most humane way to euthanize a fish

[Lauren]

I have an angel who has a problem with his swim bladder. I've read that this is usually permanent and that there is nothing I can do with him. I suppose I should just put him out of his missery. I don't want to hurt him. What is the most humane way to do this?

[Kasakato]

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37740 HTH

[asd159263]

put the fish in a bag (asap) and hit the bag on a hard surface as hard as you can. quick and painless.

[Sarasvati47]

I used to work for a pet care chain in the fish department, and our company guidelines gave us this method for euthanizing fish. I've used it myself with good results. I put my fish in about 3/4 cup of water and stirred in about two teaspoons of baking soda. It seemed to work very quickly, and I detected no struggle or suffering. It seems to knock the fish out almost immediately... :sad

[Blinky]

I had to euthanize my angel yesterday, you have my sympathies. I used clove oil in a container of tank water. It's an anesthetic, so they just go to sleep painlessly. I left him in the water for quite a while to ensure that I had administered an overdose, not just enough to knock him out temporarily. I've used freezing before, this method made me more comfortable.

[Harlock]

I use a sharp knife and sever the head from the spinal cord swiftly. Very effective and humane, but a little too up close and personal for some folks.

[Lauren]

I agree, that is way too personal to me. I can't kill him with my own hands, I can't do it. I can't even think about leaving him to freeze in the fridge. Since I don't have clove oil, I think I will go with the baking soda.

[Lauren]

lucky for me, my sister's best friend (she's over right now) used to have to kill feeder fish before feeding them to her turtle. So she took on the task for me. One swift smack and he was out. I'm glad I didn't have to watch. I'm also glad that it was swift, for the angel's sake.

:'( sad day.

[scottdwh]

It doesnt matter what way you kill them because fish do not feel pain. There brain is to small and can not comprehend pain. Even though you may do something painful to it and the fish will react like it felt pain, it was just the natural instinct of the fish to try and get away. Its just an escape mechanism they use.

[RandyA]

i have used both baking soda and clove oil with poor results... with the baking soda i used 5 table spoons of baking soda with about a half cup of water. it took about 5 minutes for the fish to die. also it tried to jump out of the bowl... i dont know if i used enough or to little? the clove oil worked a little better but it still took about 5 minutes for the fish to die

[Kasakato]

It doesnt matter what way you kill them because fish do not feel pain. There brain is to small and can not comprehend pain. Even though you may do something painful to it and the fish will react like it felt pain, it was just the natural instinct of the fish to try and get away. Its just an escape mechanism they use.

How do you know that is true? IMO its not ok to kill the fish any old was as you are saying. It is best to do it in a simple and quick way, rather than in any way the the fish could possibly feel it. And if they couldent fell pain/not be hurt why would we do this in the first place.

[gonefishin]

Lauren, I'm so sorry I have to post this. :sad I hope you understand i'm not trying to hurt you, just trying to clear this up. Fish CAN feel pain, they do have nerves like we do, just in smaller quantities, and they are not all over like our skin. A fish will fight when cought on a fishing line because there is not enough nerves to tell it, "ouch go that way", but there is enough nerves to tell it "hey somethings got me". Pain is an electro-chemichal signal to the brain that something is wrong with a bodily tissue. If they could not feel pain, they wouldn't even flinch if you tried to do something like cut off a fin or try to gut it alive.

[Lauren]

Its pointless to debate whether or not fish feel pain, you can't ask a fish if something hurt them. Luckily, he had a swift death, I hope it was better than the pain he was feeling while alive :(

[slipknottin]

How do you know that is true?

Because modern understanding of neuroscience says fish do not have the capability to percieve pain.

[Kasakato]

But can they feel if they are beeing handled?

[Raskolnikov]

Fish CAN feel pain

No. They recieve nervous stimuli that protects them from danger, for the most part, but they do not feel anything resembling our perception of "pain".

[YoFishboy]

Here is an article regarding research on fish and pain - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm - Regardless whether fish feel pain or not, I would think common sense and compassion would suggest that any living creature who depends on us for care deserves enough respect to be dispatched in the most humane and quick way possible, when it is necessary.

