View Full Version : ordering from "saltwaterfish.com"
kpatrick
02-02-2003, 8:37 PM
Has anyone ever heard of this company or ordered product from them? I was thinking about getting a cleaning crew from them since they have good prices and free shipping but wanted to see if anyone has had good or bad luck with them before.
Does anyone know of other online companies that are good to buy from that are reasonably priced?
Thanks
Boogiechillin
02-02-2003, 9:28 PM
Check www.justphish.com for cleaning crew inverts...they let you pick your own choices instead of offering set packages that you have to get.
BrianH
02-02-2003, 9:30 PM
I agree with justphish. The minimum clean up crew order for free shipping is $60.00. I ordered a crew from them and was totally satisfied.
Brian
kpatrick
02-02-2003, 10:44 PM
hey i just checked out the website you recommended but found that even if I build my own cleaning crew, they are still much more expensive then the guys at saltwaterfish.com. anyone else ever bought from saltwaterfish.com?
frosty
02-03-2003, 7:16 AM
I bought from there and was pleased with the health and quality of the crew, but my one complaint is that I was new to saltwater and alot of the things they claimed to be reef safe that were included turned out not to be. They sold me a lobster that killed half the inverts in the tank before I got rid of him, and the scarlet crabs all killed each other.
JustPhish
02-03-2003, 9:05 AM
Hi there. Thanks everyone for the recommendation.
Kpatrick, I went to that site and checked out their u build it packages and I am not sure just what you found I was much more expensive on? The only thing I saw that was cheaper was the serpent stars at $.03 cheaper than what I have them for. Everything else I offer in my clean up crews was more expensive. They also have a $75 min plus $4 fedex charge (never heard of this by fedex btw) so that's $79 for your order as opposed to spending $60.
Just wondering.
heedicus
02-03-2003, 9:25 AM
hey there phish,
why dont you add on a cleaner shrimp to the build it yourself? no one ever does that, sure do wish they did.
tren
kpatrick
02-03-2003, 9:36 AM
JustPhish,
First let me say that you come well recommended and I appreciate the fact that you checked into this matter with me. To answer your question about saltwaterfish.com, they have a package called "The Big 20 BONUS PACK" for $69.99 with free shipping.
This pack includes:
20-scarlet reef hermits
30-blue leg hermits
20-turbo snails
2 emerald crabs
They recommend this for a 55 gallons or higher and I have a 125.
I priced the items seperately on your site and found that it would cost me more for the same package if I went with JustPhish. I could of added wrong or missed something but I will go back out to your site and check it out again to double check myself. If you are comparable then I would have no problem at all buying from your company especially since you did take the time to write and since I havent heard any complaints from other people about you.
Thanks
JustPhish
02-03-2003, 10:26 AM
Heedicus, thanks for the suggestion. The problem is, in order to offer something with a clean up crew which include free shipping, I have to buy it for a good enough price that I can afford to work the cost of shipping it and still come out ahead. At $12 for a cleaner, I don't make enough to also ship it for free.
Right now my crews are hit or miss. Sometimes I'm ahead, sometimes I'm behind. I believe in the end it will average out in my favor, but we'll see. In the meantime they bring me a lot of exposure so I can justify the loss as advertising expense.
Kpatrick, I thought you had said you were looking at their U-build it versus mine which is why I was confused.
Comparing their packages to my packages can't really be done because they aren't the same. You also can't compare their packages to my build your own and vice versa because the costs are different between prebuilt and build your own. For example my package 6 would cost you $213 if you built it yourself.
They also have an advantage in that they are close enough they can pick up their clean up crew critters locally where I have to pay shipping to get them up here to the Northeast. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to hear they collect the critters themselves which is just another advantage.
I understand what you're saying now. The much more expensive comment is what threw me off because I just don't see that.
HTH
Corax
02-03-2003, 11:36 AM
Hey Justphish, I've been pondering odering from your site but the lack of a "stay alive" policy has keep me browsing... Marine Depot offers a 7 day stay alive, as does Live Aquaria and many others... Is this something you intend to add in the near future (say the next month...) or will it remain only live arrival as it is now?
btw, I looked at the cleaner packages and I found them to be well thought out and balanced... Live Aquaria used to offer some that included things such as arrow crabs or coral banded shrimp with other shrimp... I wrote them and now they have less conflicting contents in them... Wouldn't have been so bad if they would have let you remove some items, but they were dead locked...
Satchmo
02-03-2003, 3:03 PM
Originally posted by heedicus
why dont you add on a cleaner shrimp to the build it yourself?
You can add on a cleaner to your order once you satisfy the $60 minimum. When I ordered through him I added on a skunk cleaner and a tuxedo urchin and was only responsibe for the increase in shipping costs (which was a few dollars). I'll add another testimonial for Just Phish- good outfit, good guy.
JustPhish
02-03-2003, 7:32 PM
Well Ravencad, I'll tell you. There's no real reason. Do you think that a 5 or 7 day after arrival guarantee really sets peoples mind at ease? Do you think that it's the final nail in the coffin so to speak for someone who can't decide between me and somoene else? I'm curious as to how much it really impacts my sales.
