petition against the Flowerhorn

[thom336]

what is it? well, the Flowerhorn has been described by many leading cichlid experts as "a manufactured cichlid monster". This fish, being a hybrid of two or more cichlids (one of the parents being the Trimac 'cichlasoma trimaculatum') is is being produced in the Far East. The Flowerhorn grows about 14ins, and has the same violent temperment as the Trimac. They are on the market at very high prices, between £20 and £50 here in the UK, so that would be about $35 and $85 in the US. I am personally against the manufacture of new fish species by man, and as a result would like to start this petition...and hope that many of you will join me.

[O-man21]

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[lesley]

well, you better stop eating beef and most vegetables and fruits at your supermarket too...

sorry, don't mean to be confrontational, but what's the difference between creating a hybrid fish and hybridizing plants? Plants have been hybridized for centuries. Many domesticated animals are hybridized between closely related species too, not just varieties.

[O-man21]

These fish are living animals and the people who breed them release the bad ones into the local rivers and lakes. The Flowerhorn is destroying naturla populations.



I htink that's what people said.

[ChilDawg]

I've read that in another thread, too, O-Man, but Lesley is correct in saying that there is an overabundance of hybridization and this would exclude a lot of that which we eat. Plus, many feral populations are out there due to man's interference.

Thom336, I understand that the Flowerhorn does not occur naturally, and I disagree with the company's (supposed) decision to (allegedly) release these fish into the wild, but I will not sign a petition against its creation.

I would gladly sign one against the creation of Blood Parrots, but until I can sign that one, a relatively healthy hybrid with good quality of life is not something with which I will take issue.

Flame me if you like, but at least try to understand my view and consider it before you do so.

[RTR]

Does this mean that we should terminate all breeds of dogs, cattle, hybrid corn, goldfish, koi, etc.?

Unrealistic. Also unlikely.

[O-man21]

Yea, but those were bred for useful purposes, theflowerhorn is just for looks to sell.

[cdawson]

I sign
Apparently they are also having problems with pirahna getting into their rivers systems as well. Something tells me they need to be a little more responsible over there with things like that.

[ChilDawg]

Thom, one thing about your original post: even if that crazy, whacked-out company with the "Flowerhorn creation directions" calls it such, a Flowerhorn is NOT, repeat NOT, a species of fish. Neither is the Blood Parrot nor are the *******ized Africans which hobbyists all-too-often carry in their tank. Minor detail, but I thought that I would bring that point to your attention.

[OrionGirl]

Do you understand what a petition is? A random collection of 'signatures' (sorry folks, but a webname doesn't consititute a valid collection of peoples signatures) on a webpage for fish won't make any difference. At most, it's going to rile up some people who like flowerhorns. Petitions must represent a constituent portion of the population and or market, and be presented to those who have the money backing the industry. This thread doesn't cut it, and likely won't reach those in charge.

I'll let this continue, but people need to understand that you aren't voting, you aren't doing anything that will change the industry. Urging people not to buy them, and LFS not to sell them will be more effective than posting "I agree" on this page.

Not to be critical, but this kind of activity is silly. It's like standing in the corner of your room to protest being made to eat vegetables. Doesn't change anything, isn't seen by anyone who can change anything, just a good way of making yourself feel like you're 'doing something'. Feel good activism is a waste, IMO.

[Harry Tolen]

I agree with OrionGirl. It's like, way harsh, but there isn't much that an on-line "petition" will accomplish except to get some Flowerhorn fans in an uproar. That's the kind of pragmatism that comes from living in Wyoming, I guess, where you have to drive a day and a half just to meet your next door neighbor (and so you want to make sure you're not wasting anybody's time).

Discussing the environmental implications of Flowerhorns, or their genetic instability, or the danger that they will be crossed back to pure species with a concomittant degredation of the bloodline, are all valid topics for review, however.

But RTR, of all people, how can you be confusing the hybridization of species to make Flowerhorns with the process of line breeding that produces dogs, koi, fancy goldfish, etc. (I don't know enough about corn to include it here)? Genetically, hybridization and line breeding are not the same thing at all.

[thom336]

im afraid i have to disagree oriongirl...

the majority of Flowerhorn sales at the moment are being carried out on lack of knowledge that this fish is man made. This post informs people, and if less people buy the flowerhorn, then the industry will realise that there is little point in manufacturing such a thing.

I believe alot of you are getting confused. This is not natural hybridisation i am on about...two or more different species of fish were made to breed through use of artificial hormones. Of course, this Flowerhorn is not as deformed as the parrot cichlid was, but that doesnt make it any more right. We are abusing our knowledge and are creating whole new forms of life....

[TTman]

here's a CLUE: it's called SUPPLY & DEMAND. if there is a demand, it will be supplied. a pet store will NOT continually stock fish dat do NOT sell.... including pure breeds.
Here's another clue: FHs are NOT the 1st hybrid fish NOR will it be the last. why hate on only 1?
yet another clue: FHs AREN'T CHEAP!!! u FH haters need not panic, most of u won't/can't afford to buy them. your "pure" fish will be a LOT cheaper, I know.
last clue: GET A CLUE!!! a "petition" isn't gonna do SQUAT!!! only thing u can do is to NOT buy them (see previous clues). and lastly, who exactly r u gonna give the petition to??? the president??? no 1 gives a **** about a pet fish. pet stores could care less, they stock whatever sells.

[OrionGirl]

I assure you, thom336, I know very well what flowerhorns are. And if you spent any time reviewing the multitude of threads on this board, you'd find several threads discussing, defining and beating into the ground the entire concept and industry.You haven't brought up any new information that hasn't been previously posted.

Do not assume ignorance when someone doesn't agree.

My point is that a thread of this kind is not a petition. It will not change anything ITRW, and bringing it up just to cause problems is viewed in a poor light.

[thom336]

heres a clue: ive mentioned the price...
and w8...heres another clue: i mentioned parrot cichlids!!

[thom336]

heres summin else: good fish stores DO care

[RTR]

Harry - no, the circumstances are quite similar. There is and has been plenty of outcrossing in the development of all the creatures I named. Their genes are not "pure" - whatever that means.

Some outcrossing requires fairly simple manual assistance, some calls for fairy sophisticated laboratory processes - remember the glowing fish news a while back? But even with dogs, outcrosses are around curently. Those may or not disappear from the gene pool. Koi historically were outcrossed to bring in the large scale paterns. The concept is old, not new and shocking.

Yes, for emphasis I was arguing the extreme, but that is also a standard technique.

The point was really that the concept of a petition to change the practices of the world is unrealistic and unlikely to have meaningful or significant impact - but others have made the point better. It is full of sound and fury and signifies nothing.

[Skippy]

Well...

If we're going to boycott the FH's because they are a cross of two different varieties of fish we should DEFINITELY make some petition to outlaw injecting DYES into fish to make the unnatrual colors, right?