[gonefishin]

No. They recieve nervous stimuli that protects them from danger, for the most part, but they do not feel anything resembling our perception of "pain".
"OUR" perception of pain is quite misleading. Someone might find some things more painful than others. What would you call pain in humans? I'm not talking emotional pain or the like. Pinch yourself, what is that feeling. It is nervous stimuli designed to protect you from danger. Like has been said, we cannot ask a fish if something hurts. Have you seen Terminator 2? John connor asks if the terminator can feel anything. The response is, "My sensors can detect damage, the data could be called pain"

[Spikor]

I think this is something of an unasnwerable question. pain is subjective. perhaps the fish doesn't feel pain the way we do, but it certainly feels discomfort. if they didn't feel any pain they wouldn't go into shock when their fins get nipped a bit. they are certainly aware of pain in some manner. they definately don't have the same nervous system as we do but they CERTAINLY feel pain and discomfort. so i guess there is no reason to treat them like they don't feel anything just because they don't howl when they are hooked on a fish line.

so let's stick to putting down our sick fish humanely and swiftly.

[lquinsey]

Put your fish in a bowl with ice cubes and water. It was hard for me to do, but is VERY quick! I read this in a fish book somewhere and it really does work. :sad

[Raskolnikov]

No sense posting the BBC article without also presenting at least one rebuttal.
http://www.eaa-europe.org/2003/PFCasework/FishPain-Rebuttal-JamesRose-EN.htm


gonefishin,

You're absolutely right. I should stop looking into scientific journals and similar literature and turn instead toward The Terminator movies as a more competent source of knowledge. I will indeed take that into consideration in the future.




All of the above being said, I still kill my fish as quickly as possible when the need arises.

[superjohnny]

Because modern understanding of neuroscience says fish do not have the capability to percieve pain.

I've actually heard this before, but I don't remember where. Do you have any linkage slip?

Thanks

[slipknottin]

I'm not talking emotional pain or the like.

Pain is emotional. It is not a physical feeling. We react to things before we feel pain. The process of taking some sort of stimuli, transmitting it to the brain, transforming it and releasing chemicals that cause pain, then reacting to those chemicals is far too long of a process. It needs to be far quicker. We like all animals react to stimuli directly, long before any emotions.

[slipknottin]

I've actually heard this before, but I don't remember where. Do you have any linkage slip?

Thanks


http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm

[slipknottin]

No sense posting the BBC article without also presenting at least one rebuttal.
http://www.eaa-europe.org/2003/PFCasework/FishPain-Rebuttal-JamesRose-EN.htm


"The improbability that fish can experience pain in no way diminishes our responsibility for concern about their welfare, because they are still capable of robust behavioral, physiological and hormonal responses to stressors, which, if sufficiently sustained, can be detrimental to fish health, but the idea that fish are capable of experiencing pain or suffering resembling our experiences is, on the basis of extensive factual evidence, extremely improbable."

I like that paragraph.

[gonefishin]

No sense posting the BBC article without also presenting at least one rebuttal.
http://www.eaa-europe.org/2003/PFCasework/FishPain-Rebuttal-JamesRose-EN.htm


gonefishin,

You're absolutely right. I should stop looking into scientific journals and similar literature and turn instead toward The Terminator movies as a more competent source of knowledge. I will indeed take that into consideration in the future..

That's just an example that pain can be describes as the realization of damage. Of course the movie was fictional, but the message is the same. Its all how you interpret the word. I think this article was ammusing. Years ago science proved that heavier than air flight was impossible. No airplane would ever make it into the sky. This article seemed to base pain on consciousness, and sites that fish most likely lack what is needed to be conscious. See the blerb I took out below, improbable does not mean impossible, it simply means science has not yet figured it out. And what if that slight improbable chance happened?It also states that we are still responsible for thier welfare, which pretty much says it all.


The improbability that fish can experience pain in no way diminishes our responsibility for concern about their welfare, because they are still capable of robust behavioral, physiological and hormonal responses to stressors, which, if sufficiently sustained, can be detrimental to fish health, but the idea that fish are capable of experiencing pain or suffering resembling our experiences is, on the basis of extensive factual evidence, extremely improbable.

[slipknottin]

But can they feel if they are beeing handled?

They are not conciously aware, so they do not 'feel' anything. They do react to stimuli, as any animal does.

