Trolls [Archive] - Aquaria Central

daveedka

10-30-2005, 8:28 PM

Are you trolling for responses? :D :laugh: :joke:

Un-informed people are pretty common around here (that is the purpose) and it's very hard to learn a lot of information quickly. Once a basis and understanding is accomplished then all the pieces come together, but when everything is new everything is confusing and people can come accross as Dumb quite easily. I remember the first response I wrote to a post around here, it has been erased, but I'm sure most folks who read it thought I was an idiot (some probably still do :eek: )
We have a couple of Hard core trolls around here right now, It's usually easy to tell after a few days. People who continually cause trouble, or simply post response after response without contributing anything are trolls. other folks who come across wrong, or contribute poor information will quickly change their tune after a few days here and become a great part of the community. There are plenty of folks who come here and struggle, but the genuine ones are easy to seperate from the trolls.

The Trolls will come and go, Just don't let them get under your skin too much. That is after all exactly what they want.
Dave

ntt

10-30-2005, 9:04 PM

i agree with daveedka i dont know jack about fish im on my first tank trying to get info on my fish and im gettin called a troll witch is bull sshhiitt

SquirrelOsO

10-30-2005, 9:30 PM

im new here and i was called a troll today :confused:
someone called me a troll because i gave a description of my over stocked tank that i had like 10 years ago. i just said it as an example, but maybe i should watch what i say for now on since this board is a little touchy, and if its because of real trolls well then i can understand them being suspicous of any new comers

daveedka

10-30-2005, 9:35 PM

i agree with daveedka i dont know jack about fish im on my first tank trying to get info on my fish and im gettin called a troll witch is bull sshhiitt

Ahh there we go, lets throw in some profanity to really drive the point home.

ntt, just on a whim I went back and read your posts so far. You should not be suprised that folks think you are a troll. If you aren't you should probably work on proving it in a different manner than we've seen so far.
dave

ntt

10-30-2005, 9:56 PM

listen as i said in another post i didnt know about the size of the fish i thught they stayed like that i didnt do reseacher cause i thought i feed em filter the tank and get decor and thats that but i was wrong anyway i cant get ride of the fish

webbie

10-30-2005, 10:24 PM

So there is no possible way you can get rid of your fish? I think you could try selling them in the classifieds on this site or try selling them around where you live or something.

Intermision

10-30-2005, 10:24 PM

LittlePuff

10-30-2005, 11:05 PM

ntt,
I can barely understand your post. :huh:

Kim

daveedka

10-30-2005, 11:19 PM

I've noticed that on this board people are really quick to call people trolls, it's almost as if they're elitist. People also make such a big deal about the troll if they just ignored the problem it would go away.

Intermission, hang around awhile, we havent seen this much troll activity at one time since I've been here, and people are getting pretty wound up.

As a general rule things are a lot calmer and friendlier here at AC. and in due time things will be again. for new folks coming in it probably seems a bit rough right now, but you'll find very few elitists and a lot of friendly people here most of the time. With our present trolls ignoring doesn't seem to be effective, they tend to hunt you down and attack every post they can. If we ignored them completely the exchange of info would grind to a halt right now.
We have one with well over 400 posts in a very short time.

And in all honesty the verdict is still out (At least for me) on a couple of suspects.
Dave

Intermision

10-30-2005, 11:21 PM

And in all honesty the verdict is still out (At least for me) on a couple of suspects.
Dave
I hope i'm not on your hit...er...suspect list.

SquirrelOsO

10-31-2005, 8:23 AM

i think if everyone had their age posted next to their name it would help.
im guessing ntt is around 15 or so, which would explain the lingo
im twice that age so im not sure what my excuse is lol

nursie

10-31-2005, 8:52 AM

Age shouldn't matter. There are teenagers younger than you around that are very knowledgable about fish, and are able to make themselves understood quite well. This isn't AIM chat, you guys need to learn how to make yourselves understood so we can answer your questions and help you. I know you go to school..and have english class. Practice here. I do tend to ignore posts that have too much lingo in them because it makes my old brain too tired to figure it out. I know some...and typos are not a problem..I make them all the time myself.

Cursing is a sign of a small mind. Whoever you are..you are better than that.

People tend to consider someone a troll :troll: if:

1. they repeatedly ask the same question, even when they have been given answers.

2. post unintelligible posts with nonsense. Even if you have another language as a primary language, you do need to be able to make yourself understood in english. There are translation sites out there. use them.
If english is your primary language..save the AIM chat for AIM. If you're smart enough to navigate the net and find this site, you're smart enough to be able to speak coherently. Post coherently.