At least to my knowledge of them the FH's can breed. Tell that to the poor crosses that are inherently sterile.

Or how about weakening a strain of fish through line breeding because it happens to produce the exotic colorful finnage that people like in guppies?

Specifically line breeding to produce conditions that are a rarity in nature perhaps? (like that albino severum you have?)

I won't even go into Discus....

Virtually all fish in aquaria that are not wild caught are bred specifically for traits such as color , finnage, or other characteristics. Many of these would not occur in nature. If you want to be appauled by someone tinkering with natrures design be fair and be appauled by all of it please.

[thom336]

of course i am dead against the dying of fish...and hav you heard of these 'glow in the dark' zebra danios? apparently they glow when there is a problem with your water quality....
I personally do not have a problem with new strains of discus, and to a degree accept fancy guppies (make note of the 'to a degree'), as these are just fish bred, like you say, through line breeding and not under extreme conditions of crossing fish species and using artificial hormones. I agree that the finnage on guppies these days is becoming over-exagerated, and that there is absolutly no need for it. I was aiming what I was saying at the flowerhorn, as that was what was on my mind.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by O-man21
Yea, but those were bred for useful purposes, the flowerhorn is just for looks to sell.

uh, Koi were bred for looks.

Fancy golffish were bred for looks

Bettas were bred for looks

Green tiger barbs, red tiger barbs, albino tiger barbs, balloon mollies, dalmation mollies, lyretail mollies, fancy guppies, and so-on are bred for looks

most cat breeds were bred for looks

while the origin of most dog breeds was for a working purpose, the professional breeders in this country now breed them strictly for looks, and to conform with a set standard.

What about roses? They are often made by grafting one bloom onto another stem. That's definately for looks!
Heck, flowers in general - bred for looks.

Hey, even us humans - we breed ourselves for looks ;) :eek:

Gee, we'd have to change alot if we excluded things simply because they were bred for appearance.

I, personally, don't see the problem in simply creating a hybrid fish. What is it hurting? (this is assuming it is NOT released into the wild!!!) The place to question things is beyond the act of creation, in what is being created...
Now, the blood parrot, I am opposed to because from what I have heard they are deformed internally, and not able to carry on a normal life. In that case, one must question the morals of the breeders choosing to bring this fish into existence when they know it will not be able to lead a normal life. They are, in essence, dooming the fish to a life of misery simply by the act of creation.
OTOH, if the fish that is created IS able to lead a normal life, is free of internal deformities and problems, what's wrong? It will be able to go on and lead a happy, normal life. Let them be.

Oh, one other point - I've read that guppies, platys, and swordtails can all interbreed. That's definately a hybrid there. Would these species interbreed in the wild? Dunno, but it seems that having a limited number of potential partners, and being stuck in a relatively (compared to a stream) small space in the aquarium, that the possibility of their interbreeding is made much more likely - by the direct intervention of man!
Whoops, guess you can't keep them together anymore - is there a petition against that as well?

[thom336]

the last hybrid fish b4 the flowerhorn was the parrot cichlid...it was so deformed that its swimbladder was squashed against its other organs and it couldnt swim properly. based on my opinion that fish feel pain they must hav been in alot of pain. they also dies very young because of their deformities.

[thom336]

the last hybrid fish b4 the flowerhorn was the parrot cichlid...it was so deformed that its swimbladder was squashed against its other organs hence it couldnt swim properly. it also dies of a young age due to its deformities. based on my opinion that fish feel pain, they must hav been in alot of pain. that is what man creating new life is hurting.

[BluEyes]

if you read my post, I mentioned exactly what you just said, and did say that IN THAT INSTANCE that creating the hybrid would be wrong.

Do you have any similar such evidence for the Flowerhorn?



"We are abusing our knowledge and are creating whole new forms of life...."

How is that an abuse of our knowledge? Even creating a fish like the blood parrot, while certainly an abuse of an animal, is still not an abuse of knowledge.

[O-man21]

BluEyes. WHen you saidthat sword tails and platy and guppies interbreed in the same tank..yes they will and do, but do we breed those babies and sell them?
ANd yes, I was wrong, that koi..bettas..and most cats are bred for looks, but the dogs are stull bred to AKC and other (British..other standards) standards that were made when the dogs were used for working, so they are still,technically, bred to work and for how they are built.

[TTman]

care about what??? sure they may hear your spiel when u go thumping your chest & proclaiming your "gospel". but when I put MONEY down saying I want this & that fish, I'm sure they WILL order it-that is a good pet shop. dat's what wrong w/u zealots, u have a belief then u want the whole dam world to follow it. guess what? no one cares. so u don't like a certain fish, big hairy deal, don't buy it.

should u make FHs illegal? OK, what if I don't like beef? what if it's against my religion? should I have a right to force u to NOT ever eat beef again??? hmmmmmm.... daz how wars are started. if every1 would just follow & live their ideals & not force it down the throat of others, we'd all be living better.

oh BTW, hybrids existed LONG BEFORE blood parrots & FHs. swordtails, mollies, discus, devils, africans (to name a few). YES those hybrids have been in existence for a LONG time. the awesome coloration & pattern on some of those fish is a DIRECT result of hybridization. don't see u b*tching & moaning about those. guess what? some of those WILL HYBRIDIZE NATURALLY in the wild. OMG u better get on that magic carpet & stop all the hybridization madness!!!


Originally posted by thom336
heres summin else: good fish stores DO care

[Moreta]

Originally posted by TTman
care about what??? sure they may hear your spiel when u go thumping your chest & proclaiming your "gospel". but when I put MONEY down saying I want this & that fish, I'm sure they WILL order it-that is a good pet shop. dat's what wrong w/u zealots, u have a belief then u want the whole dam world to follow it. guess what? no one cares. so u don't like a certain fish, big hairy deal, don't buy it.



{{{{ Applause }}}}

Well said!
It's one thing to be all for species conservation through careful breeding, such as killifish keepers who go to great lengths to allow no hybridization because the fish they keep no longer exist in the wild and are extinct except in the aquarium and the species as a whole would suffer.

thom336, If you don't like them, don't buy 'em...don't spend your money where they are sold. That'll show 'em :rolleyes:

Tracy

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

very fish order i do i order 5 juvanuile flower hors and 2 adult i sell the aduld for $40 australian and the juvaniles for $10 australian and the people and get enough of them so im almost consinalty ordering more in to fill the needs of new and enthousiastic people to start up a new aquarium and theres nothung better in my eyes then to see a young boy or girl walk out of my shop with a smile and a new fish my fellow pet shop owner know what im talking about and if they dont they shouldnt be a shop owner

[jiggerpolebill]

another great thread based on your beliefs, thom. keep it up and maybe ill be able to hand over my award to you.