To be perfectly honest, no one has been stuck yet in the rare event something goes wrong with their order. I even honor claims from locals who pick their stuff which many places won't do. Why they don't I have no idea. I'd feel much better about the health of an animal which spent one hour in a bag with only one person handling it than one with 12 hours in the bag with who knows how many people tossing it around. Anyways, as I've stated to others about the temp rule, it goes on a case by case basis. In the recent cold snap some people did lose an emerald crab or a snail here and there. Those couple people were credited instantly with no questions asked even though it was well below the temps in the conditions.
Do you think that the majority of people would jump through all the hoops necessary to get their credit? I can only think of one person in the two years I have been in business that actually saved a DOA animal and asked me if I wanted them to send it back. (No real big deal as there aren't many people who've been in that situation, but still, just a point).
Wouldn't have been so bad if they would have let you remove some items, but they were dead locked...
Exactly. I believe my website is quite clear about substitutions. I really don't think there's anything more I can do to draw attention to the rule without getting gaudy. But yet, people still call me and demand that I substitute and exchange all sorts of things for them. Just recently I had one gentleman call me, demand I exchange the clean up crew items for other stuff since it was the same price retail and actually got abusive when I calmly explained that I could not. They just didn't want to hear it. The auto parts store I went to the other day for some car soap had a package that included some car wax couple with the soap for X dollars. What do you think their response would have been had I ripped the wax from the package and demanded they instead give me a steering wheel cover equal in price to the wax?
After numerous calls with all sorts of demands I decided to call the other places out there that offer clean up crews. Guess what? None that I called allow substitutions within a package nevermind swapping out $45 worth of crabs for $45 worth of cleaners. So I think people are pretty well off with me by even allowing subs.
I think if you deal with me you'll find that I'm quite fair and accomodating. I am always up for constructive criticism and suggestions. I enjoy hearing from customers and potential customers so if you've got anything else you'd like to throw at me, I'm all ears.
HTH
slipknottin
02-03-2003, 7:35 PM
I think your the only local place that would do that, I havent found 1 single place around here that has any type of warranty on any SW stuff.
Oh and Ill probably be picking up some critters sometime soon. Maybe a clam and some SPS frags also in the next month or two. Ill let you know.
JustPhish
02-05-2003, 1:00 PM
Ravencad, I was kinda looking forward to your feedback. Any you have would be appreciated.
Actually, the stay alive guarantee is one of the reasons I order from Marine Depot and Live Aquaria... My LFS has no guarantee, of any kind, period, on anything sw and I personally think that stinks... They can guarantee an $80 Discus, but not a $30 clown, interesting... I cannot look at the fish before buying it, but I know those MO places are PROBABLY not going to send me a deformed fish, but if they do and it dies, they stand behind it... Live Aquaria even ships the replacement free of charge cuz they say it isn't my fault they send an unhealthy critter... They do require the corpse, and for a replacement and free shipping, I'm happy to comply with that small request. Marine Depot gives a credit, but the shipping is your own to cover, hence the reason I go with Live Aquaria...
I fully respect the fact that you say no one has been stuck yet, and that is GREAT that you take care of your customers when a problem occurs... But, had I not talked to you here, one on one, I'd have no idea of that fact... Put that guarantee in writing on your page, then you make my list of suppliers =)
I asked if it would happen within the next month because I'm planning an order with a couple of my buddies and the stay alive guarantee is something we all 3 require. I hope to see it pop up on your page soon, cuz I also wanna get a cleanup crew for my 29 and I like your way of doing it... :D
JustPhish
02-05-2003, 2:56 PM
I cannot look at the fish before buying it, but I know those MO places are PROBABLY not going to send me a deformed fish, but if they do and it dies, they stand behind it... Live Aquaria even ships the replacement free of charge cuz they say it isn't my fault they send an unhealthy critter... They do require the corpse, and for a replacement and free shipping, I'm happy to comply with that small request. Marine Depot gives a credit, but the shipping is your own to cover, hence the reason I go with Live Aquaria...
Yeah I understand about not being able to see the fish and or coral, but I believe there is where there's a huge difference between them and I. First, fish aren't placed on the site unless they are eating what I offer. No matter what. Second, you can see exactly what you are buying from me. There's no touched up photos, no "this picture represents what you will receive, as in nature expect variation", etc etc. If I have more than one thing of something, for example firefish, I take a pic of one or two. If you wanted all four and really needed a pic of all of them, I'd be more than happy to oblige. I've gone so far as to measure each mushroom on a rock for a customer, take pics of live rock which I thought looked like what a customer would want for another, etc etc. I believe that says something about a place and also justifies a higher price (though I believe I am cheaper than both marine depot and live aquaria in most instances anyways).
I'm reading live aquaria site and their guarantee has me a bit confused. In one part it says that they will credit for the shipping as well and in another part it gives me the impression that you can only get a credit for shipping if it's DOA and you call the same day you receive it DOA. Also it appears they require a water sample to ensure parameters are within their limits. What about having to follow their acclimation prcedures? How are they or anyone supposed to know if you did in fact follow them? They are supposed to trust you, but you won't trust them to send you a healthy animal? "You" here does not mean you personally but anyone who orders.
