HELP! Court appearance for aquarium destruction [Archive]

zell

12-02-2005, 10:16 AM

OK... First let me say... my son pleads guilty! But....

A complant for $1300 was filed agains my son...
He stupidly put soap in an aquirium. Having had freshwater tanks I understand the ramifications...

But.....

The tank was partially "abandoned". The owner had left it in an apartment he had moved out of. There were NO FISH in the tank. The tank was already in bad shape. My son is a freind of the person who moved into the apartment. The owner of the tank was about to loose all rights to the tank because it had been left behind in the apartment. They claimed it was "stinking" and so my son stupidly put soap in the aquirium.

Some time later (days) when the owner came (the last day possible) to get it he saw it's condition and called the police. The sheriff came and handed my son a citation for $1300. It's either pay the $1300 or go to court.

Now.. the owner claims it was a saltwater tank. None of the people (including my son) have a clue if it was or not.

Please understand... He is at fault and I am willing to pay for the damage. But I also don't want to be taken advantage of. the owner will not negotiate. He will not provide a list of what was damaged....

So.. I don't know for sure what the tank was... I don't know what was damaged... I don't the value....

But.. If the tank had been left unattended with no fish for weeks... doesn't that show great neglect??? If it was a salt water tank, wouldn't the chemistry be all bad????

Understand... I want to pay FAIR value...

Advice please...

mogurnda

12-02-2005, 10:45 AM

Seems like the owner would have to provide documentation of the loss.

Even if there was nothing left alive, the equipment, live rock, substrate and whatnot could easily amount to $1300. The equipment and tank may not be permanently damaged, but who knows.

Is it all about fair market value, though? Since he essentially vandalized someone else's stuff (whether it was a stinking mess or not), is there a fine associated with that? What is the actual wording on the citation? Who gets the money?

zell

12-02-2005, 11:00 AM

Seems like the owner would have to provide documentation of the loss.

Even if there was nothing left alive, the equipment, live rock, substrate and whatnot could easily amount to $1300. Is it all about fair market value, though? Since he essentially vandalized someone else's stuff (whether it was a stinking mess or not), is there a fine associated with that? What is the actual wording on the citation? Who gets the money?

I agree completely. I am happy to make FAIR compensation. But the fact that the owner won't provide a listing, and the fact that the tank hadn't been attened to for weeks makes me think the owner is trying to leverage the situation.

I am happy to pay damages. But.. I am not happy to pay for living rock, etc. that was already in heavy stress or worse. It is my understanding that saltwater tanks must be tended to almost daily or else chemistry goes bad...

Complant (ticket) reads "Without authority injured the personl property belonging to "tom smith", said property being fish tank equipment of multiple items." (The dep sheriff never saw the tank.. the complaint was taken in the parking lot.)

I know participants of this forum will be on the owners side... Hey, I am too! I just don't want to be taken to the "cleaners" if the equiment, rock, etc was already devalued due to neglect.

My main question is: Wouldn't an abandened (for weeks) salt water tank already be having problems????

OrionGirl

12-02-2005, 11:04 AM

What kind of soap was it?

I agree that the equipment, tank could total $1300, but the tank, lighting, and equipment wouldn't really be damaged by most soaps--they'd require a good rinsing, but it sounds like that was needed anyway. If the rock and substrate were still viable, the soap would kill them--but that would be tough to prove, either way. Was the equipment running at the time?

zell

12-02-2005, 11:11 AM

What kind of soap was it?
Was the equipment running at the time?

It was dish soap... I understand that filters were on at the time. (my son wanted to see it "make bubbles"). Again.. wouldn't the chemistry already be shot?

OrionGirl

12-02-2005, 11:20 AM

It's hard to say. It sounds like a lot of water had evaporated, meaning the salinity would be sky high, and the bacteria probably dead. But, the rock would be easy to rinse off and put into a new setup, cycle, and be fine. Since the equipment was running, this means the water was at least moving, so stagnation would be a problem. With the addition of soap, the rock and sand would be toast--it's just too difficult to get dish soap completely out of the system.

I would ask for reciepts, as well as photos documenting what was in the tank. I have enough coral skeletons in my setups that I'd be able to claim thousands of dollars, but I got them as skeletons, which cost way less than living corals--especially since many of them skeletons were collected as storm debris, and free!

