Bio Spira

[Caleb]

I manage the LFS fish department in my area and I was wondering....the rep from marineland came in and was trying to convince me to buy a product named "bio-spira"

he claims this product can completely cycle your fish tank in 24 hours and that you HAVE to stock it heavy within a short time or the bacteria that cycle the tank have nothing to feed on. Now while this seems like a good product and it makes sense on how the bacteria need the fish to survive.....I'm wondering has anyone bought this, how well did it work, and how much did you spend for a packet of it.....and was it worth it.

Basically, I'm trying to get the best stuff going in my department, and I know we have, by far, the cleanest tanks in town with the best looking fish....I just want to make sure I carry good products, that are reasonably priced, and do what they claim....

Any thoughts?

Caleb

[DLeung10]

@ 11.99 for 1 ounce pouch, good for 30 gallon tank

@ 22.99 for 3 ounce pouch, good for 90 gallon tank


NEEDS TO BE REFRIGERATED....


My LFS swears by it, I used it for 72 gallon setup 1 1/2 weeks ago. So far no problems with water or fish.

The tank is fully stocked with fish. No waiting for the 4 weeks
cycle period.

[superstein61]

Nice to hear you want to do things right in your store !!!

Well most people would say the bacteria in a bottle / can / plastic container / etc products don't do a thing (although my wife would differ - LOL - arguing that the little yellow container of dried who knows what (I think it was Biozyme) she bought and had me put in my tank helped it cycle. I doubt it - but I just nod and move on - :D )

That said, I never tried Bio_spira - but you could easily test out what the Marineland rep is saying.

Simply set up a new standalone tank (don't use any water, material, filtration from other tanks in your store), add the Bio-Spira, and dose it with enough pure liquid ammonia to get a test reading of 5 ppm - just like you were doing a fishless cycle.

Monitor Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate daily and see if the tank is indeed cycling. If it works as quick as the sales rep claims - you should see the Ammonia levels drop to zero in a couple of days.

No need to test it with live fish - the cheap household ammonia will do the trick. then come back and let us know the results.

[JeffP]

DLeung10,

You are one of the first people I've heard actually use the BioSpira successfuly.

How many ounces did you add to your 72G?

Did you add fish right away or wait until the next day?

How many and what type and size of fish did you add?

Have you measured ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate?

It's easy to discount this product because previous products were relatively ineffective. Maybe Marineland's got it right?

I'd like to hear more about your experience with BioSpira.

Thanks:)

[DLeung10]

Used a 3 ounce pouch and put in the fish the tank day.

Most the the fish came from 2 smaller tanks. 2 New filters
and new gravel.

My kid's fish are:

7 Blood parrots ( 2 1/4 - 2 3/4 inches each)
3 Giant Danios ( 3 inches each)
2 Cory Cats ( 1 1/2 inches each)
4 Tiger Barbs ( 1 inch each)
2 Bala Sharks ( 2 1/2 , 3 inches)


Full tank as you can see......My kids want more but I am saying
no.....


No ammonia measured yet......I have not tried measuring Nitrites
at this time.


I recall reading some positive comments from New York
Aquarium in Brooklyn. Check out Marineland's website for
the testimonials


I selling a 3-month old 20 gallon AGA setup in the classified
section here.....take a look, I'm in New Jersey


Daniel

[DLeung10]

I put in the fish the same day as Bio Spira

[JeffP]

Dleung10,

Wow. That's really encouraging. I am setting up a new 110G and biospira is something I may have to look at. Feedback has been encouraging since this product was released in June of 2002.

If the product continues to perform, it will be interesting to see how many people will refuse to leave the somewhat lengthy and arduous fishless cycling process behind.

[Caleb]

Yeah, really.....wow, its just hard to believe that it can be done in one day for someone so used to cycling and curing as I am. I mean, it makes sense....but it also seems kinda fishy at the same time.

They won't let me get a sample pack....they said, either you buy it and trust us or don't get it type of a thing.....so I've been researching the product...and I'll definitely buy it from another sales rep if I buy it at all....

Keep the comments coming

Caleb

[DLeung10]

Some sales rep.........

One little pouch can you into a believer if it works....The point is
that he should let you see it for yourself. If it works for you, the
rep with have another account !

I have another 2 weeks to go...crossing my fingers....

[superstein61]

Dleung - it would be real helpful for you to test for Nitrites and Nitrates. not only for your own good, but also to help document the effectiveness or lack thereof of this product.

The no ammonia is a good thing - but they could easily accomplish that with some chemicals like those in Amquel / Ammolock / etc.