Live aquaria is huge. They do millions of dollars in business each year. They can certainly afford to offer credit on shipping costs and still make money. Marine depot is not nearly as large, but still considerably larger than me. I can't afford to cover the cost of critters as well as shipping for folks who didn't know their zebra moray was going to eat their emerald crabs on day six. Or didn't know that blue spot jawfish can jump out of the tank on day seven. Or even for people who throw animals into their tank without even knowing if the tank can handle live stuff yet. What I'm getting at is my being responsible for the stupidity of others. I can only go so far in a phone conversation.
Here's a few things to consider when ordering online. Live aquaria has a min order. I don't. Live aquaria needs an order in by 9:30 am central time for it to have a shot at going out the same day. You can call me at 5:30 est and if I am around and have what you need, chances are I can pack it up and you will have it the following morning. Live aquaria, from what I am told, has the people taking orders in an entirely different location than where the live stock is. If I'm home when you call me, I can go downstairs and take a look at the exact fish you are looking at on my site and see how good it's looking. Live aquaria will ship your order even with only a 90% fill rate. I will tell you flat out when you call that either I have everything, or I don't have XYZ, what do you want to do? Many places (I don';t believe live aquaria does) have a box charge plus heat pack charge. I just spent the last two hours while my boy napped making boxes out of shipping boxes and styro I bought at depot last night while watching Judge Judy and Judge Joe Brown. No charge. In fact, UPS just delivered a case of heat packs to me which cost me a few hundred $. No charge. You can see the exact critter you are getting from me (clean up crews excluded)...etc etc etc. As you can see, IMHO it shouldn't always come down to simply who has the better guarantee. If I did millions a year I could guarantee my stuff for months.
K, time to put these boxes downstairs and vacuum before my wife comes home and flips over all the styro bits littering the livingroom.
Thanks again for your input.
I understand your reasoning, but I prefer the security blanket that Live Aquaria gives me... Might pay a bit more in some isntances, but if it gets here ok and then dies a couple days later, (and I'm not talking about an eel eating a crab or a suicidal jawfish) what have you REALLY saved? Nothing, yer out the animal, the cost of the animal and the cost of the shipping...
I always assume something will not survive the order and plan accordingly...
oh, about Live Aquaria's policy... I ordered a cleanup crew for my 55 and the Scarlett hermits were about 75% DOA and the rest were barely moving... I called the same day to report it and they shipped me 25 new ones the following week, 100% replacement, 100% free...
JohnMemorialHS
02-05-2003, 10:04 PM
I've never ordered fish online before, but if I was going to order some, it'd be from JustPhish now. Sure LiveAquaria and Marine depot has gurantee, but that just shows me how big of a business they are. Not even LFS have gurantee on SW fish, simply because 1) not as high mark up as FW fish and 2) most SW fish are wild-caught, so unless it's 100 acclimated to tank environments, there's a good chance they could go belly up. Sounds like JustPhish not only cares about customer's money, but their time and effort as well. They want to do things right the first time, not the 2nd or the 5th time. For the time and serivice, I'd risk losing 40 or 50 bucks for a fish and get the respect, Screw big corporations, they just want your money (No Offense)
Corax
02-05-2003, 10:28 PM
Sorry, when I'm buying a $100 fish, I'd rather know I'm covered if anything comes up than to know the guy that packed it with his own 2 loving hands... Yeah, I like helping little guys when I can, and if he sells dry goods I'll be happy to compare some prices, but the simple fact is that bad things happen during shipping and fish don't always make it...
When I first started my sw tanks I learned the hard what that Dwarf Zebra Lions are NOT good shippers... If I'd paid the LFS for em, I would have been out 2 fish and 80 bux... But, Marine Depot gave me credit on both of those fish...
To say you'd rather lose the 80 bux than support a "big corporation" is simply poor judgement...
Let me ask this instead...
If the package is so caringly wrapped, fish treated so well, blah blah blah, then why cant a warranty be given? Water quality? Require a water sample... It's pretty easy to tell a fresh batch of change water from some nice lived in tank water, both in appearance and under a microscope... Some places require you to take the same exact fish as the loss, which I think is a very good way to cover you incase you find, God forbid, someone that would rather order the Flame Angel, decide they don't like it, off it, then use the credit to order the Yellow Tang instead...
I fully understand the reasoning for not giving a warranty when you are small, but your reasoning for why one ISN'T needed frankly doesn't hold water...
JustPhish
02-05-2003, 11:10 PM
Thanks for the backup John
First off, I don't think I'd ever spend $100 on a fish at a place who's never even seen the thing. Sure they may guarantee it, but if the thing croaks I still have my time and headaches invested and that to me is worth $$ too. And what happens when they resend it and it croaks again? They're still sending a fish the person who took your order has never even seen.
Sorry, when I'm buying a $100 fish, I'd rather know I'm covered if anything comes up than to know the guy that packed it with his own 2 loving hands... Yeah, I like helping little guys when I can, and if he sells dry goods I'll be happy to compare some prices, but the simple fact is that bad things happen during shipping and fish don't always make it...
