Ich Help

[kgalliher]

so heres the deal.... I have a 4 week old 55g tank that I started with biospira a dwarf angel, damsel, o.clown, val. puffer 20 or so pounds of base rock, 3 mexican snails and 2 turbo snails.

So 5 days ago I started seeing signs of Ich on my dwarf angel and o.clown. I went to the LFS and bought some Ruby Reef Kick Ich.

I'm into my 3rd dose (7th day) and things are looking worse. My puffer has it on his fins pretty bad and my angel keeps rubbing on the rock.

WHAT SHOULD I DO???? Oh, and I just did a 20% water change the day I started the Kich Ich

[kgalliher]

oh...and I usually run a powerhead in the tank for circulation but I have turned it off and am only running my wet/dry, should I run the head or not?

[wayne]

OK, lets get to the point KickIch notoriously is rubbish and will do nothing.

There are two proven cures for ich - copper and hyposalinity. I will not recommend copper to you as it is toxic to everything, including fish and the angel and puffer are quite unresistant to it. Also it will corrupt all your sand and rock so you can never keep inverts again.

So your other real choice is hyposalinity, reducing the saltiness of the water. Your fish will all be able to deal with this,better than you think. I have used this method.
Note fish deal much better with going down in salinity than going up. So first you need a decent hydrometer or refractometer. No crappy swing arm jobs. Then you start taking out buckets of salt water, and putting in pH adjusted freshwater. Keep your kH and pH up else everything will die. Take your salinity down to 1.012, I took mine to 1.009 and that worked. As it only kills the free swimming stage this can take time, and if your fish are already loaded they may not make it I'm afraid.
Keep your salinity here for 6 weeks. No new livestock. None. There are some very tough strains of ich out there which only copper will kill, but this will sort out most.
After 6 weeks raise your salinity, taking about a week.
Garlic can work though it didn't for me, but everything else has to be perfect, which in your new tank it certainly isn't. Freshwater dips do not work. There is plenty of info on the web re this..try googling ich treatments or similar

Ear bashing time
You were stupid to 1. not QT everything, 2. Buy a dwarf angel as they are not easy to look after, 3 not have live rock and 4 not do any prereading of respected books.

I assume this is all on the 'sterling' advice of your lfs

[kgalliher]

thanks for the info...I will give it a try.

my clown seems to look the worst this morning.

Will the extra circulation help or hinder the process of decreasing the salinity/getting rid of the ich?

Would you recommend continuing to use the Kick Ich until it is gone during this process??

[kgalliher]

Anyone one else have any comments or opinions??

I was considering doing a 30% water change in hopes this may help.

[J_Vee]

kgalliher,

I had the same problem not long ago. I tried so called ICH treatments. The only thing that help is the following: I broke down and went to a large discount pet supply store (with Pets & Mart in the name) and purchased a Marineland Eclipse 12 gallon aquarium. It comes with a biowheel 3 stage filter, hood and light for $79. I also bought some gravel and a heater. I set up the tank, you can use a piece of PVC pipe in which the fish can hide. In total in will cost about $100 but you probably have more than that invested in the fish.

I treated them with copper and hyposalinity for 4 weeks in the 12 tank. If you add copper to your main tank, it will nuke the invertebrates. It is difficult, if not impossible to get all the copper completely out of the system.

I was able to save all 4 of the remaining fish. I left my invertebrates in the main tank. Now I use the 12 gallon tank to quarantine new fish for 3-4 weeks before putting them in my main tank. Hope this helps


Joe

[FloridaBoy]

J-Vee is right on the mark here; you need copper and a QT to save your fish, follow his advice and quick. You can skip the gravel, you will need to REALLY watch for ammonia; seed your biowheel with nitrobacter slime culture from healthy established system when adding fish. Hyposalinity will help also, but this late in the game you need more. IMO, for all the bad rap copper gets, it has saved more marine fish from ravenous parasites than any other treatment, and I have seen remarkable recoveries in 24-48 hours when used properly. The good news is, the cryptocaryon will starve in 4 weeks without a host (no fish) in the display. Leave the inverts as is.
Don't worry, many advanced marine aquarists have struggled with this and we were all "stupid" before we learned more. MANY beginners are only now discovering the delicate balance of long term mixing of fish and inverts, that's why many go with fish only systems with just a few LR's and crustaceans... it's easier to move the rock/crustaceans! Mix Marine ich in a large reef system with tons of places for the fish to hide and you have a nightmare. Keep reading and you will succeed.