[slipknottin]

And what if that slight improbable chance happened?It also states that we are still responsible for thier welfare, which pretty much says it all.

Considering their are mountains of evidence that they dont, and nearly none that they do, I find your argument rather flawed. Comparing this to flight is also rather ridiculous. It has nothing to do with wether science can figure this out. Science already has. You should make use of the knowledge provided to you, not immediatly try to argue it just because it doesnt fit into your view or understanding of the world. Heck, I doubt anyone here has taken any classes in neuroscience or neurobio, so its almost insane to believe we know better.


Personally I just find it amusing how upset people get when you tell them that maybe their animals arent just like them. Fish dont experience life like humans do, shocking....

[gonefishin]

Considering their are mountains of evidence that they dont, and nearly none that they do, I find your argument rather flawed.
I bet they told that to Orville and Wilbur as well.;)
And I'm not upset, just bored and debating,(remember the 1st day of debate class? thay ask you to go to one side of the room or the other depending on a point of view, then tell you you are to argue AGAINST your own POV) some might re-define that as arguing, But no I'll will here, just good fun :) I like to challenge science. Compairing it to flight is just another stupid example. While we may disagree on the definition of "pain" we still love our fishies!!!!!!!!!

[slipknottin]

I bet they told that to Orville and Wilbur as well.;)

Science had never proven that flight wasnt possible, in fact, science had proven quite the opposite, that flight was indeed possible, just maybe not with the technology of the day. Basic scientific theories of how flight could be attained were around far before the first flight. There goes your theory.


In any case, what you should be trying to do is prove how its possible fish feel pain. Not get hinged on a weak strawman argument of 'what ifs'.

[superjohnny]

Personally I just find it amusing how upset people get when you tell them that maybe their animals arent just like them. Fish dont experience life like humans do, shocking....

ROFL. I know a dog lover or 2 who I find quite amusing in this respect. Interesting read, thanks for the link.

[Bmeasure]

I really was questioning even adding my 2 cents here just because it seems to be a bit heated! I truely hope I don't offend anyone with my comments. I have seen strong arguements to claim either case in this thread and much more at earlier threads and other locations. This thread is so debatable because it has several different points which could be argued and seen at least in 2 different ways

1) Is "being proven by science" the end all, be all of fact? Some would say yes, some no. The big bang theory isn't proven, but is still taught to children in school as the most "probable" scenario. Different religious groups believe their way to be the truth. I'm sure at some point it was considered a fact that the world was flat. Science itself has evolved just as our understandings have evolved! Some experiments could be done with 10 separate groups of 100 random people in each group, with 1 group being a "control group". An argument could be made based on the findings (this happens almost daily at prestigious colleges), only to be "changed" when years later 1 freak occurance that disproves the original case is documented. Either way scientists are just people and science is created and adapted by people....thus FLAWED to some extent.

2) Fish not having feelings is based on a current "theory" that their neurological system doesn't have the capacity for the "pain" as it is defined in medical texts. I don't remember for sure, but I believe I read someone wrote that pain is an emotional response and that fish don't have emotions....is that right? I'm not sure if I remember exactly what was written. Sorry if I'm wrong. If this is right, then fish would not experience fear, which I believe could be strongly argued against! I fine a couple of experiences of my own interesting in light of this topic. One is when I am not paying close attention and someone acts like they are going to hit me hard, but only lightly touch me (or similar event) and I react as if hit hard....and even say "OUCH!" Seconds later I realize their was no pain involved! Second thing is how some fish that I move from tank to tank react in strange ways sometimes. First I catch them in my hands, then the thrashing around happens, then a calm comes over the fish (with possible intermittent thrashing at random), then I put them into the tank. If their sensory nerves are telling them "trouble!", then why don't they continue to thrash until it is no longer stimulated? Some fish thrash all the way to the new tank. Often times small fish will remain in the "fold of my hand when released into a new tank feeling more secure next to the "thing" that just "hurt/touched/grabbed" them! Why? If the sensor doesn't say something more than trouble or cold or hot, then they would not react this way!

Please chime in if you have some ideas on my comments. But Please.....be gentle!
-Mark

[Bmeasure]

By the way, any of you who recieve National Geographic magazine might enjoy some of the articles in the March issue. It deals heavily with current studies and research on the mind and brain.

