question for the discus keepers

[april_tiffany]

I am not new to the aquarium hobby by any means, but this is my first time doing discus. I have researched extensively and I only have one remaining question. If I am keeping discus with other fish (I plan to have a school of cardinals and some cory cats), is it better to add the discus first, last, or at the same time? It is a 75 gallon planted tank, well established but with no current residents.

[PumaWard]

Get the discus first, and quarentine them in that tank for at least 3 weeks. Allow them to get established well. Then add your other fish. Be sure to quarentine them at least 4 weeks, as quarentine of all fish is vital in a discus tank.

HTH

[NatakuTseng]

You need to quarantine all of the fish before adding them. Do the discus first, then I would suggest the cories, and then finally the cardinals. All a month inbetween for adaquate Q time. Read over the article i have in my signature as well. If you have any questions give Puma or myself a PM and we will be happy to help, we both are very expirienced with keeping discus.

[april_tiffany]

Thanks for the advice! I've been reading, reading, reading, and more reading. I get back from a vacation the first week in august and am gonna go ahead and buy my discus then. Cross your fingers!

[NatakuTseng]

Who are you getting the discus from and how many?

[davesanchez]

Hi they’re congrats on taking the plunge with Discus. My suggestion would be to get tank bred Cardinals and Cory cats. Discus are not as difficult to keep as you may hear as long as you keep them clean. Meaning not to expose them to parasites they may get from other fish. My suggestion is to get tank bred cardinals and Cory Cats. Even with them you will still need to quarantine them but you stand a far better chance of success. Also get your Discus if you can from a reputable breeder. Especially a local one. Discus are not difficult to breed and if you do a search on the Internet you will find many , many breeders out there. There are bound to be a local source. If you cant then a reputable breeder is your next best choice. Pet shop Discus I do not recommend. Most people who fail with Discus do so because they began with sick fish to begin with.

Dave

[april_tiffany]

Dallas Discus is the only local breeder I could contact. I saw there was another breeder (exotic aquatics maybe?) but I couldn't find contact info online. I definitely want local grown since the stuff out of our faucet is practically gravel. I'm thinking 1/2 RO and 1/2 tap, but I would do more discussion w/ the breeder as well. Any other breeder recommendations for DFW breeder?

[PumaWard]

Water perameters aren't very important except when you want to breed. Don't worry about buying locally, but Dallas isn't a bad place. There are no local discus hatcheries or importers near me, I have to get everything shipped. It isn't that big of a deal. Excellent sources for discus are:

http://greatlakesdiscus.com
Http://discusfarm.us
http://sunrisetropicals.com
http://chuckbam.com/DragonFish/dragondiscus.htm
http://www.gulfcoastdiscus.com


Also, just out http://discusasahobby.com and go into the for sale section.

HTH

[dave76]

April, you might try pet village in duncanville. they dont have the widest selection of discus but I can attest to the fact that the ones they have are in good health and they have had them for a long time. The owner is down to earth and will work with you on prices. I got three bolivan rams from him last week. He had them marked as 11.99 apiece but I got all three for $25. They use a half. Its a great store if you want directions PM me.

[NatakuTseng]

Avoid any LFS discus unless you know exactly where they get them, I don't care how healthy they look. In the end there is a very high chance you will have problems with them. With Discus you pay for what you get, and you need to look long and hard into the reputation of the places your getting them from and get good solid advice from people that keep the fish. If you really are serious about getting into discus visit http://www.discusasahobby.com and start asking questions. There are many breeders and importers that are constantly on the board to help. Aquaria central is not the place to be getting good info about discus. There are very few of us that know what there is to know about discus, and many people that think they know what they are talking about when they don't.

Keeping discus is not hard, but you need to have the ambition and desire to give them the things they do need.