Well here is where I disagree. I'd think that someone who actually had the fish in sight, not in another state would be the one that got my money. Yeah, there's something to be said for a long guarantee, but there's even more to be said for outstanding service IMHO. You can't get me to change my mind on that...it's MHO.
When I first started my sw tanks I learned the hard what that Dwarf Zebra Lions are NOT good shippers... If I'd paid the LFS for em, I would have been out 2 fish and 80 bux... But, Marine Depot gave me credit on both of those fish...
Here's a fine example of when a little conversation with a vendor who actually cared about their stock would have saved some hassle, money, and a fish. But on the other end, I've never heard, nor experienced a dwarf zebra lion not shipping well.
To say you'd rather lose the 80 bux than support a "big corporation" is simply poor judgement...
I don't think he said he'd rather lose the $80. Again, I believe dealing with a more personal vendor allows for better resolution should there be problems rather than just throwing more fish and shipping at someone.
If the package is so caringly wrapped, fish treated so well, blah blah blah, then why cant a warranty be given? Water quality? Require a water sample... It's pretty easy to tell a fresh batch of change water from some nice lived in tank water, both in appearance and under a microscope... Some places require you to take the same exact fish as the loss, which I think is a very good way to cover you incase you find, God forbid, someone that would rather order the Flame Angel, decide they don't like it, off it, then use the credit to order the Yellow Tang instead...
Why? Again, my biggest concern is dishonest people and all those who don't believe the rules apply to them. Look at all the people who actually curse at me because I don't allow subs out of a package. "Can't you do it just for me?" Sure, then what grounds do I stand on when I try to tell the next guy I can't sub out? You think everyone is so quick to follow the rules and you probably would, but try being on my end.
When someone shares an unfavorable vendor experience, what's the first thing out of most peoples mouth? Chargeback!! No one even gives a crap if the vendor is in the right. There's a $35 cost to the vendor right there. At least with my bank it is. In reality, what do you think someone is going to do when they send me a water sample and I find the nitrates were over 100 so I say I can't honor the guarantee? He'll initiate a chargeback. I can guarantee that at least.
Before when I said 90% fill rate, I don't mean they'll send you 90 hermits when you ordered 100. I mean if you ordered 10 things, they'll still ship you the 9 without notification and be proud they have such a "high" fill rate.
What does live aquarias guarantee say to me if I were at least a semi informed joe bochagalupo customer? It says to me that they can't even see their livestock so how are they going to even be able to tell it's healthy before shipping? But they got money to throw around to make up for it by offering a gurantee like that. And charge more for less service to boot! Again, MHO Just today I saw on the boards where someone used Foster and Smith to place an order and they couldn't even tell him if the stuff shipped when it was supposed to cause they can't see the stock. Turns out, they never shipped it and they didn't realize they never shipped it until 9pm the night it was supposed to go out.
I fully understand the reasoning for not giving a warranty when you are small, but your reasoning for why one ISN'T needed frankly doesn't hold water...
I'm sorry Ravencad, I can show you my books if you really like. I can't afford to pay for the stupidity and carelessness of others no matter if you think my reason holds water or not. Even still though, I am considering offering one to see how it works out. How about you volunteer to be my liason to customers and advise me on some of the ridiculous claims, and threats, I will be sure to get?
TTYL
Satchmo
02-06-2003, 9:16 AM
Just to add to this discussion, the best experiences I've had with shipped livestock has been through small, one-man operations. Just Phish, The Logical Reef, SPS Frags, to name a few good ones. These are hobbyists like us. When you call, you talk to the guy who runs the show, who will be picking out your animals, and who will be boxing and shipping your order. The personal service from outfits like these far outweighs the benefits of an extended guarantee from a faceless company whose contact person knows little about the hobby and even less about what they're selling.
Anytime something has gone wrong with an order from one of these small-time outfits (guarantee or not), I have been completely satisfied with the way it has been resolved.
Long live the little guy.
I've ordered several times from Live Aquaria and I've gotten 100% fill everytime, even on a cleanup crew order... I've had one loss with them and that was a rancid bag of hermit crabs (its odd, cuz the SAME kind of hermit crabs, scarletts, came in from marine depot DOA on a previous order also... Their bag had leaked and the crabs were high and VERY dry... The LA crabs were just dead in the bag for the most part...) and they replaced them all at their own expense... That's the service I want, that's the service I choose and you'll never convince me otherwise that having your butt covered when something goes wrong is a bad thing...
Here is my last say on this subject: You want my business? Institute the stay alive policy.. I'm happy to jump through your hoops cuz frankly, if my water killed it, I need to know that... How bout, for people to qualify for they policy, you make em send in a water sample FIRST? That way, you know your stock is going to a suitable (water wise anyway) home where they SHOULD thrive...
As for the job offer, I dunno, what's it pay? :D
BrianH
02-06-2003, 10:47 AM
I second the reasons stated by Kevin, (satchmo). I've only bought live critters or rock so far from justphish, Gulf-View and am currently in the process of ordering from the logical reef and so far have been very pleased. The difference I see in these smaller operations is in the personal attention/advice offered. I have not even compared their prices to the larger operations. But I do feel much more comfortable discussing the facts, risks and benefits of a particular order with the actual person responsible for the whole operation. I also really appreciate the service of photographing the exact piece I plan to buy. IMHO this is the only advantage my LFS has had over MO. I've seen justphish offer this service on their website and the logical reef has just emailed me some pictures of livestock to pick from. To me, this attention to detail has made me a current and future customer of these fine organizations.
