help needed for a dummie

[coyoteman]

Ok, I'm embarrassed to even make this post. here is what i did. Went out last week and bought a 55 gal, came home and set it up and next day put fish in. Guy at a store told me 24hrs and i did wait that long. for a week i sat there and enjoyed the fish until i found this site. After reading a while i got nervous for the fish and went out and purchased a master kit made by Hagen. Last night the nitite was real high so i changed 20% of the water(i did us the aqua plus and did put in the product cyle) Ok, this morning same thing 0 ammonia and 0.8-1.0 nitrite. So i changed 50% water. Now tonight same thing. Help! what is going on. Are the fish doomed due to my stupidity?

[TONO]

cut down on the water changes or you are going to delay the cycle, sounds like your close to nitrates! Just make sure that the ammonia levels do'nt get too out out of control on you over .50ppm nitrite 1-2ppm. To help relieve some of the stress on your fish get some fresh water aquarium salt.

[WhtsThFrequency]

Water changes do NOT delay the cycle.

Bacteria are in the filter, not the water. Think of it (as someone told me) as a colony of rabbits. You can have a huge overabundance of carrots, or a medium amount of carrots. The rabbits will still reproduce at the same rate, even if there is an overabundance of carrots

In this case, the nitrite is the carrots (sorry if I'm not making sense, but hear me out). When you do a water change, yes, you lower the nitrite, but its not like the bacteria will grow faster if you don't do water changes and let the nitrite build up. Water changes save your fish from stress. Do them. Actually, through a negative feedback mechanism, bacteria will grow more slowly if there is too much "food" (nitrite) around them. So do water changes, keep the levels at a level where the fish won't up and freak out, and the cycle should proceed normally.

And don't feel bad! We all make mistakes :) You're going to be a better fishkeeper for it.

[coyoteman]

ok i'll keep doing to water changes. So if i understand correctly from what i have been reading if the ammonia is at 0 like it has been since yesterday, and the nitites are always out of whack then the cyle is almost done? and nitrates should take over? I wish this kit had the nitrate test to tell what level it is .

And thanks for helping me and not critizing instead. I think i'll like this forum.

[OrionGirl]

Correct! The nitrites can linger for a while, then suddenly disappear overnight, so be patient. The water changes will keep the fish from lethal conditions. Watch them for signs of trouble--red gills, heavy breathing, not eating being the big ones.

[Harlock]

cut down on the water changes or you are going to delay the cycle,The bacteria do not live in the water column and so long as fish are present, so is ammonia to grow the bacterial colonies needed. That's a quite popular myth that can and will kill fish
sounds like your close to nitrates! Just make sure that the ammonia levels do'nt get too out out of control on you over .50ppm nitrite 1-2ppm. To help relieve some of the stress on your fish get some fresh water aquarium salt.The cycle will come along. I like 50% daily water changes when you are fishy cycling with a bunch of fish. Salt isn't necessary, but something to keep in mind if the fish are becoming distressed. Usually water changes are enough. Also, you can do 2 50% water changes back to back without harming the fish. Also, freshwater aquarium salt is expensive and uneccesary. I use Kosher Salt for my cooking and my fish tank if I ever need it. HTH

[coyoteman]

Thanks for the responses. Same thing with the nitrites again today, so i did a 50% water change.

[gsk177]

Coyote, always keep one thing in mind with regaurds to your fishes. You can NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER do too many water changes.

Water changes, done properly, are your fishes best friend. Just always make sure that your incoming water is similar in pH, Gh, and temp as your outgoing water. New water that is either way higher or way lower in pH will submit your fish to osmitic shock. This can be instantly lethal. New water that is way softer or way harder than your current tank water can also be dangerous, but is usually not as big of a deal and is much more forgiving. A 10 degree or more temperature change either way can also be instantly lethal. If you have to err with temperature changes, err on the side of too cold rather than too hot. An appropriate heater will warm water quicker than your ambient air will cool a tank that is too hot.

Another great and minimal investment you can make to your fishes well being is a good test kit. I would get one that tests pH, NO2, NO3, NH3, Gh and Kh. For 85% or more of FW fishkeepers, these test are all they need.
I use this test kit http://petsolutions.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_17101034_A_Liquid+Master+Test+K its_E_ and found it to be all I have needed for over 3 years of fish keeping. Plus its only $12.

Nothing can help you out more in your fishkeeping hobby, especially during a fishy cycling, than a good reliable test kit and frequent testing of your tank AND your tap water. It is imperative to know what your tap water is so you will be able to anticipate more accurately what your new tank parameters will be AFTER a water change. After the water change, a good test kit will give you a full spectrum reading on what is going on. A MUST for fishy cycling if you want to limit the amount of stress being put on your fish.

[coyoteman]

Thanks, I have a master kit but it did not test nitrate so i bought that one today. I tested my tap water it has 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Tonight the ammonia is still 0 but nitrites are 0.8 mg/l so i need to do another water changei guess. Thats two 50% changes in one day. The nitrates are showing now which i would think is a good sign?. Also found a new problem tonight that the fish have that ich on them. Not all but most. I started uping the temps. and adding salt. Hope I'm doing things right. I also have been adding cyle by nutrifin each water change. Is this alright to do everytime. The store told me i could not add to much. Is this true?
Thanks again for everyones help.