[thom336]

hold on....
i started a petition against the flowerhorn. it was meant to be friendly...informing people about this fish. i hadnt seen it mentioned here, so i thought i would. sorry if i offended anyone...but i offered people somewhere to put their mark against it...if you wernt against it, then you didnt put your vote. i think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick on this topic....

and TTman, many fish shops here in england are now refusing to order the flowerhorn no matter how much demanding and money you put to them...like me they feel it is morally wrong and refuse to sell the fish. i also do not ask you all to convert and follow what i say...i just ask that those of you who do feel the same to put your vote forward here.

Thank You.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

people are always using trial and error with selective breeding to make better working,show,hairer dogs and cats so its almost naturel to try and breed a new species of fish look at cave fish ive seen a cave fish breed with a female odessa barb and it turned out to be a realy nice brood of fish i know about the cave fish and how it breeds with other fish kinds but there hybrids and its a truly naturel thing to create hybrids so i give this a 10/10 for stipidity the petition of this size will do nothing if you got 10 times the amount they still wouldnt stop so i say GIVE UP complain about something else like the over cutting down of trees or water polution buy a boat and try and get a point accross thats my tip try and stop a big war boat from going to the gulf:o

[thom336]

i accept natural hybridisation....but when, in the wild, would a blind cave fish come across another barb? it wouldnt happen...and by putting them together to breed you are putting them under unnatural conditions...so that hybridisation is not natural.

im not here to complain...im just starting a friendly petition against the unnatural creation of hybrid fish....in particular the flowerhorn.

[Haggisman]

What a great thread to plug my forum.

THE Blood Parrot Forum (http://bloodparrot.aquariahobbyist.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi)

Parrot haters will be banned:p ,flowerhorn lovers welcome:D

*ducks*

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by O-man21
but the dogs are stull bred to AKC and other (British..other standards) standards that were made when the dogs were used for working, so they are still,technically, bred to work and for how they are built.

The AKC may want you to believe that the dogs are bred to some 'working' standard, but they are not. My g/f is big on dogs, and I've collected a few tidbits...
"well-bred" German shepherds must wear booties when outside the show rink. To get the perfect stance in the hind legs, they have bred the tendons in the hind legs so short that they cannot properly pick up their hind feet. The booties are to keep them from scraping the skin off the top of their hind feet as they walk
"well bred" Bulldogs can no longer give natural birth. They have bred them to have such a huge chest and such narrow waists that breeders mate a male and female, wait several days to see if the pregnancy took, and (if the female is pregnant) schedule a c-section.
These dogs are also front-heavy! They usually wear a backpack over their hips outside the show rink to keep the hind end down so they can walk normally...
"well bred" Dachshunds wear a chest pad outside the show rink - their chest rubs the ground when they walk and they would scrape their hide off otherwise.
many "well bred" small breed dogs have been bred to have very buggy eyes, to the extent that the breeders put a drop of glue at the outside corners of their eyelids to hold their eyes partly shut - and prevent their eyes popping out!
Susan Shepherd (big time multiple winner of the Iditarod race) was given a "well bred" Husky, and said it was one of the most worthless dogs she had ever seen - comletley useless for sled pulling.
Also, many "well bred" AKC dogs are prone to all kinds of internal problems, and many have mental "issues" (excessive dumbness to agression) Yes, there are some good kennels that DO produce good dogs - you will usually find thet those kennels compete not only in AKC events, but also in working or herding dog competitions where the dog must be able to do the job it was bred to do.

Anyways, back to the Flowerhorn...
Thom, you seem to be morally opposed to the FH simply on the basis that it is a hybrid fish created by man. What is wrong with that? Simply breeding/crossing to create a new species if not unethical. What would make it unethical would be if the fish created posessed internal/external deformities, or just general "problems" that would make the fish unhappy or unhealthy in life. (such as the BP, which I AM generally opposed to)
Since no one has mentioned any defornities or "probems" with the FH cichlid, I am assuming that they have no such problems, so I don't see where there is anything wrong with breeding them.

[ChilDawg]

BluEyes, man-made hybridizations of fish are not new species.

[thom336]

what is the point of the flowerhorn? it is no better looking than the Trimac, grows to the same size, has the same temperament, so why breed it? (notice i say no better lookin but that does not mean it is identical). not enough is known about the flowerhorn at present to establish if it is of good health and if it doesnt have any internal problems. but fish have been put through stress and intense projects involving hormones to produce it - for absolutly nothin except possibly personal achievement and a lot of cash. these fish are produced for commercialism and money - that is not how we should go about as fishkeepers. we should not be allowed to pick and choose the best bits of fish we want and bring them out in one new fish. it is not natural, it is not what was intended - and more importantly there is a world of thousands possibly millions of different fish species out there, alot of which we have yet to discover. there is the perfect fish for every1 (except those that dont like fish), and hence no need to create anything new. you just have to look.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by ChilDawg
BluEyes, man-made hybridizations of fish are not new species.

Not nessacarily, but they could be.
If the hybrid fish are able to breed and create offspring, if the hybrid, and it's offspring show a preference to mate with other hybrids (or are even unable to mate with the parent species), and those offspring can then mate, and so-on, and the qualities of the hybrid breed true, then where is it NOT a new species?

Certainly, it would be rather similar to the parent species, but Swordtails and Platys are very similar and they both seperate species...

[thom336]

different. swordtails and platy are naturally different fish...they are not man-made hybrids. similarity does not mean the same. however, platy and swordtail can breed together quite easily...why does nature make things so difficult?? and why does man have to make it even more so??

hybrids do not have a scientific name, they do not have an origin, they can often not be bred true, and they do not qualtify as a species.

bottom line is...its hybrid. there are set rules which mean it cannot qualify.

[Haggisman]

Actually almost all swordtail and platies in the aquarium trade today are hybrids between the two species.You would be hard pressed to find the wild forms anywhere.

[Julianna]

I have a goldendoodle (golden retriever poodle mix) We love her dearly. She also will benefit from what is known as "hybrid vigor" A phenomenon in which the first generation of hybrid between two pure bred species is considerably stronger. Thus, she will live much longer, have fewer genetic flaws such as hip dysplasia and won't shed. Because of hybridization, There are tomatos I can grow in much colder temperatures and without so much risk of disease and pests. Hybridization is not a bad thing. In fact, the opposite. We know that too much in breeding causes an unusual proponderance of bad traits, as in the russian royalty who had almost 100% incidence of hemophilia. As long as the breeding is done responsibly, I have no problem with a new fish. The fish certainly doesn't know the difference. Releasing them is another issue all together. Julianna

[FishmasteR2002]

Hmmm...each side has made great points, but which side do I take??? Neither side. I don't care how fish got to be the way it is, if I like it I will buy it. That is how most people today feel. Thom I understand that you do not want the fish to suffer from defects and deformaties, either do I. When I read earlier in this topic that Blood Parrots have swim bladder deformaties, I thought that it is wrong to take two beautiful fish and breed them to make a fish that will not survive or will be in pain. Most people think that fish don't feel pain because they can't express it like humans and other land animals(mammals and birds) can. If a dog is hurt then it will while. If a bird is hurt it will chirp and hiss. Fish can't do this so. I feel sorry for my fish when they are sick. When they die I also feel disappointed, both because they died and because I did something or didn't do something to cause them to die. There are people who think that this isn't bad, let them think that. You think it is bad and that's all that is important. It's great to want to inform people but do it a different way. Instead of trying to start a petition you should have linked a website with the info on it and let people decide for themselves where they stand on this topic.