3. Cursing.

4. Once you post your problem, and get input from people, you get mad and tell them they are stupid and wrong. WHy did you come here in the first place? If you want to maintain incredibily high stocking levels in your tanks or maintain your fish in an inappropraite environment and not listen to advice, take your questions somewhere else. you are a :troll: Don't expect people that know what they are doing to agree with you if you are doing something wrong.

5. Post nonsense just to cause trouble. Getting in arguments with your alter ego that has a different sign on will get you called a troll every day :D .

6. Repeatedly give out bad advice to others...and get mad when others tell them they are wrong.

Any others want to add to this? Feel free.

daveedka

10-31-2005, 9:28 AM

I hope i'm not on your hit...er...suspect list.

I don't have a hit list (at least not for aquarium folks) and my suspect list is pretty short really. Additionally, It really doesn't matter what I think too much, It's up to others to deal with those issues right now. I do believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt most times. And tend to be slower to decide someone is actually a troll than a lot of folks. My invitation to ntt above was quite sincere. If ntt is not a troll then prove it to us. I'm all for keeping as many people around here as possible as long as they aren't hurting the purpose of this site. I usually read a lot of post whenever someone is suspect, and in general you can read several posts and tell if someone is here to learn and teach, or if they are here to confuse and encite problems.
Dave

ntt

10-31-2005, 10:24 AM

sorry i wasnt looking at the keys

Holly9937

10-31-2005, 10:28 AM

I always seem to miss the "excitement" if you can call it that :thud: !! I had NO idea about our friendly couple from Norway until a thread in GCC :rolleyes:

Emg

10-31-2005, 11:15 AM

Well.... I'm not a troll.....but, I have been known to play a reel or two for my trusty leprechaun friends.....but they're definitely NOT trolls....and would quickly make short work of those who would call them that.....their feet are deadly ! :D

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/character/character0051.gif http://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/stpatricsday/2.gif

NatakuTseng

10-31-2005, 12:43 PM

I'm sure there are many who would consider me a troll....ya'll should see my fancy bridge sometime....

sublime1184

10-31-2005, 1:12 PM

All we need is ntt gone and we should be ok...then later, we (mainly I) will be bored and wonder where all the trolls are :rolleyes: its a vicious cycle, and yes, I do need help :help:

daveedka

10-31-2005, 1:32 PM

I'm sure there are many who would consider me a troll....ya'll should see my fancy bridge sometime....

I doubt anyone thinks you are a troll NatakuTseng, ;)
dave

sumthin fishy

10-31-2005, 1:34 PM

I've noticed that on this board people are really quick to call people trolls, it's almost as if they're elitist. People also make such a big deal about the troll if they just ignored the problem it would go away.
Ignoring the problem causes more problems.
example.(this is just something I thought up, not a real conversation)

new thread #1
Intermishin': I have a 12" oscar in a 10 gallon tank, is this ok?
trollhappy101: Sure you can have 2 of em that size.

everyone else ignores mr. trollhappy101

New thread #2

newguy#6: Hi I'm new , I have a 10 gallon, what should I put into it?
Intermishin: How about 2 oscars, that would be ok.

You are now giving out trollish info without even knowing it, and harming your fish in the process.
Now, had everyone not ignored the troll in thread #1 it would have gone

IM: I have.....this ok?
TH101: Sure...... size.
Sumthin fishy: No mr. troll that is incorrect, I would politly disagree, that tank is too small for an oscar
Trollhappy101: No it's not!!! I've done it
Someone else:that's bad advice mr troll
Troll: *enter cuss word here*
Sumthin fishy: *exchange of angry words*
Moderator: Sumthin fishy watch it dude. Mr troll you have showed yourself and are now banned!!!!!!!

Now, if trollhappy101 was indeed here to learn, and not to troll

IM: I have.....this ok?
TH101: Sure...... size.
Sumthin fishy: No mr. troll that is incorrect, I would politly disagree, that tank is too small for an oscar
Trollhappy101: Could you explain why? I have done this in the past.
SF: why sure mr troll, you see yada yada stunted growth, blah blah desease etc.
TH101: why thank you SF I learned something today!!!

God I have too much time on my hands........
Of course, the above scenario is fictional, there will be disagreements on things that do not qualify as trollish, but you get the picture. It is very hard work for the good fishkeepers to combat the rediculousely bad advice, it is even more dificult to distinguish ignorance(the polite term meaning unknwing) from deliberate bad advice.