Brian
heedicus
02-06-2003, 12:58 PM
hey all,
I have been following this thread and just wanted to post. JustPhish you have just gotten yourself a new customer. I am very impressed with your commitment to your business and the satisfaction of your customer. I too own my own business and totally agree with your practices with the whole 7 day gaurantee (or how ever you spell it). Sadly a huge new SW store just opened up down the street and I have a trade account with them but if I every order from a MO company again it will be with you.
Keep up the good work,
tren
JustPhish
02-06-2003, 2:43 PM
That's the service I want, that's the service I choose and you'll never convince me otherwise that having your butt covered when something goes wrong is a bad thing...
I don't think yopu are understanding what I'm saying. I never said having your butt covered was a bad thing. What I did was respond with the pros and cons of a stay alive guarantee for me, when you asked me if I was going to implement one. That's all. Again, never did I say having your butt covered was bad.
How bout, for people to qualify for they policy, you make em send in a water sample FIRST? That way, you know your stock is going to a suitable (water wise anyway) home where they SHOULD thrive...
This would never work. In this business you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. If I sell anything to everyone without a care in the world for the critters, I'm labled as a poop bird (keeping it clean) out to just make money. If you come to me and want a carpet anemone to stick under your 40w NO lights and I refuse to sell it to you, I'm an arrogant poop bird and you'll just go down the street and buy it from the other guy. Happens every single day.
There's no way someone would pay to send me their water for me to test and then have me decide if they are worthy enough to be my customers.
As for the job offer, I dunno, what's it pay?
How about countless stories to share with family members at gatherings about the insane and arrogant people you've had the pleasure of dealing with? Priceless ;)
Thanks for the input everyone. I greatly appreciate it.
kpatrick
02-08-2003, 8:23 PM
Hey JustPhish,
Many people have had good words to say about your company but before I do order from you I do have a question about the size of a few items.
If I order your Emerald Crabs, how big are they?? dime size, nickel size, quarter size, or smaller?
same with the sally light foot and the scarlet hermits?
Im just curious about the sizes before I make my order.
also, do you ever get any strawberry crabs?
Thanks
JustPhish
02-09-2003, 10:32 PM
kpatrick, because of the prices on the clean up crews being as low as they are, most if not all critters included are "nets" choice. You can see and get a pretty good idea of how many of each critter I have on hand so sizes vary widely. For the most part since I ship so much and as close to the deadline as possible, I grab the first number I see that I need and can catch without turning the place upside down.
If you have a smaller tank and need a smaller emerald, it shouldn't be a problem. But I just don;t have the time to put out a nickel or a quarter and go hunting for emeralds, peppermints, etc etc that measure up to that.
HTH
JustPhish
02-16-2003, 4:32 PM
Well Ravencad, it's up....just for you. ;)
We'll see how this goes.
Awesome, but I can't tell ya when to expect sumthin though... Me and my buds ordered from Liveaquaria on Thursday =( I'm sure I'll need some new cleaners in about 6 months, so I'll keep ya in mind =) Got anything that eats bryopsis?!?
JustPhish
02-16-2003, 8:04 PM
Didn't mean just for you to order...just wanted to show that I took your input and am applying it on a trial basis.
For bryopsis I get those lettuce nudis on demand. I have four now but they were supposed to ship friday. THe guy never called called me to order them though so I suppose I have to wait until Monday to see if he says anything.
I went to your page cuz a friend of mine is looking to buy a cleanup crew, but she wants a warranty cuz it's her first time doing mail order... So, I was reading your warranty and found this part:
"Your water must test within these acceptable ranges. Ammonia 0, Alkalinity 2.5 to 5.0 meq/L, Calcium 400 to 475 mg/L, Nitrate less than 25ppm, Nitrite 0, pH 8.2-8.4, and SG 1.021-1.025. You will have to include a separate water sample with your critter if returning. "
I agree with most of your parameters except the calc... Only reef tanks need to have calc of that high a concentration, and her FO system obviously isn't going to qualify for your warranty.
Setting some standards is a good thing, but to have such specific requirements as this on a warranty is a bit much... Not everyone that needs a cleanup crew is keeping a reef tank, ya know?
She asked me for a good place to get her crew and I sent her to your page... I hadn't read your policy yet, cuz I didn't expect to be ordering anything for a long time, but she is ordering sometime this week I believe... So far, yer not gonna make a dime off of her...
Tweak yer policy, then lemme know ;)
Well, all crabs and other crustaceans (sp?) need this much calcium to thrive, even though lower levels don't kill them instantly, it will in time...
Anyway, if I were in the states, i'd order from small vendors like Phish.
SpongeBob
02-24-2003, 8:45 PM
After reading this post I'll be giving JustPhish some business. I like the fact that he cares enough to post his philosophies on this board. Sure he’s promoting as well, but I like his passion...