[Clownloach458]

my signature ...Clownloach458!

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by TTman

yet another clue: FHs AREN'T CHEAP!!! u FH haters need not panic, most of u won't/can't afford to buy them. your "pure" fish will be a LOT cheaper, I know.


Actually, low quality flower korns are cheap. They've been sold at my LFS for $6. Buddy, I'm surprised I could afford him! And to make matters worse, they are often, very often, mislabeled as Trimaculatus. This is where the problem is. I can't go to my LFS and by a Trimac anymore because it's probably a hybrid. Now, in most of North America, Trimacs must be bought from a supplier of wild fish or a repuatable breeder.

And you DON'T need to be telling people what they can and can't afford. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that could afford a flower morn if they chose to (although why they would is beyond me). Also, many real fish are priced much higher than even the most overpriced flower gorn.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

if u do a bit more studying in your argument you will find that there are the blind cave fish and the fully eyed species which in the wild breed to make a hybrid also there are thousands of hybrid cichlids like the long finned oscar name a more graceful fish then that apart from the sff all those breeds of corydoras, the blue,gold rams the angel fish and the gouramis there are heaps and heaps of fish that are made of 2 or more species dont tell me that u dont like any of them.


also the food part of things like tomatos,potatos,corn,lettuse,carrots, then the meet you must be on a very very seclect diet there all hybrids and there of the top of my head. rest the peoples case

[kevinn2003]

These fish are in the wild also just very rare, Does it matter if they are breed by man??? alot of fish are made by mixing 2 types of fish , you might have owned one before :p

[ChilDawg]

Actually, the mix between the Blind Cave Fish and Mexican Tetra is not a hybrid, unless you consider mixing subspecies (and that may even be a stretch) to be hybridization. They are both Astyanax fasciatus morphs, possibly elevated to subspecific status, and will regularly interbreed, though it is unlikely that their populations will be mixed in the wild.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

it will breed with any tetra thats around its size and shape emperor tetra congo tetras altought not in there nateral habitat in a huge aquaria like a 1000 gallon etc they will have there own kind and other tetas to breed with and i bet u a cave fish and an other tetra will pair off think about it

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
to make matters worse, they are often, very often, mislabeled as Trimaculatus. This is where the problem is. I can't go to my LFS and by a Trimac anymore because it's probably a hybrid.

This is a problem with a good deal of "regular" wild species anyways! You can find mis-labeled fish in a great deal of LFS across the country. "let the buyer beware"

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by Julianna
I have a goldendoodle (golden retriever poodle mix) We love her dearly. She also will benefit from what is known as "hybrid vigor" A phenomenon in which the first generation of hybrid between two pure bred species is considerably stronger.

uh, one point here - a golden and a poodle are NOT seperate species, both are canis familiaris, just seperate breeds. The mix is just given that name because it is a easy way to referr to the mix - they usually do not breed true, so are not a seperate breed.
The reason that mixes usually fare better is because they have a broader gene pool. Many top show dogs have alot in common with royalty and rednecks - inbreeding! So, when you mix two inbred bloodlines, you end up with healthier genes.

Now, from what I've read on the FH, they DO seem to breed true, and are easy to breed (unlike BP what I've heard of BP's)

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by Dragon_Lord_Tia
it will breed with any tetra thats around its size and shape emperor tetra congo tetras altought not in there nateral habitat in a huge aquaria like a 1000 gallon etc they will have there own kind and other tetas to breed with and i bet u a cave fish and an other tetra will pair off think about it

I am thinking about it, and I cannot picture that being true. Even though they are blind (is that what you wanted me to think about???), they rely heavily on their senses of smell and touch, and I am guessing that these fish could distinguish between Mexican Tetra/Cave Fish and any other Tetra in the world. Plus, their eggs and sperm would probably not be compatible with that of species from other genera.

Also, you are talking about a large mixed community of tetras--how can you tell if these fish would be breeding with other tetras and whose eggs are being hatched?

Anyone have experience with Cave Fish breeding with other Tetras from differenet genera, and even different subfamilies (possibly soon-to-be-elevated-to-families)?

[Fisher Price]

My cousin got drunk and had a one night stand with a black man who then skipped town never to be seen again. The result was a mixed race baby being born.

Although this baby looks different we still love him and treat him the same as the other kids, but he gets a lot of stares and rude comments from strangers and racists because my cousin is blond hair and blue eyed and the baby looks very dark with black features.

Would you also start a petition to stop race mixing among humans just because some narrow minded bigots in society have a problem with it? I don't think so.

Point is: If someone wants to buy or create a fish that has different parents that is their right to do so. Grow up!

[thom336]

this petition is against, with subsequent good arguements for, the flowerhorn. i hav no idea how it got onto dogs (but it made things clear 2 understand for some - good reference idea) and have no idea how we got onto racism! but its gotta stop..ppl will end up gettin hurt otherwise.

"I don't care how fish got to be the way it is"
what sorta attutude is that FishmasteR2002? certainly not one i like to hear. you should care, not that im in any way tellin you what to do. what sort of fishkeeper doesnt care?

and blind cave fish do know exactly what is going on around them, whats where, whose who - because fish have a thing called a lateral line. and in the blind cave fish this is particularly sensitive. it would never mistake another fish for its own, and im sorry i missed that point b4.

whether flower horns breed true or not, and whether they are healthy or not, its the morailty im against. and so far i hav seen 2 sigs on here! add that 2 my own and its 3! so...ty to those who have used this thread as it was intended, and the rest of you for making it so interesting.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by thom336
whether flower horns breed true or not, and whether they are healthy or not, its the morailty im against.

But, aside from potentially unhealthy fish, where is the immorality?
I mean, by all accounts the FH turns out a regular, happy (well, maybe a bit grumpy ;) ) fish that is able to eat, live, and breed just fine. So, what's wrong with breeding them?

[thom336]

(read my posts....)

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by BluEyes


This is a problem with a good deal of "regular" wild species anyways! You can find mis-labeled fish in a great deal of LFS across the country. "let the buyer beware"

Yeah, duh, thats my point. Already nobody could go to their LFS and buy a Synspilum, Bifasciatus, Melanurus, Citrinellus, Labiatus, any Aulonocara, Pseudotropheus, Heros, or Astronotus species and really expect it to be what it is labled as. Now we have to worry about picking up a freaking Flower crap instead of a Trimac.

