok, others end up in the ditch, or the worst case, the morgue.

The pH changes from CO3 do not hit TDS like mineral/buffer/soluble solid addition, and as several have pointed out, they are not sudden. Corollary: What is the best way to adapt a fish from radically different water at the store to your tank? Answer: Dropwise addition of tank water to a catch bucket or utility bucket with the fish still in the water to which it is already adapted. the dropwise changes are slow, not shocking, and if the differences are great between the two waters it can take hours - but it will save the fish. Parallel: Gaseous addition of CO2 to our tanks is exactly like dropwise addition of different water. The whole water volume does not change quickly, but slowly, and the TDS change is minimal if detectable at all by hobby equipment.

Does that make sense?

Aside: Never hesitate to question "authority". Nobody knows it all. That is part of why I am on these boards - I am still learning and hope that does not ever stop.

Edit: Besides which, as I started out as a biochemist/physiologist, it would be pretty embarrasing if I did not know some of this stuff - I did get paid for that.


Wow, thank RTR, that made complete sense! You really do know your stuff. One question though, how exactly do you do the drip method for new fish? I could never figure out how to get the tube to drop a few drops at a time. Do you suck on it, let some water out, then let it go.....?

[SnakeIce]

well if it is airpump tubeing I tie a simple knot in it and loosen or tighten to gain the flow rate to what I want.

:bowing: :bowing: RTR Nobody knows it all. That is part of why I am on these boards - I am still learning and hope that does not ever stop.


that is as impressive as the knowlege gained over the years, I hope I should be as fortunate to say the same as I continue to live.

[RTR]

When I was younger ;) I did the airline with a knot bit, but small adjustments are a PITA. I have plastic air valves and use those as flow valves. Set for slow drip. After volume doubles, remove 1/2 and continue dripping; repeat a couple of times and you are there.

[RTR]

Just to throw in a monkey wrench - FW fish do not need to drink and do pee a lot, SW fish must drink lots and don't pee much. ("Drinking like a fish" obviously refers to SW critters). ;)

We'll deal with that one another time, but it is the other side of the same coin.

[beviking]

What's to deal with? It's the same thing (SW vs FW) except the movement of everything is reversed. High concentration ---> Low concentration, this is the law. If the fish needs something or needs to get rid of something against this gradient, it must physically do so.

Oh forget it...when you don't act serious, no one takes you seriously :D