JustPhish
02-26-2003, 5:55 AM
Thanks kev and sponge bob.
Ravencad, I think you're being extremely critical of just one TINY aspect of the entire guarantee. As I explained before, my claims when I have any, are on a case by case business. Second, NSW calcium levels are between 425 and 450! I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people are at the very least changing their water. Simple water changes, when you have little demand should be more than enough to keep your calcium stable. Along with calcium being stable goes alk and pH. They all work together.
60% of the places I looked at while deciding my criteria have a temperature clause. When temps along the route are below 40 and above 90 degrees then the guarantee is void. Well come on now, tell me one part of the country that doesn't have temps outside that range at any given time of the year?
The idea behind the water parameters is general for the sake of brevity. A little common sense goes a long way. Surely you don't expect me to say...
flame angels are very sensitive to nitrates, for these to qualify for the gurantee the nitrates must be less than 10.
skunk clowns are very sesitive to copper, yours must be below blah blah blah.
If you're buying sps your calcium must be above 425
If you're buying mushrooms your calc must be above 375
if you're buying star polyps your calcium must be above 390
Etc etc etc.
Instead I place a range which is a little less than nsw. Very fair IMHO especially considering that there's a 7!!! day guarantee!
Now, back to the common sense. If someone orders a clean up crew and says they had deaths and sends me back everything as needed, do you think I'm going to measure what the caclium was? Of course not. What does it matter what the calcium was? The chances are they were probably killed by ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites if not from something else that wanted them as dinner.
If someone makes a claim on sps then you bet I am going to check what the calcium was as that is a critical part of keeping them alive and well.
In all honesty, if someone is so hesitant to spend 10 cents because I list that calcium levels, of all things, should be at least close to nsw levels in a 7 day guarantee, then they are probably extremely fussy to begin with and will find fault with every minute detail of the order thus being quite difficult to please. For the 10 cents? I could take it or leave it.
Thanks again for your input, but that is not going to change. I think I'm being VERY fair in my criteria for offering a guarantee which is an industry leader and I can only find one other place who offers it and none who isn't a big huge corporation.
TTYL
Corax
02-26-2003, 12:31 PM
Ravencad, I think you're being extremely critical of just one TINY aspect of the entire guarantee.
Might be tiny, but it gives you a way out of the guarantee which leaves your customer out in the cold... Not saying yer gonna take it, but I like to have ALL my bases covered when I'm doing business...
As I explained before, my claims when I have any, are on a case by case business.
I, as a consumer, want it in writing. I'm sorry, but the "good old boy" system don't work via email... If you were local and I could walk in, chit chat, maybe that would be different, but on the web, a policy, is a policy, is a policy...
Second, NSW calcium levels are between 425 and 450! I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people are at the very least changing their water. Simple water changes, when you have little demand should be more than enough to keep your calcium stable. Along with calcium being stable goes alk and pH. They all work together.
I tested my change water which is made with Instant Ocean the other day: 320ppm on Calc... My non-depleted change water won't even pass your requirements.. =)
60% of the places I looked at while deciding my criteria have a temperature clause. When temps along the route are below 40 and above 90 degrees then the guarantee is void. Well come on now, tell me one part of the country that doesn't have temps outside that range at any given time of the year?
Yer point being? How is a shipping policy the same as a very nit-picky requiment on calc? Totally unrelated...
The idea behind the water parameters is general for the sake of brevity. A little common sense goes a long way. Surely you don't expect me to say...
flame angels are very sensitive to nitrates, for these to qualify for the gurantee the nitrates must be less than 10.
skunk clowns are very sesitive to copper, yours must be below blah blah blah.
If you're buying sps your calcium must be above 425
If you're buying mushrooms your calc must be above 375
if you're buying star polyps your calcium must be above 390
Etc etc etc.
I think the people ordering those items are, or at least should be, aware of those requirements... Perhaps listing them with the individual species would help to ensure such a blanket policy isn't required? Most people that order sw fish are very sensitive to their fish's needs, and if made aware of them properly, will make sure they meet them...
Instead I place a range which is a little less than nsw. Very fair IMHO especially considering that there's a 7!!! day guarantee!
7 days is what everyone gives... Ya want an award?
Now, back to the common sense. If someone orders a clean up crew and says they had deaths and sends me back everything as needed, do you think I'm going to measure what the caclium was?
Acording to your policy, yes I do think you are going to...
Of course not. What does it matter what the calcium was?
It matters FOR YOUR POLICY...
The chances are they were probably killed by ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites if not from something else that wanted them as dinner.
I agree, your policy should be adjusted to reflect that those water parameters do NOT matter instead of so clearly implying that they do and will disqualify me from the guarantee unless I meet them...
If someone makes a claim on sps then you bet I am going to check what the calcium was as that is a critical part of keeping them alive and well.
Fair enough, having a policy specifically for SPS or anything else that requires those levels of calc and alk would be WONDERFUL, I agree that would be a very warranted policy... But a blanket policy saying (or at least implying) that if your Percula clown (just an example..) dies and your calc isn't 400ppm, then you are out of luck, is not a good policy IMHO...