[WhtsThFrequency]

Cycle is a a waste of money - it, and many products like it (Stress Zyme, etc) do not contain nitrifying bacteria - they contian the heterotrophic bacteria that break down fish waste. I wouldn't add any more, or buy any more, since these heterotrophic bacteria compete with the nitrifyhers for oxygen. Don't worry, you're definitely not the first to have fallen into the Cycle trap :) Yes, salt and high temp will help ich. If it gets so bad you need medication, MAKE SURE it says prominently in the instruction or on the box that it will not harm the biological filter - I believe most of Mardel's products are safe. Good luck! Sounds like you're gettting along fine, if nitrates are showing - hopefully only another week or two!

[gsk177]

Cycle is a total waste of money. BioSpira is the only product that supposedly speeds up the cycle process that is recommended on this forum.

[WhtsThFrequency]

I even don't trust Biospira - it didn't do squat when I was fishless cycling my 20 g. I used two pouches from two different stores, just to make sure it wasn't a bum pouch, but no dice :(

[Puffernewbee]

How many and what kind of fish do you currently have in the tank. It helps to know if you are overstocked or well understocked to see how bad you need to panic on the cycling process. If you have a 55 gallon and only 10 small fish in it there is not as big a need to panic because the ammonia levels are not going to climb very quickly. If you have 10 oscars then there is a need for more concern.

[coyoteman]

Ok, no more money wasting on cyle. I have 6 gourmis,1 pleco, 1 clown loach, and a FW violet goby in the tank.

[Puffernewbee]

Assuming most of your fish are in the 1-3 inch range since they are new, the bio-load is probably not as bad as it would be if you had adult fish or if you had bought 1 inch for every gallon of fish to start. Watch your nitrite readings and you should be OK. I would not think the ammonia is going to get very bad with the quantity of fish you have unless you overfeed.

[coyoteman]

All these 50% water changes are getting hard on a guy. Any tonight the nitrites again were high so i did a change. i tested the water after the change and the nitrites are still high? i even borrowed the pet stores nitrite kit to confirm mine was accurate. Should they not of went down after a change?

[Harlock]

Does your tap water have nitrites in it perchance? Also, you are safe doing back to back 50% water changes, so that can help when numbers get real high. I don't know how well you're set up for plants, but they can help too. Too bad most LFS don't know, understand or trust fishless cycling. Hang in there coyoteman, it'll be worth it in the long run.

[coyoteman]

Thanks, I tested my tap water it has nothing in it. I do have some live plants in the tank. Not sure what they are but the fish like to eat one of them. I'll take it day by day , thats all i can do.

[OrionGirl]

Keep in mind that if the test kit is reading it's max, that doesn't mean the nitrites aren't actually higher than that. If it reads only up to 5.0ppm, the value could actually be 10. A 50% water change reduces it to 5.0ppm--and the test results will be the same.

[WhtsThFrequency]

I had the same problem during my fishless cycle. It was because my nitrites were off the scale both time. Yeah, those water changes can be terrible :) but don't lose heart! After you cycle, its only 20% once a week. What I would do, to really get the nitrite down (you're gonna hate this awww :) ) is do a massive, massive change, like 80%. That should be enough so you can get the nitrite down to reasonable levels, and don't worry, it will not disrupt the cycle - I did a 90% change on my 20 gallon because I had the same problem, and it was all ok.

[Crabbypatty]

deffineitly keep down the water changes all it does is stress the fish and usually doesnt take down any thing

[kveeti]

Water changes should not be stressful to fish at all and in fact will bring down the ammonia and/or nitrite thus making it less stressful (or harmful or lethal) for the fish.

[Kasakato]

Do water changes! It will keep keep the levels down.

WhtsThFrequency- BipSpira is ment to be used with a fishey cycle and not a fishless cycle.

[coyoteman]

Sorry to peolpe who say not to change the water, but i just did an 80% change tonight and it dropped my nitrites and the fish seem happy. So if it works i guess don't fix it. I just hope they stay down this time. Thanks again everyone.

[gsk177]

deffineitly keep down the water changes all it does is stress the fish and usually doesnt take down any thing

Please enlighten us on how water changes stresses fish.

[yellowfreckles]

Hang in there coyoteman. I am happy to say that after 8 weeks, my tank is fully cycled. The Nitrite battle was the worse. One week of daily 50% water changes and sometimes twice a day was tough and discouraging at times. But almost like magic, I tested my water before I was about to do another change and the vile stayed this pretty aqua blue, no more of that horrible purple color! Keep at it and it will all work out in the long run! :)

[coyoteman]

Hello again everyone,
As i stated in a previous post my tank fish have ich. I have the tepm. at 86 and 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon. I find my clown loach's ich getting worse. Should they not have fallen off him by now? I purchased a chemical treatement but do not want to use it unless needed. Should i wait somemore or is this process not working? Thanks again for your help.

[Bayesoft]

With all the water changes you're doing. The concentration of salt to treat the ick is fluctuating. As well, if you are adding water that is cooler than 86 degrees during water changes. Well you get the point....

Make sure the new water is around 82-83 degrees and add the salt to it before adding it to the tank.

[coyoteman]

Bayesoft, Thanks for the reply, i have been doing as you suggested only the water i add is 85-86.

[Bayesoft]

The only thing left to do then, is to continue as you're doing and wait it out. Once the white spots have disappeared you can do a few water changes to dilute the salt.

It's not necessary to remove every trace amount of salt after the ick has died off. I would do two 25% changes then a 50% change over two or three days time.