I say fight the good fight, Combat bad info and bad attitudes with good info and good attitudes. When you resort to namecalling and agression, the troll has won, and you are now one of them!!!!

If you suspect someone is a troll, politly correct the bad info, don't feed into the argument, and PM a moderator. Falsly accusing someone is hurtful and counter productive.

NatakuTseng

10-31-2005, 2:38 PM

thats what they all think Dave........ :devil:

I sure do miss Hans....he was fun

Emg

10-31-2005, 2:58 PM

Sumthin-Fishy.....excellent post....I quite agree ! :)

daveedka

10-31-2005, 3:51 PM

I sure do miss Hans....he was fun
I said that once and got slammed. As far as trolls go Hans was far less irritating than most and highly capable of being entertaining. I don't wish for his return by any stretch, but have often thought of him when a sarcatic response popped into my head.
dave

Dangerdoll

10-31-2005, 4:30 PM

(simply playing devils advocate here, on halloween ;))
it sounds to me that a lot of people juming the gun too quickly, and some are getting blamed for being a troll (not in this thread), more than usual.... Sometimes we have to remember, not everyone has the knowledge that some foldks on here have and whether they may be trying to give advice, yet incorrectly, correcting them teaches a lesson. Some come here without using the search tool, asking the same questions over..... after all, that's what this site is for.... to answer questions..... right?

ntt

10-31-2005, 4:33 PM

sublime i dont get wat ur problem is

daveedka

10-31-2005, 5:14 PM

sublime i dont get wat ur problem is

That in itself is the problem.

Well said Danger Doll. I think a lot of us are on edge right now, but this too shall pass.
Dave

Holly9937

10-31-2005, 5:25 PM

UH-OH, I didn't mean to start a battle in the thread :thud: !!! I realize I have way too much time on my hands lately and spend alot of it on here, but it amazes me that there are people with way too much time on there hands that spend it just trying to be obnoxious on a site like this. I really do almost feel bad for them (like the Norway folk (s?)!!)......There are much funner ways to entertain yourself on line than posting nonsense threads on a fish board ;)

pbrack

10-31-2005, 5:25 PM

Who came up with troll in the first place?
If ever I give out wrong info, please do correct me, but at least give me a shot before calling me a troll :)

P.S. This is the perfect opportunity to thank all those wo helped me in the past month! I don't know what I would've done for the more specific questions! I'm sure Wal-Mart would've answered them in a professional manner...right? :laugh:

FreddytheFish

10-31-2005, 5:31 PM

Yep. In fact, I think we should shut down this forum and go to Wal-mart!! :rolleyes: ;) ;) :D

Emg

10-31-2005, 5:41 PM

LOL........"NOT" !!! http://bestsmileys.com/doh/3.gif

ashdavid

10-31-2005, 5:45 PM

it sounds to me that a lot of people juming the gun too quickly

You better hope Lila dosen't see this spelling, other wise we are all in trouble!LOL :joke:

sumthin fishy

10-31-2005, 6:00 PM

sublime i dont get wat ur problem is
Ok should I be nice here?

This is advice given to help you out, if you find it offensive or it upsets you then I'm sorry. I will not sugar caot it, however.

1. Spelling, grammar, etc. A few mistakes are OK, abreviating long words/phrases(e.g. RUGF) fine, but the above should have been
"Sublime, I don't get what your problem is." Take the time to write clearly and people will take the time to answer sincerely.

2. I read another posts that said you are only 13. Is that true? If so, it is good to see someone getting into the hobby at a young age. Your age, however, does not release you from your responsibility. You need to take your fish back to a petstore. If your local store does not take them back, go to another one. If this involves having parrents/guardians drive you the next town over or whatever, then you need to find a way to reimburse them. Try, "mom, I need a ride to PetstoreX (call first to make sure they will take your fish) Saturday, I'll do the dishes after dinner for a week."

3. Do your research before you buy. You have made a mistake, and now you have the wonderful opportunity to learn from it. Stand up and be a better person. Mabey read up on some fish that will better suit your current aquarium before your trip to take back your current fish. It would be better if you could just get a nice big tank to house your current fish, but I don't think time and money are going to be on your, or your fishs' side on that one.
Rather, enjoy the few smaller(happier) fish you are hopefully going to get, and take the time to look into the needs of the fish you wish to have in the future.