Seeing the presence of Nitrites / Nitrates early on would better prove how this is working

[Caleb]

Yeah, that would be helpful......but, ahh well, sales.....

Um, if you could do ME a favor and test the nitrates/nitrites....I would be very appreciative, but I can understand how you wouldn't want to spend 20 bucks on some chemicals....

or actually go into a reputable fish store and have them test it, but usually you have to ask....I usually only test PH and ammonia, if there is a problem with ammonia I then test nitrites/nitrates....so I would say ask for them to check...

Caleb

[DLeung10]

nitrites at 0.25...Is this good or bad at this time ?




I do not have a Nitrate kit...I plan to do a 25 percent water change on the 4th week...Then every 2 weeks after the first
water change and vacuuming of gravel.

The fish have been fed regularly twice a day.

[JSchmidt]

Any nitrites (i.e., nitrites greater than zero) are not good. That indicates that all the nitrites aren't getting processed into nitrates.

Not a good sign... in a cycled tank, nitrites should be zero.

Jim

[Caleb]

So it helps quite a bit but doesn't do what it claims....apparently I'm just antiquated or something, but I knew there had to be a gap in that cycle somewhere, you just can't get in 24 hours what you can with time

Caleb

[DLeung10]

I do not know the specific claims made by the company...


All I know is that my tank is fully stocked, never showed any
ammonia levels, my nitrite level is very low for a 1 1/2 week
setup...Is 0.25 that bad for a 1 1/2 week setup ? O.25 is the
next step after 0.00 on my test kit.

I think I saved several weeks of cycling and gradual adding of
fish. I added the fish on the same day I added Bio-Spira. My kids
got instant fish.

My only complaint so far is that is cost a little over 20 dollars
for a 3 ounce pouch.


Daniel

[OrionGirl]

Nitrites at all is bad. It indicates that the product didn't cycle the tank at all, it just is processing the ammonia (most likely it's converting it to ammonium, which is then being broken down by bacteria to nitrites). Not to say you shouldn't be pleased, but understand that your tank will still go through a cycling process, including a nitrite spike.

There were several people who were testing this product, and none of them have posted back with any results. Can't be sure, but I doubt this means the stuff was a miracle cure.

[RTR]

Sorry, disagree strongly OrionGirl - how can you say that it is just converting ammonia to ammonium if you have not tested that it is doing that? Dry lab is not science, and not good advice either. How can you say that the tank will still cycle unless you have the data to show that? I have heard second-hand reports of low nitrite readinga after use of BIo-Spira, but those never went any higher and became non-detectable within days. Those were not my data, so I cannot authenticate them, but that certainly does not sound like a full cycle to me.

"Nitrites at all is bad. It indicates that the product didn't cycle the tank at all..." Is not a valid statement. It may indicate insufficient nitrite-oxidizers, but it gives no information about the state of ammonia/ammonium without additional test results.

[keyman]

I paid $15 for a 3 ounce bottle-If you want to hear a conversation about bio spira I had with Dr. hovanec -its inventor---- use the link below-might take a while to load.

http://media1.select.net/wsradioarchive/sho_aquarium5012903.wma

segment 6

http://media1.select.net/wsradioarchive/sho_aquarium6012903.wma

http://www.petfishtalk.com/shows/preview.htm

[DLeung10]

An update....


I purchased an 8-9 inch solver arowana on Saturday (2/1/03)and a 4 inch ( not including tail) Red Parrot and added both to the
72 gallon tank.

Monday night, just took readings....no ammmonia and no nitrites...


Now I have to work on finding a new home for the smaller fish...



Anyone interested in buying a pair of Super Red parrots ?

or 3 giant danios ?

[DLeung10]

The pouch say "BIO-Spira accelerates the establishment of your
bio-filter in newly setup aquaria".

Also says "prevents new tank syndrome"...."prevents ammonia
and nitrite toxicity"...


IT DOES NOT SAY OVERNIGHT CYCLING of tank......I think some
people are expecting this product to do a 100 percent complete
cycle in 1-2 days !!

My view is that this product helps a lot. Takes away spikes
in readings. How many weeks would it take to add all these fish
if we used the traditional method of gradually adding fish ? My
kids did not want to wait 2 months. Kind of boring to start with
2 fish in a 72 gallon tank.


7 Blood parrots ( 2 1/4 - 2 3/4 inches each)
3 Giant Danios ( 3 inches each)
2 Cory Cats ( 1 1/2 inches each)
4 Tiger Barbs ( 1 inch each)
2 Bala Sharks ( 2 1/2 , 3 inches)

PLUS one 8-inch arowana and a 4 inch Red Parrot.