Dave, your right Discus are not hard to breed. However what you failed to mention is that raising quality fish from egg to sellable fish is not an easy task. It takes a lot of time, effort, and extremely good knowledge of the fish, as well as the ability to get input from others who know the fish even better than you. Discus are a totally different animal when it comes to raising fry than 99% of the other cichlids out there.

As to the tank raised tank mates suggestion, you will not encounter anymore problems with wild caught cardinals or cories for that matter if you follow the correct Quarantine proceedures, which you should be doing no matter the source of the fish.

[davesanchez]

However what you failed to mention is that raising quality fish from egg to sellable fish is not an easy task. It takes a lot of time, effort, and extremely good knowledge of the fish, as well as the ability to get input from others who know the fish even better than you. Discus are a totally different animal when it comes to raising fry than 99% of the other cichlids out there.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you feel this way?


As to the tank raised tank mates suggestion, you will not encounter anymore problems with wild caught cardinals or cories for that matter if you follow the correct Quarantine proceedures, which you should be doing no matter the source of the fish.

That is completely false. I could tell you about several Angelfish hatchery’s that went out of business during the 80's when the Angelfish Plague hit. If you quarantine wild fish 90% you will be just fine. However I have a hatchery and I can’t afford to put my tank raised fish at risk. Such comments come form an ignorance of the biology of wild fish. I have dissected more wild fish from South America then I can count. No mater how long nor how good a quarantine protocol you use you never be sure you have eradicated all the parasites. Most times the fish immune system kicks in and they are strong and live with it only for it to reoccur when they get stressed again or better yet pass them on to their fry. This is why Knowledgeable breeders like my friend Jack Wattley and his partner Gabriel Artificially raise the Discus fry apart from the parents so you ensure Clean fish. Failing to see the importance of clean fish is a major over sight. This is a fundamental principal of experienced Discus Breeders. To recommend wild fish to go with Discus is inviting trouble. No Discus breeder I know would say such a thing. People do it all the time but you are playing Russian roulette. Knowledgeable breeders know the importance of keeping Discus clean. You can get plenty of tank raised fish why invite trouble. If you want to breed Discus I would keep them alone. The only fish I trust to put with Discus are other tank-raised fish raised in my own hatchery. These days you can get plenty of tank bred fish from other breeders this is by far the wise choice and well worth the extra effort. This is common knowledge, a search of the many Discus forums out there will quickly enlighten you to this fact.

[davesanchez]

April Tiffany ,
Of course you want to buy direct from the breeder. I got strated with discus when I was 15 this way. I went to his hatchery and I picked out my own healthy fish. I got solid advice from him and he was aphone call away when I needed him. He walked me through breeding my first pair and even bought my fry later on. I was hooked and it my love for Discus is with me to this day. My first Discus were German Turks Schimdt Focke strian. I then began with wild Discus and making crosses. It was awesome and the Local breeder was always there for me. Check out the local sources before you do anything else.

Dave

[PumaWard]

You will be hard pressed to find tank raised cardinals, and they'd probably cost a bundle.

Dave, I'm not saying that you are wrong, but you are the only source that I have heard this from. To the contrary, I've heard of dozens of experience discus keeps and breeders keeping cardinals and sterbai cories with their discus and have never mentioned anything bad about wildcaught fish. Further, in another post, you mentioned you have wild caught rams in with your discus... I guess I'm a bit confused???




IME, IMO, and from what I read: quarentine your fish, keep the discus healthy (proper conditions, etc), keep and eye on everything, have no problems. Discus are not as prone to disease as many think.

[Larissa]

davesanchez, i thought discus fry had to stay with parents at first to feed off of their mucus.

[NatakuTseng]

Keeping wild caught fish in with domesticly raised fish is anything but playing russian roulete. Do things properly and you will be perfectly fine.