4. Have a plan. Now you have found that beautiful, somethingfish, and you know it needs X gallons to be happy at it's adult size. You know it prefers to eat this type of food other than that type. You know it is going to need a good hiding space, etc. etc. et al. Now you can go buy the right tank, the right filter, heater if necissary, the right food(hope you were doing extra chores and saving your money while you were researching ;) ) Olny then(meaning after your wonderful new tank has "cycled" ) can you go out and get that nice new oscar, green terror, or-insert-favorite-fish-here.

If you choose not to take advice constantly, no one will give it to you anymore. When someone tells you you are overstocked, then you ask what other fish you can have, they will flame you. I really hope I have not discouraged you, but rather gave you some insight to help you in your fishkeeping. :hi:

NatakuTseng

10-31-2005, 6:16 PM

I'll second Sub's comment...

sumthin fishy

10-31-2005, 6:18 PM

I don't know why I have given so much to this thread, but I think it might have helped, and I enjoyed it.
Who came up with troll in the first place?
If ever I give out wrong info, please do correct me, but at least give me a shot before calling me a troll :)

I'm not sure who coined the phrase "trolls" first, but it is kind of a fun term to discribe the.....um........*scratch head*........trolls?

I read some of your posts and you do not qualify as a troll. When you didn't know the answers, but still wanted to help, you clearly stated you were no expert, or were not 100% sure. When corrected, you admitted you were wrong and learned from it(I hope).

Dangerdoll

10-31-2005, 6:23 PM

You better hope Lila dosen't see this spelling, other wise we are all in trouble!LOL :joke:
hehehehe, I've been in typo heaven.... where is that girl!! :D

daveedka

10-31-2005, 6:37 PM

UH-OH, I didn't mean to start a battle in the thread !!! I realize I have way too much time on my hands lately and spend alot of it on here, but it amazes me that there are people with way too much time on there hands that spend it just trying to be obnoxious on a site like this. I really do almost feel bad for them (like the Norway folk (s?)!!)......There are much funner ways to entertain yourself on line than posting nonsense threads on a fish board

I Thought this thread was going very well, in the event that ntt is not a troll he's getting some great advice from some kind people, which he can take to heart and use to his advantage. If he is a troll, it won't be hard to figure out after today.

Something I might add for newbies. Even if someone calls you a troll, just let it go and enjoy the boards. When I first came here I did a lot of things that I thought might get me banned, and figured out later that no one here wants that to happen. If you are sincere and are here to learn and teach you have nothing to fear. It's only the constant troublemakers and repeat offenders that get removed. we all have bad hair days, post incorrect information, or have someone lash out at us now and then. It all settles out if we know when to be curteous and recognize good information.

I read some of your posts and you do not qualify as a troll. When you didn't know the answers, but still wanted to help, you clearly stated you were no expert, or were not 100% sure. When corrected, you admitted you were wrong and learned from it
Therin lies the entire difference between a troll and someone who posted incorrect information.
dave

nursie

10-31-2005, 7:27 PM

Holly..you just brought up something that's been a problem and people took the chance to talk about it. Kinda like a public service :D

Might be an interesting stickey for people to refer to when troll discussions come up. As for coining the phrase troll...trolling, it's not unique to this board.

mishi8

10-31-2005, 9:15 PM

I'm not sure who coined the phrase "trolls" first, but it is kind of a fun term to discribe the.....um........*scratch head*........trolls?

Trolling is a fishing term, which also describes this type of annoying internet behaviour quite well:

troll
Pronunciation: 'trOl
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English
transitive senses
3 a : to fish for by trolling b : to fish by trolling in <troll lakes> c : to pull through the water in trolling <troll a lure>

intransitive senses
2 : to fish by trailing a lure or baited hook from a moving boat

In essence, a troll baits others to react. :troll:

ashdavid

10-31-2005, 9:22 PM

Trolling is a fishing term, which also describes this type of annoying internet behaviour quite well:

troll
Pronunciation: 'trOl
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English
transitive senses
3 a : to fish for by trolling b : to fish by trolling in <troll lakes> c : to pull through the water in trolling <troll a lure>

intransitive senses
2 : to fish by trailing a lure or baited hook from a moving boat

In essence, a troll baits others to react. :troll:

Can I interest you in a piece of cheeze.LOL :spam: Sorry about that it was just too inviting, I will be normal from now on.

Kasakato

10-31-2005, 9:24 PM

13 year old, bad spelling. This isn't about me right?

sublime1184

10-31-2005, 9:26 PM

no, its about jrd this time :rolleyes: LMAO kas

...I will be normal from now on.

possible? :D

mishi8

10-31-2005, 9:42 PM

Can I interest you in a piece of cheeze.LOL :spam: Sorry about that it was just too inviting, I will be normal from now on.