[FishOrCutBait]

I can speak from experience, the product works as advertised.

Your mileage may vary.

I setup an old 30 Gallon High tank, an Emperor 280 filter, undergravel filter, and 26 fish (!) consisting of twelve Neons, four Leopard Dainos, six Gouramies (three Three Spot and three Sunset), two Cory Cats and two Red Eye Tetras on 12/22/02. I added 3oz of Bio-Spira four days after the fish were added on 12/26/02.

Tank Log:
PH: 7.0

12/22/02 - New setup NH3 - 0, NO2 - 0

12/26/02 - Added Bio-Spira (3oz) NH3 - 3.0, NO2 - 0.3

12/27/02 - 5 gallon H2O change, NH3 - 3.0, NO2 - 0.3 (before H2O change)

12/29/02 - 5 gallon H2O change, NH3 - 1.5, NO2 - 0.3, NO3 - 12.5(before H2O change)

12/30/02 - NH3 - 0.25, NO2 - 1.6

12/31/02 - 5 gallon H2O change, NH3 - 0, NO2 - 1.6 (before H2O change)

1/5/03 - NH3 - 0, NO2 - 0, NO3 - 12.5

Considering the fish load, the accumulated NH3 and NO2 present before adding the Bio-Spira, it worked better than I could have hoped. I estimate the tank fully cycled in one week, with a four day full fish load in place when the Bio-Spira was added. The tank is clean as a whistle, and the fish are all happy and healthy.

I lost 4 Neons during the process, but I chalk that up to buying six fish at one store and six more at another store that were not as healthy or large. I did loose one Sunset Gourami about 10 days ago, well after the tank was cycled. I also chalk up his demise to him being rather timid and potentially diseased when he was purchased.

[Caleb]

OKay....the sales rep told me that it cycled the tank completely in 24 hours....What the packet says however is that it speeds the process up considerably. Thats a much different claim then what the sales rep said. With the claim on the packet stating it like that I will most likely get this product in my store, it seems to me it is the best biological filtration supplement....so why not?? I just doubting ANYTHING being able to cope with the addition of 12 fish or so the same night the chemical was added, get my drift?

Keep the comments coming I want to hear what EVERYONE has to say.

Caleb

[JeffP]

The body of evidence is not conclusive at this time but it looks promising. I believe Deleung added 18 fish the same day as the BioSpira without losing fish or experience a disease outbreak. There was a short period of detectable nitrite...maybe a mini-cycle as the tank adjusted to the heavier fish load. That could also happen with a fish or fishless cycle. Anyway, more cases need to be reported where people have immediately added fish without encountering "new tank syndrome."

I think a certain amount of skepticism is warranted given the number of years that ineffective cycling products have been marketed. As we all know, these didn't do squat except part fishkeepers from their money. But I don't know about criticizing the technical merits of a new product because you can't get a free sample. BioSpira claims to incorporate new research to eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) new tank syndrome. How many free samples should the manufacturer give away assuming that once people have an existing tank they may never (or only rarely) have need to use it again. Even if BioSpira is 100% effective, it will be considerably more expensive than using gravel, media, or water from an established tank.

As people use this product, successfully or not, I hope they post their results on this forum.

[JSchmidt]

I think it would be great if it did work, but if it contains live cultures of the nitrifying bacteria, I would expect there to ALWAYS be some negative results. It's hard to imagine any distribution and handling chain that won't occasionally have some slips (e.g., a case of the stuff left in the sun by mistake). If BioSpira does work as advertised -- even 9 times out of ten -- it would probably help a lot of people stay in the hobby instead of being driven out by tankful after tankful of fish dying from "unknown causes" (i.e., ammonia poisoning).

What will be really interesting, though, is what it does LFS business in selling all the junk they load onto people whose tanks are cycling. Maybe LFSs won't want it to succeed...?

Jim

[DLeung10]

Hello:


No ammonia or nitrite detected after adding the 8-9 inch arowana and 4-inch ( body only)red parrot cichlid.

I decided to spend 8 bucks 2 days ago to test nitrates for fellow members here. Nitrates were 10 ppm 2 days ago and heading
towards 20 ppm tonight. I also have not lost any fish ! Nor have
I had any diseases pop up yet.


I need to remind members here that my 72 gallon setup was from
scratch. New gravel and 2 new power filters. No water, media
or gravel from an established tank.


How about one of the moderators here plunking down 12 bucks
to test on a 20-30 gallon tank ? Put 6-9 messy feeder goldfish and check daily over a 2 week period ?