[Haggisman]

Thom, dont go around telling people what they should think.If they are for hybrids then fair enough, if they are not then fair enough.

Here is a good way of looking at it.

IF YOU DONT LIKE HYBRIDS THEN DONT BUY THEM!!

[ChilDawg]

Good call, haggisman. Let's stop this madness now.

[thom336]

i have not once told people what to think. i perfectly accept peoples opinions if they are pro hybrids. Rare cichlids...can i just highlight something you said. you said that you have to worry now about whether you are buying a flowerhorn instead of a trimac....well, that is one of the major problems of hybrids. if someone did buy a flowerhorn thinking it was a trimac, it could be back-crossed with other trimacs, and unknowingly sold the fry on as trimacs, and in the event the hybrid genes would now be entering the trimac gene pool when these fry where bred. so there are many dangers of hybrids beyond what is origionally presumed. however, as i said, i am not forcing a view onto anyone.

[Haggisman]

"I don't care how fish got to be the way it is"
what sorta attutude is that FishmasteR2002? certainly not one i like to hear. you should care, not that im in any way tellin you what to do. what sort of fishkeeper doesnt care?

Well maybe you souldnt be commenting on other peoples attitude then.
:rolleyes:

[TTman]

what town/city/state/country u in? if u r in malaysia, singapore, thailand, etc that would certainly be true. if daz the USA, I'd like to know where, cause it's a rarity. judging from what I've seen on the 'net & locally, I stand by my statement that most would not/could not dish out the $$$ for a FH. I've seen trimacs for $5 but FHs usually start at $50+. Petsmart did have them for $25, but even dat is no more (supply & demand at work here).

real fish are priced higher than the most priced FH??? the ONLY pet fishes I can think of that is priced higher then FHs are the RED asian arrowana & possibly some rare koi. tell me, what other aquarium fish (particularly cichlid) have u seen priced higher than FHs? I've seen FHs that sold for $1000-$100K+. I can NOT think of any other cichlid (including discus) that has sold for such & has been bought. prove me wrong. even if u did find 1 or 2 highly priced specimens, that would be a rarity & NOT commonplace as with the pricing of FHs.

I certainly would NOT pay any more then $100 for any normal cichlid. FHs only net those big $$$$ due to dazzling,stunning COLORATION. funny thing is the original parents are relatively drab looking...


Originally posted by Rare Cichlids


Actually, low quality flower korns are cheap. They've been sold at my LFS for $6. Buddy, I'm surprised I could afford him! And to make matters worse, they are often, very often, mislabeled as Trimaculatus. This is where the problem is. I can't go to my LFS and by a Trimac anymore because it's probably a hybrid. Now, in most of North America, Trimacs must be bought from a supplier of wild fish or a repuatable breeder.

And you DON'T need to be telling people what they can and can't afford. I'm sure there are plenty of people here that could afford a flower morn if they chose to (although why they would is beyond me). Also, many real fish are priced much higher than even the most overpriced flower gorn.

[BluEyes]

Point taken about hybrids re-entering the gene pool, but I still don't see where that would compell the breeders of the FH to stop breeding them.
They aren't doing this just to make ID'ing the fish hard, or to intentionally pollute the gene pool by hybridizing them and passing them off intentionally as Trimacs...
I think what I'd be more concerned about is pet shops trying to pass off a Trimac as a FH cichlid, considering the prices!


and blind cave fish do know exactly what is going on around them, whats where, whose who - because fish have a thing called a lateral line. and in the blind cave fish this is particularly sensitive. it would never mistake another fish for its own, and im sorry i missed that point b4.

How? the lat. line only tells them that there's something there. It does not sense color or specifics about the body that would allow the fish to know if it's next to another blind cave or not.
I would think there might be some kind of hormonal signals given off, but if other fish are sufficiently close in their signals. Well, nature will take over...


"(read my posts....)"

I did and I still miss it. I've made a few excerpts here (the review topic part isn't showing the whole thread right now)

"by putting them together to breed you are putting them under unnatural conditions [also referring to sword/platy hybrids]...so that hybridisation is not natural"

By the same logic, you could say that fishkeeping as a whole is not natural... I don't think we want to go there. We have to accept that fish from very diverse habitats will be plunked together in the aquarium. What results from that is up to nature.

"we should not be allowed to pick and choose the best bits of fish we want and bring them out in one new fish. it is not natural, it is not what was intended"

Really? We do that all the time. As a species we pick what we like the best about each other, and the next generation is more likely to have those attributes (ie: bigger boobs, taller guy - more likely to get busy)
Animals in nature do the same, except their motives are more often which attributes will make the potential mate a better provider, more likely to survive, etc...
So, picking the best attributes and breeding them together into a "new and improved" animal is perfectly natural.
As for "it is not what was intended" Intended by whom? Where are the laws of nature set out in ink? Be careful now, not everyone believes in a diety...

"but fish have been put through stress and intense projects involving hormones to produce it"

Even in articles I found against the FH, no-one mentioned this. I will accept that it MAY be true, as the original creators are supposedly not releasing much info about how they came to this hybrid...

"not enough is known about the flowerhorn at present to establish if it is of good health and if it doesnt have any internal problems."

From the accounts I researched online, it sounds like they have been around awhile and living in perfect health. There are no external signs of any deformity, and breeding is reported to be easy, so it seems they are sound fish.

"what is the point of the flowerhorn? it is no better looking than the Trimac, grows to the same size, has the same temperament, so why breed it?"

I think the question is still why NOT breed it. So, it isn't any better looking to you. Obviously some people (I think they are insane to spend many thousands on that fish) think it is better looking. It's all a matter of taste.
That's like saying "why repaint your bedroom from green to blue?" Intrinsically, blue is no better than green, but someone finds it to be subjectively better.
What about chosing between the many different species of tetras, or cories. You could easily select a dozen species of each that have the same body shape, size, and temperment but I guarantee you that different people would pick different ones as their "favorite" that's exactly the same point behind the FH - some people just find it better looking...
(me, personally, I think nuchual humps look ugly, and the fish itself looks...uh...diseased with that huge red splotch on white...)

"whether flower horns breed true or not, and whether they are healthy or not, its the morailty im against"

Yes, exactly - but what morality? The breeders were not out to harm anyone, and I see nothing wrong in creating a hybrid. Simply creating a hybrid is a neutral act, neither good nor bad. The morality lays in just what is created. Obviously it would be wrong to bring a fish into creation doomed to a life of pain, or to create an animal with the intention of damaging an ecosystem. But, in this case it seems to be a regular, healthy fish intended for the aquarium trade...