???The spam character is luring me with cheese? Hah, I'm too quick for that trap!

Now, the mention of spam is reminding me of the Monty Python spam skit & song (http://www.detritus.org/spam/skit.html)...great, now I'm going to have that song going through my head all night. :p:

SquirrelOsO

10-31-2005, 9:48 PM

ashdavid

10-31-2005, 9:58 PM

Impossible? :D
:laugh:

ashdavid

10-31-2005, 10:19 PM

i think that alot of people on boards, not just this one but most boards like to throw the word troll around to make themselves look better. but its funny because i notice that most people who point and call "troll" are actually very trollish themselves. i find a few here, no names to be mentioned, that seem to disagree with everything, that in itself could be labeled a troll. because when you disagree with someone elses post it kinda causes tension. if one person suggest something that you dont think is right well then you should keep it to yourself. some people like to play god here and go by the book a little too much. everyone here is out for the biggest tank only with the least amount of fish inhabitants, we all want whats best, but sometimes it just isnt pracical for us. dont we all want a 3,000 gallon tank? of course but who has the money and the space for that? ok we shouldnt buy fish then that will outgrow our tanks, well then the petshops shouldnt sell them either right? the average person buying fish at petco has an average tank at 20 gallons but no one can go up to them and say "oh no you cant buy that fish it gets way too big for you", its just not right, you can inform people here but let them buy what they want its their money. we all have our own opinions and we can post what we want, if its bad advice then so be it, the person reading the post will choose what they think is best or may not even listen at all. but all this bashing and troll calling is just stupid, and the person calling someone a troll is a TROLL themselves

The problem is that this site is one of the best around for getting general info on fishkeeping and a lot of the members want to keep it that way. When someone sees bad advice given it is usually corrected or that person is told otherwise. Now if this bad advise was one off , I don't think there would be a problem, but with a troll there is usually a pattern of bad advise or "trolling"(you can check other peoples posts by scrolling down under their user name). The problem with what you said about the the person reading the post and letting them choose what they think is best is fundamentaly flawed, the reason being is b/c the reader is looking for oppinions about a subject that he or she does not know about, so when a troll says "this is best" , how is that person supposed to distinguish which peice of advise is correct? There are many reasons why trolls need to be called out and the reason like I just explained is probably the main one. I hope you can understand that and not take it to heart if it happens to you, b/c if you are not a troll this will become apparent with time and posts. All I can suggest is being polite with people when there are disagreements and explain why you disagree, that way you are showing a basis for your argument. Cheers.

reiverix

10-31-2005, 10:27 PM

Lila

10-31-2005, 11:13 PM

There does seem to be a distortion between a genuine troll and someone who is just being plain silly. To me, a troll is a person who deliberately baits others until the thread finally ends up in a bomb throwing match. Then the troll goes perhaps to another forum and starts all over again. I read this thread (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59728) in silent disbelief but I really don't think the poster qualifies as a troll. They were so determined to keep pirhana, no doubt to impress his friends, that every piece of advice was ignored. I was also stunned by the patience of everyone who responded.

Maybe the troll word does get thrown around loosely but nothing causes tempers to rocket more than bad info and ignoring sensible advice. It's kind of bizarre that keeping fish can cause so much passion among us.

Sorry, I don't agree with you. That is blatantly a troll. After someone posted a step-by-step of setting up a tank and caring for it, he asks for a list of step-by-step instructions. People really wasted their time. He kept mentioning the size of his tank. Kept 'adding fish' to it after others died. Continued to 'do' the opposite of what everyone said.

That thread screams troll.

Lila

wannabefishguru

10-31-2005, 11:23 PM

yup and i even suggested troll before i even posted that, well n e way i did the right thing and gave my 2 ce. . . well maybe 6 or 7 cents. i would have to agree with eveyong else, just treat trolls like a normal person and if they don't respond to your help let em be but check up on the thread once in a while to make sure the inaccurate advise is not going to harm other people or at least you might get a laugh at it, take your choice.

Kasakato

10-31-2005, 11:48 PM

Do we have to go through this ever 2-3 months?

reiverix

11-01-2005, 7:39 AM

Well no point arguing over the definition of a troll. That would make the trolls just shake their heads :eek:

Lila

11-01-2005, 7:42 AM

Well no point arguing over the definition of a troll. That would make the trolls just shake their heads :eek:

True. And agreed.