For what it's worth, while I can understand the owner being angry, I'm not completely on his side. IMO, if you want your tank, you don't leave it behind unattended for weeks on end.

mogurnda

12-02-2005, 11:22 AM

I am really not taking sides here. I don't know any of the parties or their motivations. Just trying to help out.

First, the owner might simply say the equipment was ruined by exposure to the detergent. May or may not be true, depending on what was put into the tank. That could certainly add up to $1300 pretty fast.

To answer your original question regarding the condition of the inhabitants, I would say that a SW aquarium does require regular attention in order for things to stay healthy, grow and thrive. However, it is entirely possible for live rock, some hardy invertebrates, and even some fish to survive serious neglect. The tank may be an ugly mass of algae, but it would probably still harbor life, and might have been nursed back to health given the chance.

For all I know, everything could have been dead before the soap went in, but it is not improbable that there was livestock that could have been saved.

Dangerdoll

12-02-2005, 11:36 AM

zell

12-02-2005, 11:37 AM

Just to clarify.. there were no fish in the tank...
Since the owner will not work with me.. (won't provide any info at all)
I have two choices:
1.) Plead guilty and pay the $1300 with NO knowlege at all on the equipment (condition, what it was, etc)
2.) Plead not guilty and state my "case" before a judge. I would assume that at that time the owner of the tank would have to supply some documtation...

All I'm asking is a fair accounting so I can make fair payment... frustrating...

reefrash

12-02-2005, 11:40 AM

If it was dish soap most likely all your dealing with is surfactants. Nothing a little rinse and some skimming (hello ions) can't take care of. It couldn't have hurt the equipment.... I smell a rat.

zell

12-02-2005, 11:41 AM

wait a minute. I don't get how someone can leave some stuff behind in an apartment while another tenant moves in, and is then the new tenant is accountable (or his friend) for the property left behind. Is this apartment a shared apartment?

Beats me... My son tells me the guy had "x" amount of days to get his tank. It was the one last thing he had left behind. It was not a shared apartment, the new tenant told my son that his time had run out to get the tank.. that's why the tank owner showed up.. he was about to lose it to "neglect".

Perhaps I need to talk to the apartment complex owner....

Intermision

12-02-2005, 11:46 AM

It seems to me that the owner is just trying to make a buck. Why would you go straight to the police without even trying to talk it over with your son.

Dangerdoll

12-02-2005, 11:49 AM

I think you should talk to the complex owner immediately. I've never heard of being able to keep things in your old apartment until you're ready.... and then before that time is up, allowing another tenant to move in. I mean if it was a locked room, maybe I can see it but in the apartment - that would never fly with me. In essence, this tank has been running on the electriciy of the new tenant. Not to be nit-picky but who pays for that??? Have the lease looked over. AND you need a list of things that were with the tank. It's a shame you weren't able to compile it before they came and got the tank.

Intermision

12-02-2005, 11:53 AM

Also if the cop never saw the tank then there is no "proof" that it ever had any damage, especialy if they moved it. I know that seems kinda shifty, but wat that guy did seems extremely shifty.

zell

12-02-2005, 12:18 PM

Yeah.. my wife and I talked about that... But the cops job is only to take the complaint. It is not up to him to determine of complant is valid or not. that's up to court. And there is Proof. My son knows he did it! He admits it. It's only the true value I'm questioning.

Dangerdoll

12-02-2005, 12:30 PM

Also, going to court, prepare yourself with a copy of the lease or something that specifies anything about the agreement of the last tenant being able to leave something in the apartment. OR something from the landlord saying it was ok and who would be liable if something went wrong. It might just be the landlord who is responsible regardless if your son did put the soap in the tank or not. I am just having a hard time agreeing that the fault lies in your son's hands when this is an item that was left behind while another tenant moves in, who was not knowledgable about the tank in the first place.

Also, another side note. You'll need to be careful with your wording on the guilty with an explanation. The courts in Jersey don't like that phrase and generally don't want to hear an excuse if you plead guilty. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. Not sure about your location and the toughness of the courts. Call the court a couple of days before the court date to say you're not sure how to plead but that you would like to at least state your case as the situation is not cut and dry.