[jmcleod]

I had a similar issue with my purple tang - covered in ich. The cure was garlic. It can be bought in a concentrated formula at the LFS. By adding it to the food, the fish ingest and the oil makes them taste bad to the parasites. After about 1-2 weeks, the problem was cured. I've been ich-free now for 3 months - including a change to a new tank. Once/week I add the garlic to the tank as a preventative measure.

Jon

[kgalliher]

Thanks for all of your responses.

I have a 10g tank and HOB filter already that I can use. Will the cramped quarters of the 10g with 2 med size (2-4in) and 2 small size (1-2in) fish cause too much stress on them? I know I will probably have to do weekly (or more) water changes. And are they going to be OK in this space for the 2-4 weeks that is required?

Anyone else care to chime in on whether I should go the copper route or hyposalinity route?

[Gealcath]

Copper will kill Ich 100%, but it will also kill anything with copper based blood (which are most inverts, which is why it kills Ich so well). However Ich will NOT effect invertabrates, so move the infected fish to a QT tank and treat with copper, in abour 4-5 weeks without any fish in the Ich infected tank the Ich will die from lack of a host.

[FloridaBoy]

[QUOTE=kgalliher]Thanks for all of your responses.

I have a 10g tank and HOB filter already that I can use. Will the cramped quarters of the 10g with 2 med size (2-4in) and 2 small size (1-2in) fish cause too much stress on them? I know I will probably have to do weekly (or more) water changes. And are they going to be OK in this space for the 2-4 weeks that is required?

A 20 gal wouldn't hurt. Add several pieces of large diameter PVC for lots of hiding places.

[kgalliher]

OK, I have the hospital up and running. I have the salinity LOW at 1.012 and have been dosing with copper per the instructions, but can barely get a reading of .05 and I understand it needs to be at .15-.30. My test kit and copper are both new. There is no carbon in the filter, just a sponge. I did add some Cycle to the tank and some pH bufffer since it is new, but that is it. Any ideas as to why I can't seem to get the copper high enough?

Also, should I even worry about the copper in addition to the hyposalinity or just go the hyposalinity route and continue to decrease until I hit 1.009?

Thanks again for any suggestions.

[FloridaBoy]

Hmm, not sure which product you are using some are chelated some not; for now just dose per the instructions and forget the dang test kit. Some of the chelates can be very hard to measure accurately, do not, repeat do not overdose! Most importantly OBSERVE the fish several times a day if possible for signs of stress. Are white spots going away? IME, usually only one or two treatments of copper are enough, you should see results in 24-48 hours. Watch that puffer closely, they do not always respond well to copper, (no scales) I have treated some with good success but you may need to take that one to your LFS if stressed, it would have died from ich anyway if you left it in the display. Plenty of aeration is our friend here; drop an airstone in they are under rated and of much benefit. Change water if ammonia/stress go up. I feel your salinity is good, and do NOT suggest going lower at all, indeed it's more than low enough now in my opinion, I have never dropped it below 1.018 but that's just me. Continue to feed and remove all uneaten food/fecal as soon as it shows. I have a feeling you responded to this problem late so don't expect miracles, but best wishes and at least now you have a QT you can use for future.

[kgalliher]

Everyone seems to be doing OK. They do looked stressed by being in such a small space.

Ammonia was up to .50 last night so I did a 1/2 gal water change (10 g remember...)

The copper sulfate I used did not say it was chelated, rather iodized. I thought maybe it was old. Since they have been in the copper for 2 full days, I think I will do another water change and start decreasing the amount of copper in the water. I do have a bi-color dwarf angel in there and a valentini puffer both of which I understand are sensitive to copper.

It concerns me to leave them in such a small space for such a long time (4 weeks until the display tank is rid of the ich)

[FloridaBoy]

As I said before, A 20 gal wouldn't hurt. Add several pieces of large diameter PVC for lots of hiding places. You're on the right track.

[acadia74]

I am in the same boat as kgalliher. I have a yellow tang and two clowns. they are in the hospital tank and being treated with copper. I was wondering, could the coppersafe throw the amnonia test out. Before i put the coppersafe in the amnonia levels were 0, then i added the copper and my amnonia level went up within an hour to .06. I did a 20% water change and the level stayed the same. If anyone knows anything I would be very greatful.