:)

Lila

SquirrelOsO

11-01-2005, 8:42 AM

im a bit confused with the right and wrong issues. i will tell you in an honest way how ive been keeping fish. ive been doing this for over 20 years way before the internet was around, my only sources were books and magazines im sure like most of you, and occasionally the chit chat with petstore owners.
i am guilty of over stocking my tanks, but from all the old books ive went through the general rule which applies to small fish only is with added filtration and air you can double even triple the basic rule of one inch per gallon. so this is what i have done, ive always double the amount. and quite honestly ive never seen a bad response from these fish. ive only had 2 fish that were sick my whole life and that was a chocolate cichlid and an oscar suffering with hith disease, the other tank mates were not affected.
in the several tanks ive had all different species, they lived out there lives until they either died of old age or i had to give them away because some grew out of their tanks. my amonia and nitrates were always in check with amonia being 0. my fish only had ich once and that was my first tank when i was 9 years old. so sometimes i preach what is "reality" instead of what is in my opinion UNDER stocked. i do list the species adult size so the poster is aware and most people, at least me anyway, always go bigger, im tank obsessed. so when someone asks what fish they can get in a 20 gallon and i recommend a small pl*co thats not bad advice its practical advice. bad advice would say its ok to put an oscar in a fish bowl.
do you think fish like being in tanks? its cruel no? people are cruel to animals even if we try and make it the best and biggest tank possible and spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, im sure the fish would rather be swimming free in their natural waters that to be stuck in a glass prison.
what im getting at is everyone points there fingers saying wrong wrong and no you cant do that, when we are all wrong for keeping any living thing in our homes. im sure some of us eat fish right? oh and seaworld isnt cruel? keeping those orca's in a "pool". people abuse animals, even if it is unintenional, and we my friends are all guilty of this abuse

nursie

11-01-2005, 8:58 AM

People here are going by what is currently recognized practice.
Just because 15 years ago I was able to keep a pair of gouramis in a 10 gallon tank with a half dozen other fish and not have any get sick or die...oh but I don't have the tank now...doesn't mean that is the way it should be done for optimal fish growth and health.
Did I do that? Yep. Did I read up on aquariums and learn from newer books and this site? Yep.

What's the point in coming here and posting if you are not open to learning and willing to change? People here will not stand by and see bad advice given out. Fact of life. Deal with it. People who persist in giving out bad advice generally get labeled as trolls.

That's what makes this site the best, becasue you can get good advice here, not whatever schlock some idiot wants to tell you. I can get that at the pet store.

daveedka

11-01-2005, 9:24 AM

SquirrelOsO

Work with me here, in one sentence you suggest it's O.K. to put a pleco that will reach 18+ inches in a small tank, and then follow it by saying you aren't suggesting putting an Oscar in a fish bowl. There is no difference.

Coomon pleco's get big, it doesn't matter if they get big next week or next decade they still get big and whoever owns them still has them to deal with.
Since it's pretty much understood that the pet stores are going to sell whatever people want to buy, then it's up to the individual to be responsible about the fish they keep. People come here and ask for advice because they want to be responsible informed hobbyists, if they didn''t care they wouldn't be here asking.

You also suggest that it's O.k. to keep heavily stocked tank since its already cruelty to keep fish in the first place.

If most of us believed it was cruel to keep fish in tanks we wouldn't do it. but it is cruel to house fish inadequately or provide them with poor conditions so we don't do that. I believe cruelty exists in the hobby, and everyone as to tolerate cruel moments because that is realty but I would suggest that if you truly believe it is cruel to keep fish in glass boxes, then you might want to find a different hobby. Cruelty is not a good hobby to have. But once again that is your choice, I just can't imagine being purposefully involved in something I thought was a cruel practice.

These are not and never were meant to be any type of personal attack. I for one have kept plenty of Oscars in 55g tanks with irredescent sharks and tiger shovelnose cats. But I did not know better at the time. When I learned how big these fish got I quit doing these things, and when others ask for suggestions on stocking I do not suggest things that I know won't work.

We are only asking that people not continue to defend or post bad advice after it has been pointed out as bad advice. There is a sticky explaining how poorly the inch per gallon rule actually applies, and how much trouble it may cause if you use it. there is additionally an article here that outlines a better (agreeably more complicated) method for determining stocking. under no circumstances would anyone with good experience reccomend more than and inch of fish per gallon. And with most fish the inch per gallon rule is so inadequate as to be laughable.

