FO system

[bemyself]

Dear all,
I hope this is not a stupid question. To start a SW aquarium, I understand that we need to cycle the water, measure or maintained water parameter.
The best from what I had read at this forum is to use the shrimp cocktail method so as to create an ammonia spike and etc... etc... etc...
when beneficial bacteria build up after water cycle, you'll have live rocks so as to help in the biological filtration while beneficial bacteria will also help. Ok to make things short. How are you going to set up a Fish only system where there's no live rock to help in the biological filtration? Let say I only have a hang on mechanical filter to help on the mechanical filtration, so my question is how am I going to start a FO system. Do I need to use the shrimp method? Are there any special method to start a FO system. Can anybody please elaborate on the process? Thank you.
Regards

[Oliver]

The best way to start any system, is to get a few kg of live rock. You don't have to get much, just a kilo or two, just for all the benificial bacteria in gives. I saw on your information that you live in thailand so if I were you I would get some from the ocean. Or if you want to you can buy it, but you only need a kg or two. As for the coctail shrimp, it is not a bad way to cycle it but live rock is better. The water for the tank, if you live close enough to the ocean then get the water from there, this is the best way to do it.

[FloridaBoy]

Greetings Thailand!
You need to use common sense if you go with natural seawater.
Collect the water from an offshore area (a mile or so, by boat if possible), avoid marinas and inlets if possible due to chemical contamination/fuel/oil, etc. When you're starting new you have no fish anyway so it shouldn't be a problem but later on for water changes, be advised you can introduce pathogens when adding natural water to an existing community; to avoid this cure the water in sealed plastic containers and total darkness for 3-4 weeks. Just to be clear, if you add live rock you no longer have a FO system; you are introducing a level of invertebrates so research/plan accordingly. If you add more live rock later it will need to be cured so be sure and research that process on the web and you'll be okay.

[bemyself]

Dear Oliver,
If I were to add live rocks ( 1-2 kgs), when should I start to add the rocks. How many days or weeks after I put the water into the tank ( let assume that i'll be using chemical salt)? And hpw long do i need to put the live rocks into this tank before I know it's ready to add fish?
Thanks

Dear Floridaboy,
I believe I'll be having a FO system where no live rocks will be use. As recommended by Oliver, maybe the live rocks will only be use during the cycling period and once cycle ends, the rocks will be taken out. It's about an hour drive to the nearest beach so i would prefer to use chemical salt.
Anyway, thanks for your recommendation and I'll try to get more info from this forum.
thanks

[FloridaBoy]

Leaving some live rock in any marine tank is a good idea; even a fish system will benefit from them. My point was; you will be introducing inverts with the rock so you need to remove the rock before treating with copper medications for marine ich. This is really not a problem, just plan accordingly, set up a small quarantine tank or refugium and you can move the rock (or fish) there during treatment.
If you are planning a robust fish population, you'll need more biofilter than just live rocks; go with a trickle filter/sump and add a protein skimmer about 6 months later for nutrient export.

[Oliver]

If you get live rock, don't throw it out, keep it, it is great. It is not going to do anything to your fish or set up what so ever. yoy add the rock a few days after you added the water. You know when you can add fish when the ammonia and nitrite have been hige, and gong back to 0.

[MarkLehr]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I think there is some confusion about the different types of filtration available and what each of these accomplishes. In this thread, 2 types are being discussion; These are Biological Filtration and Mechanical Filtration.

Your mechanical filter can be used on the marine aquarium. However, it is primarly going to benefit the aesthetics of the aquarium, and will not actually do much for keeping a healthy living environment. Limited amounts of bacteria will live on the filter pad, and function minimally as a biological filter, but even after your aquarium cycles, you MUST have a permanent source of biological filtration. A mechanical filter alone can not maintain the needed conditions for successful marine aquariums.

A biological filter is what allows fishkeeping to be possible. The biological filter breaks down ammonia and nitrite so that the fish can live in the confines of an aquarium. Bacteria grown ON THE BIOLOGICAL FILTER MEDIA, and then feed on ammonia and nitrite. If you remove the media which houses the bacteria, then you will no longer have a biological filter.

Live Rock is an example of a biological filter. The live rock itself houses a tremendous amout of bacteria which process waste. It should not be necessary to have any other biological filter on this aquarium, unless you are planning to keep large or messy fish, such as Puffers, Lionfish, Triggers, etc.
If you do fancy larger fish, then I agree with FloridaBoys suggestion of adding an additional biological filter, such as a trickle filter. I am also a big fan of the Emperor Biowheel filter by Penguin, which combines Mechanical and Biological filtration into one filter.