Daniel

[JSchmidt]

If I could find some locally, I'd buy some and cycle a bare tank using ammonia. No need to get fish to test whether BioSpira acually works.

If only it was carried locally...

Jim

[hatton3]

My LFS says that they have used BioSpira on setting up "business"tanks around town that they also perform weekly maintenance on. They told me that they have put a full load of fish in many brand spankin' new tanks with no die off and no spikes.

I read the research papers on NitroSpira and it was very illuminating. It would appear, by Dr. Hovanec's viewpoint, that NitroSpira is the actual oxidizing bacteria, not nitrosomonas or nitrobacter as we have been taught. He states that yes, Nitrosomonas do oxidize ammonia and Nitrobacter do oxidize nitrite. However, they are not the principle oxidizers in an aquarium environment.

One of his experiments was to place nitrosomonas and nitrobacter into a new tank's filter. What he found was that cultures of these two bacteria would completely die out and disappear after a 3 week period of time. This would account for why bacteria additives have not done any appreciable good in tanks thus far.

Finally, he extracted the bacteria from cycled tanks and through DNA extraction from the biofilm, DNA sequencing, PCR, molecular probing, etc. and found that the oxidizing bacteria in our filters is not related to nitrobacter winogradskyi or it's family. Instead it is very closely related to Nitrospira marina and Nitrospira moscoviensis. The DNA sequence is very different from the Nitrobacter family.

He also probed the substrate of multiple aquariums and found the same results - no nitrobacter or nitrosomonas. He did find strains of Nitrospira-like bacteria though.
Additionally and more importantly, it would seem that most of his research was more focused on the oxidation of ammonia, not nitrite. It would appear that science has been studying the wrong bacterium and this is why bacterial additives were inneffective - because they were of the wrong strain of bacteria.
The article was in the April 1999 edition of Aquarium Fish Magazine. Written by Timothy A. Hovanec entitled "Nitrospira, not nitrobacter."

In any case, I used it when I started my planted 55 gal. Granted, I put plants in the tank as well. I put a low fish load (ten 1" tetras and 1 dwarf gourami) and have had no ammonia spike or nitrite spike. Readings are consistently 0. Perhaps some of the nitrospira bacteria on the plants assisted the increased population of NitroSpira in the tank from the Bio-Spira (nitrospira) injection. In any case, Bio-Spira may not completely cycle the tank, but it would appear that it significantly shortens the cycle time and/or reduces spikes because it is apparently the right bacterial cultures. To me, that is worth investigating further.

One other thing, I think that it is a bit hasty to say that this additive does not work because of a small spike in nitrite. I would argue that a very small spike is better than a large one. For those that do not choose to cycle their tank fishless, it is a more humane way to cycle a tank with fish.

Research takes time and I'm willing to be optimistic. :)

Respectfully submitted,
John

[OrionGirl]

Sorry--bad phrasing on my part. I should have said that the presence of nitrites indicates that fully established bacteria colonies aren't present, and that additional testing should be done to verify that the ammonia is NOT being converted to ammonia but is actually being processed into nitrites.

Sorry. I apologize for using statements that aren't supported by facts. If I can find this product locally, I am willing to setup a spare tank and dose it with ammonia, and test it. Will let you know if I can do so.

[Caleb]

Well, I'm skeptical, but I am also willing to acknowledge a good product when I see one. When I first saw this my first thing was, great another useless additive. I'm willing to go out and try and find a fish store and buy it for my own research. My opinion is it greatly helps but doesn't completely cycle the tank in 24 hours. And my opinion of the sales rep.....well, if its such a great product and you want me to sell it without ever having heard or read anything about it besides a basic description, your pitch, and various things in magazines that never seemed fully conclusive, then you better provide me with a sample to test it and come to my own conclusion.....thats just the way I feel business should be. Heck, the aquarium Pharmaceuticals guy came in and gave me a filstar since we don't carry them and said try it on a tank and see if you like it. I don't know, maybe I just like being bribed with free things....

Caleb

[superstein61]

Originally posted by JeffP
But I don't know about criticizing the technical merits of a new product because you can't get a free sample. BioSpira claims to incorporate new research to eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) new tank syndrome. How many free samples should the manufacturer give away assuming that once people have an existing tank they may never (or only rarely) have need to use it again.

JeffP - I think you missed the point that the person who asked for the free sample was Caleb - who manages the local fish department in his area. The Salesperson was trying to get him to carry BioSpira - he noted he was skeptical as to the effectiveness of the product - and he asked the sales rep for a sample. I see nothing wrong with that.