No one is trying to play God we are trying to keep people from making some of the same mistakes that we have made.

The last point is this. people have the right to do whatever they want at home, they can keep fish any way they want abusive or otherwise, they can overstock, they can underclean, they can be as responsible or irresponsible as they wish to be. When they come on these board and suggest practices that are irresponsible then they will be met with a lot of resistance. If they continue to defend their suggestion it will eventually be assumed that they aren't here to help others learn, and someone will probably label them a troll.

I hesitate to paste that label on anyone, and generally reserve my thoughts for me, If I think there is a problem I send a note to the mods and let them handle things. There have been plenty of people I don't like show up here and post things that made me cringe. In a lot of those cases those people proved to be very beneficial members of this community. There are people who I find to be quite irritating much of the time, but they are genuinly trying to help and they are beneficial. It's not about anyones opininion of someone else, it's about knowledge and understanding in the hobby, and the sharing of good information not bad information.
We want a lot of helpfull people here on the boards, the more knowledge and experience we all pool together the better the boards become. Your experience in fish keeping is quite valuable, and if you are willing to share that experience wonderful.
Dave

happychem

11-01-2005, 9:30 AM

The thing about these boards is people aren't here looking for opinions. They come here looking for knowledge. Someone whithout knowledge cannot choose which course of action is appropriate. They don't come here to weight options, they come here to learn the best information we can give them.

Someone spreading bad information is to be frowned upon. However, ignorance is not a sin, nor is it even a bad thing. We are none of us born knowing, we all have to learn. I am never displeased at someone who knows nothing asking question about what they don't understand. I'm never upset with someone who has a hard time understanding, because some concepts can be tricky. Nor am I upset at someone who has a hard time asking the right questions, because when you don't know the subject matter, it's tough to know what to ask.

On the flip side, I do get upset/annoyed with people who refuse to learn. That is a sin. Arguing with someone isn't bad, but arguing without presenting reliable facts is, as is getting angry, name calling. If you can't support your claims with science, basic principles, then don't make the claim.

Fishkeeping and aquaria are science, not politics. Why do you think that RTR is one of (if not the) most reliable sources of information? Why is Tom Barr perhaps the most knowledgeable planted tank person? They're scientists and they bring their knowledge of science to the hobby.

That doesn't mean that you need to be a scientist to keep fish. Daveedka - to name one - isn't a scientist (correct me if I'm wrong Dave), but the reason why he is such a reliable and trustworthy member of this site is because he takes a scientific approach to fishkeeping. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean that they're doing it correctly. For decades, mdeicine drilled holes in people and bled them if they were sick. Sometimes the people didn't die, does this mean that these treatments were correct? No. The same applies to aquaria and fish husbandry.

The most successful hobbyists (in any hobby) are those that strive to learn the fundamental principles that control what they do. People who just look at things macroscopically and adjust to bad things as they happen without understanding the why will never have the same level of success.

NatakuTseng

11-01-2005, 10:47 AM

The amount of time you have been in the hobby means nothing. Obviously you haven't learned to get beyond the overstocking and provide suitable stocking levels for your fish, yet you have been doing this for a while now. On the other hand, I know a person who has only been into fish for 3 years, those fish are discus, and he is one of the most respected members in the discus community that I know of.

Overstocking that grossly is only acceptable when a couple things are being done, the first is massive water changes very often to keep the water quality high, otherwise you will stunt your fish no bones about that, argue with me till your blue in the face about it. Second, you need to know the behaviors of the fish super well, and watch out for ANY aggression issues, while some fish overstocking dulls this, others it increases it. You also have to be sure all the fish are getting enough food, with over stocking this increases the competition and its extremely easy for a fish or two to not get enough food.

Also what I have found funny, is the majority of books, are a joke. Thankfully I was intellegent enough not to trust most of them, as the publishers don't seem to care of the authors know what they are talking about.

sumthin fishy

11-01-2005, 10:57 AM

......ok we shouldnt buy fish then that will outgrow our tanks, well then the petshops shouldnt sell them either right? the average person buying fish at petco has an average tank at 20 gallons but no one can go up to them and say "oh no you cant buy that fish it gets way too big for you", its just not right......
Just to add a bit to this(I hope you understand this is mature and rational discussion, not an attack at you, or notniceness). The petshops sell other things than fish, dogs for example. If you go buy a dog it is your reponsiblilty to feed them, to train them, take them for walks etc. The same applies to fish. I wish I could give credit to this quote but I forget whos sig it is: "If you are taking an animal into your care, you should CARE for it". Again it is not the petstores responsibility to make sure your pets are well cared for, it is your(and my, and all fishkeepers) responsibility. I know not all employees at petstores are knowledgable, but I do have a petsmart where the head of the fish dept. has said, "sorry, I can't sell you that fish. It will not be OK in your tank". Though not as good, but at least showing some sort of knowledge, I have heard another store tell someone:"We will not give you our guarentee if you plan on putting this oscar into a 10 gallon"
:dive:
I hope that helped give you a perspective on how a lot of us think, and that I did not sound rude in the process.