In all honesty, if someone is so hesitant to spend 10 cents because I list that calcium levels, of all things, should be at least close to nsw levels in a 7 day guarantee, then they are probably extremely fussy to begin with and will find fault with every minute detail of the order thus being quite difficult to please.
Am I the only person that reads the details on policies before I order? I really doubt that I am ;) My friend that needs the cleaning crew is the one that pointed it out to me, so obviously she was reading the policies before she orders as well...
For the 10 cents? I could take it or leave it.
Myself and 3 friends just ordered about $400 from Live Aquaria... That's a lot of dimes :D
Thanks again for your input, but that is not going to change. I think I'm being VERY fair in my criteria for offering a guarantee which is an industry leader and I can only find one other place who offers it and none who isn't a big huge corporation.
Then I'll continue ordering from Live Aquaria/Etropicals and I'll suggest that to anyone that asks for a good place to shop... The friend buying the clean up crew ordered from them today after seeing your response to my concern... Her order will be here Friday... I have another friend currently cycling her tank that will be needing a crew in probably 4 weeks... Lemme know if you change your policy =)
JustPhish
02-26-2003, 1:21 PM
Might be tiny, but it gives you a way out of the guarantee which leaves your customer out in the cold... Not saying yer gonna take it, but I like to have ALL my bases covered when I'm doing business...
You don't seem to understand that I too must have all my bases covered. If I was looking for a way out of the guarantee, I just wouldn't offer it. Plain and simple. I really don't appreciate the notion I am simply looking for a way out. I'm quite active on as many boards as I have time for and I actually formed my guarantee from your input!
I took your feedback, and implemented something which I feel is very fair and quite competitive. Once we get over the calcium then you could come at with me your very same example that your fish only friend doesn't need to keep her sg at 1.021-1.025 since many fish only folks, and many wholesalers and LFS keep their sg at 1.017. So now I gotta change my criteria to include those people and then have countless stars, sps, and many other sg sensitive critters perish? No thanks. You can pick it apart all day long. Fact remains it's extremely fair.
I, as a consumer, want it in writing. I'm sorry, but the "good old boy" system don't work via email... If you were local and I could walk in, chit chat, maybe that would be different, but on the web, a policy, is a policy, is a policy...
Well, I can't please everyone all the time. I'm fortunate enough to have run into enough great people in this hobby that a good solid relationship is better than anything they can find in writing in their minds.
Yer point being? How is a shipping policy the same as a very nit-picky requiment on calc? Totally unrelated...
My point being? Well my point is anyone can select anything from anywhere and be critical about it.
I think the people ordering those items are, or at least should be, aware of those requirements...
Well here's where being in the business gives me an advantage. In utopia this would be a true statement. But in reality? I don;t even want to comment.
Most people that order sw fish are very sensitive to their fish's needs, and if made aware of them properly, will make sure they meet them...
Again, another statement that would be wonderful if true. Maybe it's those rose colored glasses. I am fond of wearing them myself. ;)
7 days is what everyone gives... Ya want an award?
What? Where? Only other place I have run across that gives seven days in live aquaria. Can you give me a few links of "every place gives that?"
Acording to your policy, yes I do think you are going to...
Nice to see you are calling me a liar right out of the gate. I already said I would not. I might have to if I looked at everyone the same way you look at me. Obviously my explaining the same thing over and over to you is useless. Again, I don't appreciate the implication.
Am I the only person that reads the details on policies before I order? I really doubt that I am My friend that needs the cleaning crew is the one that pointed it out to me, so obviously she was reading the policies before she orders as well...
No, probably not. But I do believe you and your friend are one of the few who wouldn't bother emailing me or calling me to talk or at least clarify.
Myself and 3 friends just ordered about $400 from Live Aquaria... That's a lot of dimes
Yeah it is. But I could have sworn you mentioned one dime before. Not 4000. You really think that I would leave someone who spent that much money with me out in the cold if something happened through no fault of their own? Come on now. I know a repeat customer is better than any other kind! Wait a sec, yeah, you probably do think that despite my saying several times earlier I wouldn't. Afterall, you've already implied I'm dishonest.
Then I'll continue ordering from Live Aquaria/Etropicals and I'll suggest that to anyone that asks for a good place to shop... The friend buying the clean up crew ordered from them today after seeing your response to my concern... Her order will be here Friday... I have another friend currently cycling her tank that will be needing a crew in probably 4 weeks
... Lemme know if you change your policy =)
That's fine, this is the great country of America and you and your friends are free to do what you wish just as I am.
My policy will not change. I have not seen an increase in business due to the new guarantee so I could probably give it the heave ho and still charlie mike like I have been these past couple of years. Along with my guarantee goes all the service that I mentioned in countless previous posts in this very same thread. No partial fills, pictures of the actual item you are receiving, actually having the livestock in my posession when we are on the phone instead of housing it across the country etc etc etc. Obviously you think that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. That just fine.
Tell me...