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
Actually, low quality flower korns are cheap. They've been sold at my LFS for $6. Buddy, I'm surprised I could afford him! And to make matters worse, they are often, very often, mislabeled as Trimaculatus. This is where the problem is. I can't go to my LFS and by a Trimac anymore because it's probably a hybrid.

wouldn't it be more likely, considering the going price for these fish, that the owner is passing off Trimacs with different coloration as FH's in an effort to increase sales?
If it were a REAL FH, it seems the shop would be paying more the for fish in the first place, and thus want more back in return for it.

[tricksterpup]

I am totally for the production of Flowerhorns. I find them rather tastey when broiled in butter.

[TTman]

u must be referring to butt-uglies. they're 2.99 a lb. a FH big enuff to eat would be quite costly... a gourmet meal.


Originally posted by tricksterpup
I am totally for the production of Flowerhorns. I find them rather tastey when broiled in butter.

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by TTman
what town/city/state/country u in? if u r in malaysia, singapore, thailand, etc that would certainly be true. if daz the USA, I'd like to know where, cause it's a rarity. judging from what I've seen on the 'net & locally, I stand by my statement that most would not/could not dish out the $$$ for a FH. I've seen trimacs for $5 but FHs usually start at $50+. Petsmart did have them for $25, but even dat is no more (supply & demand at work here).

Actually I am in the US. And its not a rarity. Its common place now, for Flower horns to be in LFS for under $10. See, your not paying attention to what I said. I didn't say there are malaysian imports at everybodies LFS. I said that there were "Low quality" flower horns. Which are probably the result of a "high quality" flower horn and Trimac. And agian, Stop telling people what they can and can't afford. Its not your place to do that.

real fish are priced higher than the most priced FH??? the ONLY pet fishes I can think of that is priced higher then FHs are the RED asian arrowana & possibly some rare koi. tell me, what other aquarium fish (particularly cichlid) have u seen priced higher than FHs? I've seen FHs that sold for $1000-$100K+. I can NOT think of any other cichlid (including discus) that has sold for such & has been bought. prove me wrong. even if u did find 1 or 2 highly priced specimens, that would be a rarity & NOT commonplace as with the pricing of FHs.

I certainly would NOT pay any more then $100 for any normal cichlid. FHs only net those big $$$$ due to dazzling,stunning COLORATION. funny thing is the original parents are relatively drab looking...


LOL, "due to dazzling ,stunning COLORATION" :) You know as well as I do that they only sell for that because they are "Lucky" LOL. That is the only reason. The parents look way better than the hybrid off-spring, BTW. I mean there are few Flower horns that look decent. But they still don't compare to a wild Trimaculatus or Citrinellus.

[BluEyes]

Hey, to each his own. Who knows what inspires people to pay such outrageous prices for them? The 'luck' thing probably does have alot to do with it. It's said the FH will become another feng-shui fish, like the Asian Aro, bringing it's owner balance and prosperity. If you believe in that sort of thing, that is...

Hey, considering all the fracas, has anybody popped the cash for DNA testing? I mean, the original breeders haven't said what it is actually crossed with, right? Who knows, maybe just an intensively bred trimac? It's possible...

[thom336]

in my origional post i told u it was a cross between a trimac and another, or another 2, cichlids. these are presumed to be from central america...or at least that is one theory. it is definately from trimac thou.

[BluEyes]

I know, but in all the research I did online, there was no-one who claimed to know for sure what the other fish were. There were lists of about a dozen fish that the trimac *might* have been crossed with, maybe multiples, maybe even the Blood Parrot!

Just saying, with such uncertainty, it *might* be just a heavily bred strain of Trimac... Maybe they captured a fish or two in the wild with great coloration, and have been working to perfect that strain? Has anyone done any gene tests?

[thom336]

one thing for certain is that it is a hybrid cross, and not a variation or mutation. it is bred out in the far east fish farms, as was the parrot cichlid. authorities cover up the origins of these hybrids to stop more being bred from them. of course, since you can successfully breed the flowerhorn, there isnt really much point. but you can see where they are coming from. also, the less people that know the origins, the more money can be made from those that do....so that sort of info doesnt get out easily.

[jiggerpolebill]

i dont think it is a hybrid. can you prove me wrong?
i dont think it is the result of a trimac and 2 other cichlids either.

i think its a miracle fish spawned from tetras, danios and grass carp. it was first seen high in the moutain tops of tibet where the monks revered(?) the coveted fish for its miraculous healing powers. it seems the monks were getting splinters in their feet from their wooden sandals, and they found that if they let the FH lick the bottoms of their feet, they would usually heal in 3 days.

the monks were so happy they shouted and sang with joy. this is the origin of 'gregorian chant'. sadly, the monks were corrupted by visiters from the west and their wicked north american ways. they all got addicted to crystal meth and began having it imported from countries like malaysia and the phillipines. when the monks could no longer support their habits, they paid the asia drug lords off with the miraculous Flower Horn.

the drug lords found that they could make more money with the fish than they could with drugs, so they began breeding them themselves, but have never been able to match the success of the monks. it could be that they use blue danios instead of zebra danios, but thats another topic of debate.

and thats how we came to where we are today with FH.

its all true. you dont have to believe me, im not gonna make you, but its true, and youll just have to accept that youre wrong eventually. just watch the fish if you dont believe me. youll see this entire story unfold in his eyes.

[TTman]

what state/city u in? I've been keeping an eye on their prices, so I would like to know. lols, most people would NOT spend the $$$ for a FH (unless they are as cheap as u claim), at least not the average aquarist. forgive me if u are LOADED. little timmy's dad sure isn't gonna dump $10+ into a fish when a feeder goldfish is 10 cents.

if u believe in dat good luck BS, then more power to you. a wild midas looks grey/white w/black striping. a wild trimac looks green/grey w/a red breast. I hardly call that colorful. beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder ;-)


Originally posted by Rare Cichlids

Actually I am in the US. And its not a rarity. Its common place now, for Flower horns to be in LFS for under $10. See, your not paying attention to what I said. I didn't say there are malaysian imports at everybodies LFS. I said that there were "Low quality" flower horns. Which are probably the result of a "high quality" flower horn and Trimac. And agian, Stop telling people what they can and can't afford. Its not your place to do that.

LOL, "due to dazzling ,stunning COLORATION" :) You know as well as I do that they only sell for that because they are "Lucky" LOL. That is the only reason. The parents look way better than the hybrid off-spring, BTW. I mean there are few Flower horns that look decent. But they still don't compare to a wild Trimaculatus or Citrinellus.

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by TTman
what state/city u in? I've been keeping an eye on their prices, so I would like to know. lols, most people would NOT spend the $$$ for a FH (unless they are as cheap as u claim), at least not the average aquarist. forgive me if u are LOADED. little timmy's dad sure isn't gonna dump $10+ into a fish when a feeder goldfish is 10 cents.