SquirrelOsO

11-01-2005, 11:14 AM

very well said, all of you.
i think its best if i dont reply to most posts because i see the way i keep fish may work for me but probably wont for someone else, and i do upgrade to larger tanks when i see a larger fish cramped
i did do massive water changes in these overstocked tanks.
some posts i did just post my opinion because that was the topic, i forget in detail but it was the "whats the best algae cleaner" post, and in my opinion it was the common pl*co. and i did state in my post that they get large and will have to be moved eventually, but people just pass my good point and went straight for the bad, thats when i get PO'd.
i will enjoy reading the posts but i will not participate any longer

nursie

11-01-2005, 12:27 PM

Squirrel...space helps..and use of the smilies....etc :D

Putting some white space in between some of your statements may help people see the difference between this is what you did and this is what you do.

I try to...my eye tends to skim over the body of a solid block of type and miss stuff.

reiverix

11-01-2005, 12:43 PM

Thing is though, it's all too easy to say 'ok I'll upgrade when the time comes'. But setting up a good tank for a pleco, say a 75g, is not cheap and takes up room. After a while the fish is big, possibly stunted, and pet shops are so stocked up with these that nobody wants it. I'm sure this is a typical scenario.

DeVitaf

11-01-2005, 3:56 PM

Good Troll Definition :) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

Personally, I have kept 3 oscars in a 10 gallon tank. They only grow to the size of the tank you keep them in.

http://kck.pathfinderscience.net/construction/troll.GIF

Is sarcasm trolling :P

LittlePuff

11-01-2005, 7:21 PM

reiverix,
On the same token, people who live in one bedroom apartments shouldn't get a St. Bernard.

Kim

Chill

11-01-2005, 8:58 PM

I think people here are on high troll alert and Dangerdoll is right in we sometimes jump the gun. I believe the psychological term is Norway Syndrome. I include myself in this and know of at least one person I presumed a troll - possibly (probably) prematurely. That person posted in her own forum that she was glad their site was back up because people on other sites were not very nice.

People will only learn if they can ask questions. Sometimes they ask dumb questions. Sometimes the answer contradicts their own experience or what they've been told elsewhere, making it hard to accept, and so they ask again. If people call you a troll or insinuate you are being cruel. You get a little hostile. Think about some of our reactions to PETA. Type on a screen lacks other cues and sometimes reads harsher than it was meant. Sometimes in our own zeal we are a little harsh.

I see people here telling new people don't be offended, have patience, presevere, and if your not really a troll you will be accepted. Seems a little backwards to me the people giving the advice, the people with the knowledge should have the patience. We've all made mistakes we've all been new to the hobby. Try to remember what that was like. Let he who is without sin cast the first live rock.

As for the real trolls I stick by my original comment if you don't feed them they will move on to greener pastures.

sumthin fishy

11-01-2005, 9:50 PM

Let he who is without sin cast the first live rock.

Ha ha ha, some humor in this thread was needed. :D And the other statements were very good.

reiverix

11-01-2005, 9:59 PM

reiverix,
On the same token, people who live in one bedroom apartments shouldn't get a St. Bernard.
What :eek: I have to sell my triceratops!

daveedka

11-01-2005, 10:35 PM

What I have to sell my triceratops!

Man your hall closet will never look the same if you do that!!!
Dave

125gJoe

11-02-2005, 3:45 AM

DeVitaf, thanks for posting the link.
I'll paste part of it...

"In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory messages on the internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt the discussion or to upset its participants. The word, or its derivative, "trolling", is also used to describe such messages or the act of posting them."

While some may say a good solution is to ignore the Troll, this may work, but when and if that fails, the membership of the Forum should be protected and the offensive Troll should be banned. I've seen the Moderators here having more than enough patience, even when directly being "put down" in front of the membership. The rudeness of the Troll should not be allowed to continue.

I think we all want to help others - politely, and at the same time, have fun doing so!