My apologies for not helping with the true cost of the tank and it's properties within the tank but who can really say when no one knows whether it was really a salt or not. He should need to come up with some valid documents proving the cost of things in that tank if not at the very least a list.

FreddytheFish

12-02-2005, 5:40 PM

It seems to me that the owner was just trying to make money....

:confused:

Warmaster259

12-03-2005, 1:10 AM

Scam! The owner should of had his stuff out of there

TipStylez

12-03-2005, 3:45 AM

It seems to me that the owner is just trying to make a buck. Why would you go straight to the police without even trying to talk it over with your son.

Yeah, to me hes just picking on your son cause hes younger. I don't think your gonna be able to lose this fight, just say that there was no investigation on what was damage by official investigators, and get proof that the officers that wrote down the papers, did not take a look at it. And if you dont know what condition the tank was in, just talk to the APT maniger, i know he been in the room and taken a few looks at the tank and see if what he describes is a salt water tank with living HEALTHY fish/live rock in it, and it was in good condition after your son put the soap in it.

-Q

pbecot01

12-03-2005, 11:16 AM

1. It's not a criminal complaint. There is no "guilty" or "not guilty", or complaint to the police. If there is, then there is no $1300 dollar recompense. If it IS, then hire a lawyer.

2. In the most likely case, this guy would be suing your son for damages, which is not a criminal matter. He would have to prove both that your son was responsible, AND the amount of the damages. Since you admit your son was responsible, it's up to him to prove the amount of the damages. He MUST provide you with specifics of his complaint in advance so that you can investigate their truthfulness yourself.

3. Once you get the list of damages, take them around to fish stores and get your own version of costs. His list of damages should have the age of things, proof that any livestock was alive at the time of the incident, damages done to any equipment claimed... get a couple fish store owners to provide you with notarized letters about how the value of the stuff was $150 bucks.

Don't let your sense of fairness get you in trouble... nobody who actually cares about their pets leaves them with unknown people for "weeks". This guy just sees an opportunity to get paid.

FloridaBoy

12-03-2005, 11:55 AM

Oh brother, I could see this playing out on Peoples Court! I can hear that stupid music, lol... Actually small claims court might not be a bad idea. It's too small for an attorney to get involved IMO but a SCC judge would make him prove the damages and pbecot is correct, there needs to be some proof of damages here, it's certainly reasonable to request them at this point... but you need witnesses and I feel it's always best to try and sit down with the other person and come to an agreement before the courts get involved as this will lead to more time, lost wages, etc. The key is what is reasonable, and what was damaged beyond further use. Since you have not provided details of exactly what was in the tank it's impossible for a third party to provide value. If the tank was chock full of live rock then I would say the damage was real and you may have cost him considerable loss. If there was a custom artificial coral insert then maybe but that could likely be cleaned/reused. Coral skeletons may have absorbed the detergent to a degree that they could never be used. If it was only a freshwater tank with a few plastic plants, then he is taking advantage of the situation and there is no way I would shell out the money without proof of what was in there. Of course the tank is probably gone now, so that's where a SCC judge would listen to both sides. I do not feel the detergent would cause permanent damage to any of the basic equipment or tank, these can all be cleaned and reused.

Bosemani Fan

12-03-2005, 3:41 PM

Ok, here's my 2 cents, The only things he could have really lost in a FW tank is. Live plants, possibly some inverts and thats about it Filters, Powerheads, Heaters, tank, Decor could be rinsed and cleaned. If it was a SW tank, Then could have lost LR, Inverts, Live Substrate, again Skimmers, Powerheads, Filters Etc. could be rinsed. Now if it was a Reef tank, Well lets just say that could be expensive! It seems to me anyone who would neglect their tank that long, and the claim they want $1300.00 for the damage, Then they are just after a Buck. I would definatly DEMAND a list of the items in question that he claims is damaged. How big was the tank? If it was a SW and say a 55gal. Then it would have to be almost stuffed with LR to amount to $1300 you can figure LR costs about $5-6 per pound. I wouldn't think it would have been a huge tank considering it was in an apartment. Most apartments aren't build to withstand the weight of a Huge tank. so definatly go to court and let this guy prove the damage to the judge. and I would be prepaired with a List of general Tanks supplies and such and the costs.