The place I bought the flower horn (which wasn't labled, and I assumed it was a trimac until I called back the next day and talked to the owner) was in Somerset Ky. And I have heard of them being this cheap all over the US and Canada. I never said I was LOADED. And no little Timmy's dad might not buy the $10 flower horn, but if you think that people don't ruitinely spend $10, $20, $40, $80, and even $150 on a fish they want, well your wrong. And you don't have to be LOADED, you just have to want the fish and be willing to spend the money. I don't know, I must be nuts to have bought my Striped Midas, when I could have got that awsome feeder goldfish for such a good price, LOL.

if you believe in dat good luck BS, then more power to you. a wild midas looks grey/white w/black striping. a wild trimac looks green/grey w/a red breast. I hardly call that colorful. beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder ;-)

I never once said I believed in flower horns being good luck. Your putting words in my mouth. All I said was that the reason they sold for so much is because the people that bought them think they are lucky. That is true and you know it. And BTW, I do think a Striped Midas is much nicer looking than a flower horn. But you must be forgetting about the Gold, Red, Orange and White colors that are also found in the wild. How do you think they got the name "Midas" and "Citrinellus"? And wild Trimacs are very often Bright Lime Green, with a Cherry Red Chest, and with large black blotches trimmed in white down its sides.

[jiggerpolebill]

there's a PetSmart near my house that sells them for around $17 or so.

they are lucky. each one is blessed by tibetan monks.

[Tiger15]

You can create your own designer Flowerhorn by crossing Trimac with any CA. If you want more red, cross with Blood Parrot or Red Devel. If you want spots, cross with Cuban cichlid or Dampsey. If you pattern, cross with Jaquar. All CAs are decendents from a single Cichlasoma line and will readily cross breed. All you need is a big tank and an egg grid divider to prevent the potential mates from killing one another, and additonal tanks to raise the fry. Prepare to cull 90 % because only a small percentage of the fry will grow into show specimen.

There is nothing unethical about creating hybrid. All live bearers in the trade are hybrid of some form and all show discus are hybrid of 2 to 3 species discus in the wild. The crop, fruit and vegetable we eat are mostly hybrid to improve desease resistant and vigor. The beef we eat come from domesticated hybrid cow and many farm raise food fish are hybrid species. Many ornamental plants we grow are hybrid to improve show quality. Rose growers are proud to show off their newest hybrid tea roses. Even the people of the only Superpower are hybrid of mulitple races and ethnic group.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by jiggerpolebill
i dont think it is a hybrid. can you prove me wrong?
i dont think it is the result of a trimac and 2 other cichlids either.

The rest of the post aside ( :rolleyes: ) this is exactly the point I was making, and I feel it is valid. The creators aren't sharing much, so who knows? Say it's a hybrid to boost sales?
Hey, you might not like it, but look, we (and many other people across the 'net) have given them a TON of free press here! People read this post, wonder what the fracas is about, then check the fish out for themselves. There's nothing really wrong with the fish, so you've just generated alot of intrest there...



one thing for certain is that it is a hybrid cross, and not a variation or mutation. it is bred out in the far east fish farms, as was the parrot cichlid. authorities cover up the origins of these hybrids to stop more being bred from them.

The authorities? what, like the government? I don't think they care.


the less people that know the origins, the more money can be made from those that do....so that sort of info doesnt get out easily.

But, like you said they can be bred easily, so what's the point?
Might be that they are keeping it as an "trade secret", planning to use a similar 'recepie' to make other, but different looking, hybrids in the future. By keeping the crosses a secret, they prevent someone else getting the jump on the next hybrid craze...
OR, (and I'm not saying I think this IS the case, but it is a definate possibility) the FH IS just a different color strain, not hybridized at all (or the result of a natural hybrid then caught by a collector) and they just say "hybrid" to gain attention...

How much would a gene test cost?
If all the CA's are descended from a common ancestor, how readily could different species be told apart anyways?

[thom336]

if they did call it a hybrid for commercial reasons, then their plans backfired. in a recent poll, 80% of british fishkeepers claimed they felt hybrid cichlids to be a threat to the hobby. 9% claimed that they didnt like them but didnt see them as a major threat, and 11% said that they didnt have a problem with hybrids. that is an overwelming statistic against them....but at the end of the day it is down to personal opinion. to keep them or not...its your tank, your hobby, your money and your decision at the end of the day.

[thom336]

blueyes...you would not only have to do a gene test on the flowerhorn, but every cichlid until you found a match. even then you wouldnt find a perfect match, as every fishes genes are different (except for cloned fish maybe...but i wont go into that).

[BluEyes]

except, that survay is among fishkeepers. I wonder what the general populous feels? and on different continents?

Also, you wouldn't have to find a perfect match. Different species have certain markers that can distinguish sample A as a human sample, and sample B as a Chimp... You would still have to do a few dozen tests at the least.

[Tiger15]

I bet that if you go to Asia and do a survey, you will get majority approval of hybrid cichlid. Flowerhorn, Blood Parrot and Red Oscar were Asian invention nd are highly priced there. The biggest spenders on fish are Asians. Look at those $10,000+ Koi, Flowerhorn and Red Aisan Arowana.

ACA is against cichlid hybrid and yet approves the many varieties of show discus which are product of decades old hybridization and line breeding.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by Tiger15
ACA is against cichlid hybrid and yet approves the many varieties of show discus which are product of decades old hybridization and line breeding.

LOL. No cichlid hybrids, but Discus hybrids are OK... Well, I guess they're special cichlids! :p

[thom336]

discus VARIATIONS (they r not hybrids in the true sence of the word) are a cross between different discus varities, as is the variatus platy, and is not a cross between 2 or more completely different spieces of fish. the difference is that the discus can naturally inter-breed, whereas the hybrids that are created from man crossing many different species of cichlids is a completely unnatural processing involving the use of hormones.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by Tiger15
All CAs are decendents from a single Cichlasoma line and will readily cross breed.


hybrids that are created from man crossing many different species of cichlids is a completely unnatural processing involving the use of hormones.

:confused: So, who's right?

I know the Blood Parrot needed hormones to breed, but I thought the hormones were applied to the previously-collected sperm and eggs of the parents...

[thom336]

Originally posted by jiggerpolebill
i dont think it is a hybrid. can you prove me wrong?
i dont think it is the result of a trimac and 2 other cichlids either.
i think its a miracle fish spawned from tetras, danios and grass carp.

you forgot this 'theory'...;)

[Tiger15]

Originally posted by thom336
discus VARIATIONS (they r not hybrids in the true sence of the word) are a cross between different discus varities, as is the variatus platy, and is not a cross between 2 or more completely different spieces of fish. the difference is that the discus can naturally inter-breed, whereas the hybrids that are created from man crossing many different species of cichlids is a completely unnatural processing involving the use of hormones.