As to Wattley and Gabe, well first Wattley was a pioneer in the discus field, but since that time, many more advances and better ways of raising discus have come along. I also have several very very good sources that tell me since Gabe bought the wattley name, and since then the fish quality has been going down hill, I have no reason at all to doubt the information I have been getting from these people. Yet you say Wattley and Gabe are "partners" and you know them so well after all, too bad your not correct about the business end of that. Artificially raising discus is stupid to begin with. They should all be parent raised because it teaches valuable skills to the young. Of course we could breed them this way enough so that they become like angels and are almost incapable of raising their own young. EVERY world class breeder will let the parents raise the fry. If you want to argue this point I suggest you get hold of guys like Roy Khoo, Wayne Ng, Andrew Soh, Kelvin Chiang, Ivan Seah, David Lim, Chai Koon Seng, the Stendker family, Cary Strong, and the list could go on and on.

As to your angel fish plauge, that was in the 80s, time to move on and learn about the new things we have learned since then. Using an example like that is like saying treating heart conditions in the 80s is done exacatly the same as it is today. It is VERY easy to clean out wild fish now. With so many treatment options out there now that work very effectively and a much better understanding of diseases and parasites, there is no real arguement for not keeping wild fish now. Quarintine wilds like you would anything else and run them through the same deworming proceedures you would any other new fish and you'll be fine. Potassium Permagnate, Dylox, Panacur, Parzi, and Metro are just a few things you can use to effectively clean out fish. Your suggestion that wild fish are unsafe is false and unfounded. If you need other people to contact about cleaning out wild fish and their success rate I can give you some names of people in the business of Wild discus or ones that were doing it successfully, Oliver at Below Water, Al the owner of Simplydiscus.com and wilddiscus.com, and finally (a man who has bred wild heckles) Alberto from aquatechnics. Captive raised fish are no less of a risk of being infected with diseases or parasites than those caught in the wild, you never trust that a fish is clean and healthy no matter the source, doing so is one of the most unintellegent things you could do. For example, I know a reputable and well know person in the business who bought fish from another well known source, those fish that came from that source were infected with cryptobia, very nasty parasite that is virtually impossible to get rid of, only control is possible. Yet, there were no wilds anywhere near those fish, all were domestically raised. Yet you contradict yourself by saying you kept wilds in with domestics...hmmmm and even did domestic wild crosses, I thought we shouldn't be keeping wilds with domestics though?

Ahhhh finally, why are raising quality discus so much harder than other cichlids. 1) Food, 2) water quality. You can raise discus much in the way you would other fry, but you won't end up with a high quality fish. They will not grow fast, they will not have a good body shape, they will not be top notch fish. First the food, like many fry, they need BBS as their first food, not uncommon, next comes what you should be feeding them to keep them growing, you can't buy this stuff either, or anything that would come close to the quality. 50-50% mix of Beef Heart and Shrimp. Multivitamin supplementation, Calcium and Vitamin D supplementation, Egg yolk, amino acids, spirulina, rotifers. So first, you have to make that food, and use it as a staple diet. Need to do that for other cichlid fry, don't think so, but let me go on. Next, is the feeding frequency, to maintain proper groth rates feeding should be done every 3hrs. 5-6 times daily, generally from 7am till midnight. Need to do that for other cichlid fry, nope. Next water quality, anything but the best is not enough. One 90-100% water change done daily is a bare minimum, better would be 2 or I know some breeders will do 3 100% water changes daily. The cleaner the water the quicker the growth, the better the fish will be as well as healthier. Again, not something you need to do for other cichlid fry, but is really nessecary for discus fry. Another factor to water quality is the need to clean filters daily, and wipe the glass on the tank down every day to remove any kind of algae or bacteria growing on the walls.

I know my information is correct and I can confirm it with numerous other people who are making a living selling discus. Much of your "information" is very incorrect from all I have learned. I suggest you pick up a book that just came out and take a new course on discus, its written by Andrew Soh and called "Discus the naked truth". Andrew is a grand champion breeder and divulges a lot of info in this book that is not common knowledge, though you probably would discount his expirience anyhow.