One issue I found clever was about a study in which people were placed in front of a table and seated with their hands on their lap (laid flat) so they could not see through the table to their hand. On top of the table was a rubber life-like hand mould. The scientist then began to stroke the rubber hand and their real hands simultaneously with a feather or something. The people were fully aware of what was really happening, but in as short as 15 seconds (I believe) most people began to feel strongly connected to the rubber hand. So much so that they could "feel" the scientist stroking the rubber hand with the feather even though he was not touching their real hand! They also would recoil as the scientists would hit the rubber hand with a hammer....actually pulling their own hands back! This was a very interesting article to me! The whole issue was a great read!

Just something to think of in regards to fish and pain!

[gonefishin]

Go ahead and chime in. Like I said, no bad juju, just good fun:). I wont go on about my feelings as they are already laid out. But why, if something lacks consciousness and is incapable of feeling pain, should we care if it is euthanized in a humain manner? Would it make a difference if you put it out quickly, or just let it suffocate? While it has become obvious that I am not that good at using examples, I will try this one. A tree is a living creature, that as far as I know lacks the ability to feel pain(no nerves that I am aware of). Would it matter if I cut off a branch slowly with a hack saw, or quickly with a chainsaw?

[YoFishboy]

Uh oh...if they ever find out fish have souls, we are all screwed! :mad2

[knashash]

Just an after thought here...but I saw a TV show of a fish that had swim bladder. The owner tied a little string around its belly with a small floatation device attached to the other end and it showed the fish swimming around fine with it on. Just an idea...could be too late though :idea2:

[random_zooey]

It shouldn't matter whether fish feel pain like we do, or whether they feel it at all ... what should matter is being responsible for the lifeform you have taken into your hands: this means providing what's necessary for a long and healthy life, and killing it as quickly as possible when something's gone wrong.

To say that it doesn't matter how you euthanize the fish, becuase he doesn't feel pain ... really, I think this is ridiculous, and even grotesque. Their ability to feel pain should not be an issue on the table: just kill the fish asap, period.

[gonefishin]

It shouldn't matter whether fish feel pain like we do, or whether they feel it at all ... what should matter is being responsible for the lifeform you have taken into your hands: this means providing what's necessary for a long and healthy life, and killing it as quickly as possible when something's gone wrong.

To say that it doesn't matter how you euthanize the fish, becuase he doesn't feel pain ... really, I think this is ridiculous, and even grotesque. Their ability to feel pain should not be an issue on the table: just kill the fish asap, period.
So does that mean using a mannual saw to cut down a tree is inhumane, as opposed to using a chainsaw?

[freeless2002]

I have an angel who has a problem with his swim bladder. I've read that this is usually permanent and that there is nothing I can do with him. I suppose I should just put him out of his missery. I don't want to hurt him. What is the most humane way to do this?


freezer.

[mtbiker9000]

Because modern understanding of neuroscience says fish do not have the capability to percieve pain.

Hi everyone my name is Thomas Gagnon and I am a marine Biologist for the Woods Hole oceanagraphic Institute in Ma. Modern neuroscience does indeed dictate that fish can feel pain. Studies have shown that fish become highly stressed when introduced into an enviroment of discomfort or on the extreme, pain. Now if a creature's body or mind reacts to a certain enviroment with a positive chemical adjustment it feels pleasure as in the euphoric centers we see stimulated after feeding, now on the other hand we have also seen performed in th neuro mappings of fish that when introduced into an enviroment of what we would consider a painful enviroment whether it be by physical harm, addition of chemical additives or even lack of oxygen the animal produces oxidizers which are the introductory predecessors to the activation of nerve cell hemolysis or a pain feeling. Now yes someone said before that fish do not have the mass quantities of nerve cells we have but still all it takes is one and they have billions. So be nice to your fishy and if you have too, "by the way your fish was not suffering" kill quickly and use a method that is most kind for the fish not 50/50 for the both of you, USE the swinging bag or yes cut off its head but certainly those other methods are just nicer for you and cause more pain for Mr or Mrs. Fishy.

Have a nice Day
Tom Gagnon P.E.

[Kasakato]

Lets not bring the flaming back. But now we have a good complete answer. Case Closed.