I agree they shouldn't / couldn't apply free samples to the general public - but shoot, if I owned a LFS and cared enough to do things the right way like Caleb - and some sales rep wanted me to carry a product that I was leery about or unfamiliar with, asking for a sample to try makes perfect sense.

Shoot, in this case - whats a sample large enough to get a new 10 gallon tank gonna cost them? Not much at all - and when you compare it to their other sales and marketing costs, well not providing a LFS store a small sample is ludicrous and bad business

[RTR]

Caleb- Your attitude is nothing to be apologetic about. Given the number of products available for tanks, and the lack of peer-reviewed data on essentially all of these products, plus the costs of the product with the testing in your shop - non-trivial overhead costs to you for what realistically is trivial return... If Marineland promised you an exclusive within a one-hour drive radius and no mail order, well, you might consider it.

If the product does perform as advertised, it might reduce some of the early drop-out from our hobby. But it alone is not going to make aquarists out of folk that don't care enough to study about what they are doing. It is not going to shake the world, but it could help - if it works.

[JeffP]

I forgot that Caleb was in the position of an lfs manager. Given the history these type of products have had, I would think that MarineLand would bend over backwards to get as many lfs on board as possible.

RTR is right in that nothing will replace doing your homework and investing time and effort.

[hatton3]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
Sorry--bad phrasing on my part. I should have said that the presence of nitrites indicates that fully established bacteria colonies aren't present, and that additional testing should be done to verify that the ammonia is NOT being converted to ammonia but is actually being processed into nitrites.

Sorry. I apologize for using statements that aren't supported by facts. If I can find this product locally, I am willing to setup a spare tank and dose it with ammonia, and test it. Will let you know if I can do so.

Please, Please don't think that I was attacking you - that's not what I was trying to do.:o It just seemed that everyone wanted to throw it out the window because it was another "product." I still think something is better than nothing - although it is an expensive something! :D

[Caleb]

Well, I agree with doing the homework.....it seems like it does what it claims, so I think in the long run I might try and carry this product, but for right now, I'll see what everybody else says, do some research and probably go to the only place in town that carries it and buy some....

Just trying to make a difference in the hobby....somewhere

Caleb

[keyman]

It will be interesting if Marineland ever sells pre cultured bio wheels for the smaller filters like they do for larger commercial applications

[DLeung10]

Try this link..


http://www.fishgeeks.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7372

[goldfish freak]

Thanks for the link on Bio-Spira info. That is the most inforamtion and accounts on the use of the productthat I have seen in one place. It makes me want to give a try myself. Now if I could only find it here in Canada.

[rekfitz]

that arrowana is going to get to big for your tank take it back now

[wetmanNY]

If anyone wants to follow up John Hatton's excellent precis of Tim Hovanec's articles, two versions of them are archived at the Marineland website www.marineland.com in the Marineland Labs section: click on "Dr. Tim's articles."

Let me note that Hovanec published his hobbyist articles and his peer-reviewed articles before Marinland took him on board. I think that the development of Bio-Spira has been guided by Hovanec, based on his discoveries about the actual bacteria responsible for nitrification in aquariums.

I don't think you can combine Bio-Spira with "fishless cycling" using ammonia, though-- isn't the ammonia too strong for the nitrite-metabolizing bacteria? I think you're supposed to add fish.

[JSchmidt]

If you only dosed ammonia to about 3 ppm, it's hard to imagine that would seriously harm the nitrite eaters... most of the reports I recall of the second stage bacteria being repressed seemed to involve higher levels, above 5-6 ppm. When I fishless cycle, my nitrite eaters are exposed to 5 ppm ammonia every day and it doesn't seem to harm them.

I've got to get my hands on some of this stuff to do some testing...

Jim

[RBlanc]

Does anybody have some online links to purchase Bio-spira?

[superstein61]

OK- if you guys are really desparate to try Bio-Spira - this guy is selling it online:

http://www.fishstoretn.com/storecart.htm

Now supposedly - he is only selling it to fellow members of the forum he hangs out at

http://www.fishgeeks.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8859

The one caution I would throw out is that Bio-Spira does need to be kept refrigerated - and I don't see how he is doing that during shipment because his shipping/handling fee is pretty low. So I would inquire how he is keeping it cold during shipment

[wetmanNY]

Woo, superstein, have you stuck your nose out there today? Keeping that Bio-Spira cool should be no problem!

...but come July...

[superstein61]

Wetman - yes, true in my and your neck of the woods - but not sure if it goes done Florida or out to the west coast