africans with americans?

This is a topic that will attract a lot of attention. To put it bluntly no they do not mix due to very different paramaters between SA and the Rift Lakes. However there are exceptions, such as Kribs and Humpheads which are African Riverine and will be compatible with small medium americans such as Apistos, Keyholes, Acaras etc.

I'm sure there will be plenty more responses.

(this is SBee)

Hmmm well I've got africans and south americans together in my tank, not by choice however....and to say the least they are still alive.

Of course, the less aggressive (the south americans) are totally beaten and look horrible....their fins are frayed and their colors are poor as well.

So hmm yeah I guess you COULD mix the two but why would you want to do that, when you probably wouldn't get to see the fish at their best that way anyways?


Personally I think it's crazy that a pet store would sell the two varieties together....but I guess it happens all the time because that's how mine were originally purchased by their former owner.

Okay, in Zurlo's "Cichlids" (Barron's Press), he says that, even if water parameters are the same, Cichlids from radically different locales (different continents, Rift Lake vs. riverine Africa, etc.) have different behavioural signals and may not understand those of the other, geographically distinct, fish...which can result in a cichlid massacre. I would recommend against it unless you have already been forced into such a situation, and, even then, I would advise you to get another tank!

I don't buy the idea that you must keep fish from the same habitat. You can mix fish from any continents as long as they are compatible in size, temperament and water chemistry requirement.

Most SA require soft water and won't do well in alkaline African cichlid tanks. But I keep my African tanks in the low end of alkalinity (pH 7.4 and GH12) and have no problem mixing in a few hardy non-African species. I have a 5-year-old, 10-inch Geophagus surinemsis with my Africans, along with half a dozen of plecos and clown loaches. Other Geophagus I tried did not do well and most died from bloat.

CA are very different fish from SA. Most CA require alkaline water like African cichlids, but majority are too large and aggressive to be compatible with African cichlids. I do, however, keep a couple small and peaceful CA such as Nicaraquen and Thorichthy aureum in my African tanks and they mix well in term of temperament and water chemistry requirements.

There are pros on mixing fish. They provide variety and dither fish function to diffuse an all African tank aggression.

Not saying it can't be done, because I'm sure people do it. However, IMO it's just a bad idea for a serious aquariast to mix New and Old World cichlids because of:
- water requirements
- eventual size of fish
- body languages of different regions, which lead to deaths, torn fins and fish not lookiong up to par
- possible dietary concerns

Just my 2 cents................

Even fish from the same lake can have different dietary requirement, size and temperament difference and shouldn't be mixed for the same reasons. For example, Tropheus versus Lamprologus and Mbuna versus Haps in diet, Mbuna versus Peacocks in temperament, and Frontosa versus shell dwellers in size.

Difference in body lanquage does not lead to more aggression or death, rather, it leads to greater peace of coexistence. Cichlids are more intolerant of interspecies or closely related species than species remotely related. This is one advantage of mixing species of different origin to reduce aggression.

Certainly, one should never attempt to mix Red Devel with dimulative Mbuna, but it is the utimate size difference, and not the level of aggression or water requirement that the two species should never be mixed. Red Devel is a CA and water requirement is similar to Mbuna and aggression level, oz for oz, is no difference from Mbuna.

Tiger15, I think that I have created a slight misunderstanding. I said cichlids from different habitats. I currently have a 10 USG tank with a Betta, four Corydoras, and one Otocinclus (he kills any others...typical Plec), so I know about the ability to mix hemispheres, continents, et cetera. However, I think that the behavioral cues among cichlids are enough to cause some pretty bad misunderstandings. I understand that there may be a lot of animosity between conspecifics and congeners among cichlids, and there are some exceptions to the rules which I have stated, and I also realize that keeping Tropheus with meat-eaters from Tanganyika is not a good idea due to the increased possibility of bloat, but I do not see most cichlids from different habitats comingling well.

It would also seem that if you wanted dithers/targets for an African tank, you could find them amongst the rainbowfish, catfish of Mochokidae and Bagridae, and larger African characoids.

I can guarantee you that a Dovii/Boulengerochromis microlepis tank would not work even though the two are compatible in size, temperament, and water conditions, because the two will not understand behavioral signals given by each other.

Again, I realize that mixed cichlid communities are possible, but I would not recommend them, and I think that maybe we should just agree to disagree on this issue.

Addressing the pH/hardness issue - no, you can't increase either without adding chemicals. Whether the chemicals are in a "natural" form - coral, or in an "artificial form" - commercial cichlid salt mixes, it makes no difference. You need to add cations of Ca and Mg amongst others, and anions principally of carbonate.