Owens187

12-03-2005, 4:21 PM

screw that!! let him take you to court!! hopefully he will have to pay legal fees etc... so what if you lose.. its 1300 dollars either way right ? i dont see him winning though...if there was any life left in the tank... get a lawyer and go after him for animal neglect, cruelty etc!!!

Slappy*McFish

12-03-2005, 11:10 PM

If he had left the tank in my apt. he would have found it in the parking lot when he returned. Don't give him a dime. Let him take you to court and prove his case to the judge.

IceH2O

12-04-2005, 1:16 PM

I can't believe you guys are being so harsh towards the exoccupant...There could be very many reasons to why it would take an extended amount of time to move a tank..Maybe he couldn't find someone to help him carry it..maybe he was doing it slowly to make it easier..maybe he works 12 hrs a day like me..

Maybe this is whats wrong with America these days...Someone is always the victim,usually its the person being fined..

What about the fact that the kid did it to begin with? From what I read it was empty and running,most likely still cycled.If it was a 36 inch TV and the kid kicked the screen in would you be so quick to jump on the kids side?

You should ask the guy if your kid could work off the fine/or make him pay it all..None of the money should come from you.He needs to realize that there are consequences to actions,bad or good.

anonapersona

12-04-2005, 2:08 PM

How old is this kid??? 5 years old makes some sense, but any one old enough to have friends who move into apartments has to know you don't "make bubbles" in someone else's tank.

Was this kid drunk or on drugs, or just short a few marbles?

That said, anyone who leaves expensive equipment in an apartment after they leave is taking a big risk. I can imagine some circumstances that might be reasonable for that, a shared apartment, a sublet, extenuating circumstances that prevent moving the tank since there is no real home to move to, maybe a college student who lived in New Orleans and home is washed away, or off to a short term job but will be back soon to move the tank.

In any case, when you are at someone else's apartment, you don't go adding soap to a fish tank there. Anyone over the age of 5 needs to be held accountable. But, the owner will certainly have to prove the losses. IMO

Mahlhavoc

12-04-2005, 7:07 PM

There were NO FISH in the tank. The tank was already in bad shape. My son is a freind of the person who moved into the apartment. The owner of the tank was about to loose all rights to the tank because it had been left behind in the apartment. They claimed it was "stinking" and so my son stupidly put soap in the aquirium.

Bad shape meaning?

Ok if you saw the tank, did it have a wall of rock or a few rocks in it? And did they have some purple on them? Live rock = $4.00 per pound

Was the bottom covered in sand? White sand?

Was the tank covered with algae and were their lights on? Do you know what kind of lights they were?

The only things I can see you replacing is rock and sand, if there were no fish in it. I don't think the guy had an invert tank, nobody would leave an invert tank behind for any amount of time with any smarts, this is why I asked about his lighting. Find out where he purchased his equipment, what store, if he is an invert keeper he would *Most likely* have a reporte with the LFS owner, there you could get answers that could help.

If the guy has his tank packed with live rock, and it is 100 gallon, it shouldn't cost but about $400-$500 and maybe another $100-$200 for sand. If he had fish and they died over a few weeks, no inverts would live through this, again, *Most likely*. Most inverts require high water qualities.

This isn't an expensive setup IMO. If it was expensive and an invert tank he woulda had a sump, and by three weeks it would have, most likely, run out of water and not been moving much, sounds like powerheads were being used.

My guess is offer him $500, that should be reasonable for his loses on something he wasn't taking care of. That will cover new live rock and subtrate with base rock under the live. Probably more than he deserves guessing his live rock was fairly well totalled out and the beauty of it long gone so hes getting new for free and both sides should be happy.

Just my $0.02 :dive2:

ragc

12-04-2005, 10:34 PM

Must be a huge tank to be worth $1300 in dead live rock and sand! I'd fight it in court.

Dangerdoll

12-05-2005, 12:05 AM

The guy that put soap in the tank was responsible, fair enough. BUT the guy who left the tank in the first place should have been respoinsible as well. You don't leave that kind of equipment behind "ASSUMING" the next tenant is going to be as careful as you were or may have been. If you left the tank, regardless of the circumsstances, you should be held accountable. If the guy cared that much, he never would have left the tank in the first place.