I still maintain that if you want good information about all that is discus, do not take the words of people on here, go to sites dedicated to those fish, http://www.discusasahobby.com is the best in my opinion I post frequently there and can say for a fact that the people that know these fish are there.

[april_tiffany]

I did not mean to start a war :) I appreciate the advice, and I've already checked out the discus specific sites. It's just that I was afraid to post there b/c I thought I'd be attacked for wanting to get into the hobby. Do you know what you're getting into? Do you know what you're doing? Are you prepared? Yes, yes, yes :) Even the discus experts had to start somewhere.
As to LFS...try working at one sometime. I worked at a large privately owned one for a couple years, and it is amazing to see how much effort is invested. No, I'm not saying it's like this everywhere...especially at the chain stores. But every now and then there is a treasure store where you find KNOWLEDGEABLE, HELPFUL, DEDICATED staff and owners with quality livestock. Now, I still probably wouldn't buy a discus there, based on what I've learned and read so far...but there are some everyday fish that I certainly wouldn't mind. I get my apistogrammas from a tiny store in the middle of nowhere b/c I have a great relationship with the owner: where he buys, how he keeps, and in return he is honest with me..."hey april, i just don't think this shipment is up to par...hold off a bit."
And in response to a previous question: I'm thinking 5-6 discus? Any comments?

[PumaWard]

5-6 discus would be good. Also, if you can, try to get 4''+ fish. They'll be more expensive, but worth it in my opinion. They're already grown out and typically do better in planted tanks.

Fish stores are fine to get common fish from, I always get cories and tetras from my LFS's :). Also, Daah ( http://discusasahobby.com ) is a newbie friendly site and will also help you get off on the right foot if you want to go there, at least they didn't harp on me for my mistakes when I started out with discus :).

hth

[NatakuTseng]

I've worked at a good LFS before, and know what goes on, but there are some things I wouldn't buy there at all. A friend owns the store so I get all the info about where stuff comes from and such. Most discus the LFS get are Grade B or C culls from mass breeders in Thailand. Thai breeders have been notorious in the last few years of having sick fish, and treating them with massive amounts of hormones. Those hormones will do three things, color young fish up tremendously, destroy internal organs, and cause infertillity. Wouldn't say this was a war, just trying to stop the spread of ignorance and misinformation to people new into the addiction. DAAH is the best discus forum in my opinion, we get so many new people there. If we attacked you for being new and doing something wrong, why would you want to stay in the hobby? People there will help you and give suggestions but won't belittle you because of something you did wrong. WE all have been there and made mistakes, just learn from them and take good solid advice.

[davesanchez]

Keeping wild caught fish in with domesticly raised fish is anything but playing russian roulete. Do things properly and you will be perfectly fine.

I guess you speak on topics you know nothing of. Have you heard of encapsulating metacercaerian worms? Guess what there is no cure and they lodge themselves in muscle tissue and all over the host. Not to mention countless Flagellates and intestinal worms. Oh did I forget to mention the countless internal worms that lay dormant on other wild fish such as cardinals only to infect Discus because they are host specific. Most quarantine methods will not deal with every single parasite found and unless you start using a large host of medications you can never guarantee you have eliminated them all. Saying it is perfectly fine is just ignorance.



too bad your not correct about the business end of that. Artificially raising discus is stupid to begin with

My God man. A statement like that comes from sheer ignorance. The reason you are able to enjoy healthy Discus today is because pioneers like Jack Wattley and others were able to artificially raise Discus and thus clean the babies up and produce healthy fish. Adult Discus will carry gill flukes and many other parasites but they remain dormant waiting for the fish to be stressed. Many, many fry will be lost unless we raise them artificially. It is what you have said that is just stupid. Oh one last thing. Raising Discus fry artificialy takes skill. One big reason why I am sure you do not do it. Go ask your buddies at the forums how to raise them apart from the parents? oh, ahh, ummm. Snapper head.