Your policy clearly states:
"Your water must test within these acceptable ranges. Ammonia 0, Alkalinity 2.5 to 5.0 meq/L, Calcium 400 to 475 mg/L, Nitrate less than 25ppm, Nitrite 0, pH 8.2-8.4, and SG 1.021-1.025. You will have to include a separate water sample with your critter if returning. "
And now I see this crap because I expect you to follow that policy:
"Nice to see you are calling me a liar right out of the gate. I already said I would not. I might have to if I looked at everyone the same way you look at me. Obviously my explaining the same thing over and over to you is useless. Again, I don't appreciate the implication."
How am I calling you a liar because I expect you to confirm my water meets the requirments per YOUR OWN POLICY? Ooooooooh, I'm sposta to assume you won't cuz you've told me, man to man? Talk about rose colored glasses... I'm sorry, but I don't drop $400 on an order to a place with the flimsy defense of "But you said you wouldn't test that......." Please, to assume you, the BUSINESS man, won't pick and choose when to adhere to a policy is truly the height of stupidity... You will apply it if it helps your bottom line, just like anyone else...
If you have no intention of testing it, then it shouldn't be part of the policy... PERIOD..
You said it hasnt boosted business yet... Perhaps thats cuz I'm not the only one that reads the fine print ;)
But whatever, do what ya want, I'm happy to keep doing business with known quantities... Best of luck, to you and your customers...
btw:
http://www.petsolutions.com/SecurityBlanket.html
http://www.etropicals.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=116
That's a couple I have on my fave places, I'm gonna look for more when I get home... I know Marine Depot only does 5 days, but they don't impose any very specific restrictions, so it kinda balances out ;)
JustPhish
02-26-2003, 4:03 PM
Please, to assume you, the BUSINESS man, won't pick and choose when to adhere to a policy is truly the height of stupidity... You will apply it if it helps your bottom line, just like anyone else...
Well you know what they say what happens when you assume....just like you're doing now.
If you have no intention of testing it, then it shouldn't be part of the policy... PERIOD..
See, here's where there's the communication break down. I NEVER said I have no intentions of testing for calcium. Ever. What I said was that the calcium criteria is placed as a generalization. You threw a calcium/clean up crew example at me and I showed you how it does not apply. I then told you, I thought clearly, that what would the calcium have to do with the clean up crew, however, if a claim was made on an SPS then you can bet I'll test the calcium. I'll go quote it since you missed it the first time and are now putting words in my mouth.
Now, back to the common sense. If someone orders a clean up crew and says they had deaths and sends me back everything as needed, do you think I'm going to measure what the caclium was? Of course not. What does it matter what the calcium was? The chances are they were probably killed by ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites if not from something else that wanted them as dinner.
There...no misunderstandings now. I will test it when it's warranted so therefor it stays.
Now you told me every place out there has a 7 day stay alive guarantee. I knew this to be a huge eexaggeration, but you did show me one other place that did it that I was not aware of. A huge company who wouldn't feel the hit when a claim was made any more than they notice the penny they dropped at the quicky mart, but still, they offer one nonetheless.
I went to check it out. I'm curious as to how you believe my calcium criteria is out of line but their temperature one is not. I asked before. Can you tell me one place along the the country that isn't above 90 or below 40 at any time during the year? I think you'd be very hard pressed to do so. According to their warranty, you might have a month or two where you can order and collect on a claim for the entire year, of course this depends where you live in the country and what route your critters took to get there.
Now one of the other big places out there is marine depot and you even mention them to me. You've stated many times how you read the fine print as you put it. Have you actually read theirs?? Not only do they have a temp clause but they also have a calcium. Higher than mine to boot! And? Phosphate! And? Carbon dioxide! And? Alkalinity! And? Last but not least dissolved oxygen. You're trying to point out places with better guarantees because you think nsw levels of calcium are out of line and uncalled for?
You told me you can put aside the lack of a full 7 day guarantee from marine depot because they don't have as many restrictions as I do. They have more, but anyways, you can over look that, but you can't over look my calcium requirements because of all the other services I offer. OK. Looks to me as though instead of it being constructive criticsm you're just having fun trying to blow me apart. Funny, I seem to recall you having suggested seriously that I require a water sample BEFORE I allow someone to buy from me. You think having NSW calcium levels is too much, but your suggestion is more earth bound?
I'd like to kindly ask that the discussion stop unless it's actually constructive and not just all out bashing. I'm trying my best to keep everyones interests in mind here (yes including mine...I know I know shame on me!)
Satchmo
02-26-2003, 5:13 PM
This rediculous pissing match has been going on for weeks. It's gone well beyond constructive criticism and you're both getting defensive.
Raven- I have a lot of respect for you, but you're being pedantic. If you don't like his policy, shop elsewhere.
JP- I'm a past and future customer and think your operation is top notch, but you're digging this deeper than it needs to go too. You tried, it's not what he's looking for. Let it go.
Can we put this to bed and move along?
JustPhish
02-26-2003, 6:27 PM
Good idea. Sorry if I've offended and I apologize to the original poster for hijacking his thread.
kpatrick
02-27-2003, 8:48 PM
Hey no problem JustPhish. I didnt know this was going to turn into a battle back and forth. I have never ordered fish online before and was just curious. I didnt know you were going to get this type of abuse from a couple people. My fears about buying online are still present but hopefully in the near future I will give in and buy my cleanup crew from you (even though I dont know what size the hermits will be) :)