If you decide to use Live Rock, then you can place the rock into your aquarium immediately after mixing your saltwater. The rock will "cure" for a few days or weeks, as some organisms contained in the rock die. This curing process will cycle your aquarium, and can be monitored by testing for Ammonia and Nitrite. After both your Ammonia and Nitrite read zero, then you are ready to add fish. If your live rock is already "cured" at the pet shop, then it will only need to sit in your aquarium for a day or two before you are ready to add fish.

If you decide not to use Live Rock, then you must buy biological filter. In this case, you can use th shrimp cocktail method. Bacteria will grow on the biological filter and in 3 or 4 weeks your Ammonia and Nitrite will be zero and you can add fish.

Sorry so long, but hopefully this clears up some things. Good luck!

[bemyself]

Hi again,
Thanks for all the information. It's really good info.
Can I assume that once water is cycles ( either thru live rocks or cocktail shrimp method) the water in the tank will be fill with useful bacteria. My next question is how am I going to maintain the good bacteria in the tank where there is no live rocks or media?
Marklehr did mentioned buying the biological filter. What is actually a biological filter?
I really need to apologise as my knowledge on salt water is limited and also please forgive me if i'm asking lots of stupid question.
Thanks,
Bemyself

[wayne]

There will be almost no bacteria in the water - they attach to solid surfaces. These can be live rock or other filter media. However it is tough to beat live rock. Certainly use some to inject bacteria into the system at the start.

Note that if you have no decoration in the tank, you will always get freaky, nervous behaviour from your fish. You really need some cover for most fish.

Buy a protein skimmer. A good one. Don't kid yourself 'it's fish only, I don't need one.' You'll be astionished at how much is pulled out, and then you'll think , if it don't go here it will go ???? (algae)

[Gealcath]

The aerobic bacteria which break down ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate dont live in the water, only on solid surfaces. Live Rock can be a misleading term. Any rock even dead base rock can do the same filtration as Live Rock does in terms of bacterial colonies. Live Rock refers to organisms and animals OTHER then Bacteria. So a dry piece of Tufa rock will provide the same type of filtration as the same type of rock pulled out of the ocean, the dry rock will just take longer and you wont get any of the stuff that comes with live rock.


However a FO set up is good enough to support live rock anyway.

[bemyself]

Dear Gealcath,
Thanks for the info. I'd along thought that live rocks are the place to house useful bacteria. So any base rocks in a matter of time will also be able to house useful bacteria with the difference from live rocks is that live rocks are fill with living organism. Correct me if I'm wrong again
So in order to come to a conclusion, after filling new salt water into a tank for a few days, add live rocks or base rocks. Monitor ammonia and nitrate.( believe that by adding live rocks will also create a spike. Not neccessary to use shrimp when cycling) Do a 50% water change once ammonia and nitrate drop. Start adding fish. That's it. Correct?
Thanks,
Bemyself

[Gealcath]

Live Rock already has the bacteria living in it, base rock take awile for the bacteria to grow in it, but once its all said and done the only diffrence is Live Rock has other critters on it.


The Bacteria eat ammonia, so if good live rock is used there will be enough bacteria to handle any ammonia present from the get go. If your using base rock, you need to add an ammonia source in order to start the bacteria to grow. This is where the fishless cycle comes in. As the raw shimp decays it releases ammonia which feeds the bacteria. However the bacteria colonies only get as big as the ammonia source is. A cycle with a fish for example will only develop enough bacteria to handle the ammonia waste of that 1 fish, while the shimp methode will get enough bacteria to handle all the ammonia released by a fully decaying shimp.


Also fishless means no water changes, unless you have Nitrate problems. Nitrite and Nitrate are virtually non toxic to fish due to the salt in the water. However Anerobic bacteria which complete the Nitrogen cycle (which is ammonia-->Nitrite--->Nitrate--->Nitrogen Gas) which break down Nitrate live in oxygen poor enviornments, i.e areas with little to no water flow. In terms of base rock or live rock, porous rock is best because it contains holes which promote anerobic bacteria growth. However this type grows ALOT slower then Aerobic bacteria, which is why it takes longer for Nitrate to be removed. This is also whats a DSB (deep sand bed) is used for, to create a low oxygen enviornment.

Once Ammonia and Nitrite both read 0 (Ammonia especially, the high PH of saltwater makes Ammonia extremely toxic), at that point you can start adding fish.

[bemyself]

Dear Gealcath,
Thank you very much. That is a ton of information!

[Oliver]

Like someone said before, Buy the best stuff. If you are tossing up between a different product and there is a little price difference, buy the better one, it costs more but in the long run it is worth it. A skimmer is a good example. they are not cheap, but you should see what difference they make, and what difference different skimmer make.