EVERY world class breeder will let the parents raise the fry. If you want to argue this point I suggest you get hold of guys like Roy Khoo, Wayne Ng, Andrew Soh, Kelvin Chiang, Ivan Seah, David Lim, Chai Koon Seng, the Stendker family, Cary Strong, and the list could go on and on.

You know absolutely nothing about genetics do you? You speak of Grand Champions? Have you been to Aquarama boy? Or to Interzoo? Let me tell you of Kitti Phanaitthi , Bing Seto, Jack Wattley, Bernd Degen, Dirk Shlingmen oh the list goes on and on. All of the true champions are champions because they understand genetics and the role-raising Discus artificially has to do with genetics. You have to raise as close to 100% of the fry as possible leaving it to the parents is stupid because they will eat some of the weaker ones that wouldn’t make or countless other reasons. If you’re a serious breeder and wanting to produce and fix new variations of Discus not to mention cross them back to wild discus you have to raise them artificially. To say anything else is stupid.


As to your angel fish plauge, that was in the 80s, time to move on and learn about the new things we have learned since then. Using an example like that is like saying treating heart conditions in the 80s is done exacatly the same as it is today


Man once again you show your sheer ignorance. What on earth do you speak of. The plague of the 80’s was a virus no medication we have today can do anything to stop it. Go the university of Florida website and look up Dr. Ruth Francis Floyd. She earned a Doctorate on her paper regarding the Virus that plagued many fish during the 80’s No information we have today can change that. There is no vaccine for this virus. So I guess we can guess who is stupid now.


hhhh finally, why are raising quality discus so much harder than other cichlids.......

Raising Discus is no more difficult than most other Cichlids. I have a flow through system top raise mine yes. I better explain that to you because you don’t seem to know much. A flow through is a constant flow of fresh water so the fish in essence receive a constant water change. But for the average hobbyist you do not have to raise them like this. I do because I am raising a great many Discus in vats and they eat allot and produce an enormous amount of organic waste that will quickly overload a system. For a hobbyist just raise fewer fish. A hobbyist at home could easily raise 50 fry from free swimming in a 5 gallon to start with water changes every couple days. Then cull those down to 25 or even 30 and raise them to quarter size in a 55 with water changes 2-3 times a week. It is not the number of water changes fool but the waste load. As a breeder I will have much more fish loaded up in tanks and vats so I need to do those daily plus water changes. All Cichlids require what you have said. The only reason you want to make Discus so hard to raise is because you have raised a few Discus and you want to make yourself more important. A point I will come back to here shortly.




next comes what you should be feeding them to keep them growing, you can't buy this stuff either, or anything that would come close to the quality. 50-50% mix of Beef Heart and Shrimp

Beefheart! You are still using beefheart. Man you are stupid. Are you unaware of the hormones used in cattle that have been proven to cause problems in Discus? We are talking fertility, feducntity and sterility to name a few. Every intelligent Discus breeder in the world knows this. What planet are you on? Turkey hearts, chicken hearts, chicken livers etc but never beefheart. Why I have wasted my time on answering you is beyond me.


Now you know why I came on so strong with this NatakuTseng guy. Every post speaks of how difficult Discus are, How only experts breed or raise Discus. Big deal man. I have bred Discus, probably before you thought of ever keeping a fish. Man you have bred a few Discus. Big deal the whole world has!, go look at www.aquabid.com or do a google search. I have been breeding fish for over 20 years( Discus 15) there are far more difficult fish then Discus dude. Get a grip on yourself just because you bred a few Discus. Not a big deal. I have a friend I have known for many years. He does weekly water changes, feeds a chicken liver shrimp mix to his Discus and has babies all over. He is no expert. He is retired and just enjoys his fish. He has some Discus I gave him over 10 years ago still going strong. He understocks his tanks and manages them well. You are a classic bookworm and Internet nerd. You have read allot of books, you read allot of the stuff on the forums but you lack real experience. Now do us all a favor tone it down. Discus are not for experts, I know you really, really want to be one but sorry not so hard. Now speak to me of Diapteron abacinum, many, many species of Tetras, many Plecos catfish etc. Then we can talk of hard or for experts. As it is you are just a blow hard. Oh Cardinal Tetras let me educate you but once more time little boy. Cardinal tetras are being produced commercially now. By many, many Breeders commercially now including myself. They are a bit more expensive but well worth the extra money. Contact your local petshop and ask for tank bred Cardinals. Oh not only do we have Tank Bred Cardinals but we have Gold Cardinals as well. Go blow your hot air somewhere else. Come back to me when you are worthy and have something you know about not something you read in some book or somewhere on the Internet.