Hickel Discus is a distinct species from other wild species Discus. Many live bearer hybrids originate from different species and genus. Swordtail, Variatus, Platy and Molly are distinct species and they have been hybridized so much that their genetic is hard to track.

All cichlid hybrids originate from close genetic line such as all Malawyan cichlids can cross breed because they are from a single Haplochromine line and all CA can cross breed becasue they are from a single Cichlasomine line. In a closed system, closely related cichlid will readily cross breed but distantly related cichlid will not. I don't think Flowerhorn is a hormone induced hybrid because many CAs have been known to hybridized readily. Convict, for example, has been known to cross breed with much larger CA including Dampsey, Mida, Jaquar and others. I have not yet heard successful cross breeding between CA and SA or between Malawyan or Tanganyikan cichlids.

[ChilDawg]

Actually, there are non-Cichlosomine CA Cichlids, and there are many non-Haplochromine Malawian Cichlids. Also, it is the Heckel Discus, which has been bred into a lot of the fancy Discs now available.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

coe on lets just agree to disagree this thread is the most popular and the most boring all u peope are doing is saying 1 thing then an other person comes in says another thing is STUPID,BORING and repedative people cant u see what ur doing.




a rap up of this thread:the flowerhorn and parrot cichlod are hybrids some are mutated and some are colourful fish thats it

[thom336]

Originally posted by Tiger15
In a closed system, closely related cichlid will readily cross breed but distantly related cichlid will not.

actually, if there is an opposite sex of its own species available, then it would much prefer to breed with them - which is one of the reasons it is important to keep pairs in cichlids communities. of course, if another member of its own species is not available, then it MAY go and breed with the opposite sex of another closely related cichlid species.

[Tiger15]

In a closed system, closely related species will cross breed even in the presence of right mates becaue the weaker pairs are unable to claim breeding territory. The dominant male will attempt to breed with every closely related female even if she is not his kind.

There are very few non-Haplochromine species in Lake Malawyi, mainly Tilapia and some are introduced species. Mbuna, peacock and Haplochromis are all Haplochomine by blood line. There are also very few non-Cichlasomine cichlids in CA. So Lake Malawyi and CA are similar in that majority of the cichlid fish in these waters share a common ancestrial line. On the other hand, Tanganykan and SA are similar in that cichlid fish there have diverse ancestrial bloodlines. Only closely related species can cross breed successfully. Distantly related fish do not produce fertile eggs. So the common belief that Blood Parrot is a cross between a CA Midas and SA Severum is an unproven rumor or lie. I am convinced that BP is just a Red Devel mutant similar to Ballon Molly or Blue Dampsey. I have yet witnessed successfull cross breeding of cichlids between continents or between African lakes.

[jiggerpolebill]

removed.

[cacti]

You could make up a real petition that -may- do some good if you really want to. You can ask people to send in their signatures to your address. You would need to write a letter to the fish farm that is creating these monsters. You can photocopy all the signatures on to this letter and mail it to the fish farm with your complaint. You would need a lot of signatures and you would need to mail it to the right place. This would be some work and take a while but if your serious about the petition it could be done.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by Dragon_Lord_Tia
coe on lets just agree to disagree this thread is the most popular and the most boring all u peope are doing is saying 1 thing then an other person comes in says another thing is STUPID,BORING and repedative people cant u see what ur doing.

a rap up of this thread:the flowerhorn and parrot cichlod are hybrids some are mutated and some are colourful fish thats it

Sorry, but I think that yours is the point we'll have to agree to disagree on. If you don't like this thread, simply don't click the link. I don't find it boring, rather quite the opposite.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by thom336
actually, if there is an opposite sex of its own species available, then it would much prefer to breed with them - which is one of the reasons it is important to keep pairs in cichlids communities. of course, if another member of its own species is not available, then it MAY go and breed with the opposite sex of another closely related cichlid species.

From: http://www.cichlidsickness.com/hybrid.html

With my own eyes I have seen a male Convict spawn with a female Salvini, and there was a male Salvini in the same tank!

women, go figure... ;)

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

bluEyes your second last post fell about 30 yards short if the target wth does that meen :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[BluEyes]

thom was maintaining that a cichlid would always spawn with one if its own species if given the chance, however my research on the FH cichlid turned up an article (the one in the link) where the author had witnesses just the opposite occuring - the quote is from the article I linked to.

as for the last comment, just a little wisecrack - that musta been one jealous salvini!

[thom336]

the questions is...was there a female convict in the tank? read over your source...how reliable is it? is it substanciated by evidence? it is an opinion...and is no more so than any of ours. i think really instead of attacking each other over this, we need to sit back, read through what has been written, think over what we think about hybrids, and draw our own conclusions. because i dont think this is going to be settled any other way.

blueyes, can i just say i wasnt in any way trying to put your source down, i am just using it as an example to put across what im saying...it looks like a great read, and i will read it later when i get a chance.

[jiggerpolebill]

QUOTE]...it looks like a great read, and i will read it later when i get a chance.[/QUOTE]

youre questioning the guys source and you didnt even read it?


it is an opinion...and is no more so than any of ours.

how do you know? if you didnt read it, how do you know its an opinion?


i think really instead of attacking each other over this, we need to sit back, read through what has been written, think over what we think about hybrids, and draw our own conclusions.

i'll read it if you will. at least he's providing some information for the point that he's trying to make.

[thom336]

sorry, i was in a bit of a rush when i came to writing that, and i hadnt a chance to read it properly - but i did skim over it, and got the jist of it. when i said i would read it later, i meant i would read it more fully later. i dont think this is the sort of topic that you can really draw up evidence for, as it would all just be opinions. i think we just have to all make up our minds. at the end of the day, there is really no 'right' or 'wrong' answer.

[breaker87]

im not too familiar with the flowerhorn, i honestly dont see what the hype is but sum do and thats cool....

so, the flowerhorn is a mix of fish from the same genus but different species, true??

then no one needs to worry about it escaping and destroying waterways because if the parents are from different species the offspring are 99% sterile and have next to no hope in hell of reproducing.

however if the parent fish are from the same species we have a problem because theres a good chance the fry are fertile and can reproduce.

breaker

[ewok]

Originally posted by jiggerpolebill
keep it up and maybe ill be able to hand over my award to you.

i think you should consider handing it over bill. 2 pages is as far as i got, god, what a waste of space. :mad:

someone lock this so it can't be ressurected again please? :)

[thom336]

God...where on earth do ppl dig these up from?

[ewok]

you started it. :p

i imagine someone was bored or looking for particular information. :confused:

[Rometiklan]

"This is the thread that never ends...it goes on and on, my friend. Some people started typing it, not knowing what it was, and they'll keep on typing it just because! This is the thread that never ends..."

[thom336]

In that case I feel proud to have started it :D :D lol

[OrionGirl]

Originally posted by ewok

someone lock this so it can't be ressurected again please? :)

Gladly.