[davesanchez]

First of all Puma I have no quarrel with you. I am making a point with that Natuku whatever guy because I feel he is a blow hard. I just wanted to answer your questions.


You will be hard pressed to find tank raised cardinals, and they'd probably cost a bundle.

Not at all. Tank bred Cardinals abound. There is even a Gold variation now as well. Prices are only slighlty higher. The two largest wholesalers in the country I know have them so contact your local Petshop and ask for them. Here is a picture of one of my Gold Cardinals.
http://img2.uploadimages.net/414748gold-neon.jpeg


I've heard of dozens of experience discus keeps and breeders keeping cardinals and sterbai cories with their discus and have never mentioned anything bad about wildcaught fish. Further, in another post, you mentioned you have wild caught rams in with your discus... I guess I'm a bit confused???

There is no confusion. The tank I spoke of was a show tank in my living room. It has all wild fish Including the Red spotted Peruvian Discus. ALL wild.
Yes you can keep wild fish with Discus. many people do. However given the fact we can get tank bred fish why chance it. For the common hobbyist just wanting a pretty tank this is fine. My point to natku was for serious breeders or experts like he tries to come off as it is foolishness for reasons already stated. In my hachtery there are no wild fish. When I cross to wild fish it is in a diffrent building and then I raise the fry away from the parents. In fact I reomove the eggs shortly after being laid.

Again puma no quarrel with you. But I needed to give this nataku person a reality check.

[davesanchez]

APril/Tiffany,

5-6 would be awesome. I would suggest at leats a 55 gallon or more. AT adult size you want 10 gallons per fish. Do lots of water changes. and all will be well. Sorry about the natuku guy. I just had a bone to pick with him. He has rubbed me and others on here the wrong way and I felt I had to give him a reality check. Nothing to do with you. Please feel free to post any questions you may have. We will be happy to help you. I am normaly a very nice guy. I would never attack anyone like that especialy if they were new. However this guy has been pretty arrogant so a humbling was in order. Good luck with your Discus.

[NatakuTseng]

Dave....you are a complete moron. Say hi to the wizard and wicked witch for me. I have friends in this business on a world class scale, I know what goes on, you don't, please though keep ranting on and on about what you may. I know exactly how to artificially raise discus, yet I don't, why because its stupid to do so. Yes I use beef, ummm just like everyone else seriously into discus. Keep living in the old school and remain in the dark ages.

[davesanchez]

Ignorance is bliss. Once again you fail to answer any of my points. You ignore them as I Ignore anything you say. I will say it again come to me when you go to Aquarama or Interzoo. Discus are not for experts nor are you an expert. I could brag like you but I will not. I just am. I breed fish by the zillions. When you do come talk to me. I am the business not friends of mine. SO I speak from first hand experience not from what I have heard. Once again go read somemore books or go to your forums. I will go back to breeding my fish and my first hand knowledge. Am I still here talking to you. man what a waste of time. Now humble out. don't come accross like a know it all and you will be better off. Now go runaway and play with the little kids.

[NatakuTseng]

Ya know though Dave, if your such this "Discus guru" how about some pictures of those discus, your pairs, your fry etc. You seem to have done it all so lets see the quality, the size, the color, the shape. Funny, no discus listed for sale at your website either.....