fighting cichlids

[lokisbuddy]

i just read a forum about watching cichlids fight and i must say that some good points were raised, but i would like to know if it is wrong to like cichlids because of their aggression? because that is the number 1 reason i got them, the second being their beauty. though i do like their aggression and i will let their natural heirarchy take place i would much rather see them aggressive towards the prey i drop into their tank rather than each other. i would just like some honest oppinions as to whether it is wrong to be attracted to the aggressive nature of this fish?


p.s. i do not support animal cruelty.

[DHR]

I know a lot of people get cichlids because of their "aggressive" reputation. A lot of people buy pit bulls for the same reason. One thing to bear in mind is that for the fish this is a survival strategy -- need room to raise a family safely and with enough food. I personally think that a lot the fascination with "aggressive" fish (and dogs) is projection -- if my fish is tough, so am I. I like and keep cichlids, and I see nothing wrong with pit bulls. I just don't think we should be dependent on our fish's toughness for our own self-esteem. If you want to kick some ***, do it yourself, not by proxy.

[jadefoodog]

agressivness can be taken a few ways . i would never let my fish fight over teritiry or otherwize but,,,,, i love how agressive they are with live foods.

[reptileguy2727]

it is one thing to be intrigued by it, it is a whole other thing to enjoy animals harming eachother. in nature they would simply fight over a territory or mate, which probably does not usually end in death but rather in maybe a couple wounds, then the loser leaves the area. in a tank they still have the same instincts, except they cant leave the territory as they could in nature. in nature their territory may be many feet in diameter, but few tanks are more than a handfull of feet long, therefore making the entire tank one territory. if any aggression takes place in a tank, the individuals involved need to be separated, which means one needs to be moved to another tank. as far as being aggressive towards prey, the only live food that is safe is something you have bred yourself, anything else can very easily introduce parasites and diseases (not that home bred feeders are 100% safe, because they arent).

[Flowerhorn916]

Personally I just love cichlids because of their beauty and how much most of them change from juvinile to adult in appearance. I would like cichilds even more if they were not aggressive towards eachother.

[jadefoodog]

getting out of bed in the morning isnt 100% safe. useing a little common sense dont hurt either. if a feeder looks sick it probably is. but you wouldnt want to eat oatmeal every day for breakfast lunch and dinner what makes a fish any diffrent. theres few transferable illnesses that worms and crickets carry. demonizing the term live foods because feeder guppies and feeder goldfish are nasty creatures seems a bit overboard and paranoid to me.

i agree that if 2 fish fight they need to be seaperated though. you wouldnt want to be stuck in a prison cell with someone you just got ina fist fight with. imagine trying to sleep at night. its just creepy

[jadefoodog]

a small addition to that is , on average if a cichlids placed correctly in a good sized tank and not overcrowded most arent that agressive. they get bad names because of people who overstock thier tanks.

[Flowerhorn916]

Not so much true some fish ie. Red Devils, Festates, Flowerhorns, Umbees are not the friendliest fish IME they will attack most anything even if there are only 2 fish in the tank. But for the most cichlids it is true.


a small addition to that is , on average if a cichlids placed correctly in a good sized tank and not overcrowded most arent that agressive. they get bad names because of people who overstock thier tanks.

[jadefoodog]

yeah i was being general . its liek saying most tetras are friendly
yeah serpaes are mean as junkyard dogs.

[reptileguy2727]

fish dont really need the same variety in taste as we do, although variety is always good. and i dont think you would want someone responsbile for your life to look at your food and say, it looks good enough to me, its not showing any signs of disease, give it to him. it is just a lot safer to not feed any live food unless you grew it yourself, even then there is the risk you could pass somethign on to your fish. a disease or pathogen in a feeder fish may not affect that species of fish at all, but could be lethal to the predatory fish it is being fed to, so even if it is fine, it could be carrying something that will kill your fish, so why risk it?

[wesleydnunder]

As for liking the aggression of your fish; some surgeons like the cutting involved in surgery. Jadefoodog, I've actually seen less aggression in a crowded tank. Too many fish around to focus on any individual for long. I've also found that I can feed some of the aggression away. It means more maintenance for me but sometimes works. Full bellies gives them one less thing to fight about. On the subject of live food, live black worms have been known to carry parasites. I don't feed anything live unless I grow it myself.

Mark

[jadefoodog]

fish dont really need the same variety in taste as we do


how many years did you spend as a fish in order to come to that conclusion?

seems alot like saying "bettas dont really need space to move just put ehm in a 1.4 gallon bowl and they will be super" after all if the beta was to move around it could possibly sprain a fin.

creating a enviroment as natural as posible is out of the question. gotta have a bare bottom tank (gravel could hurt the fish or sand could choke its gills)

no ornaments either (fish could carelessly run into one and hurt itself)

well now that i look at it your way simply allowing animals to live in the wild should be considered animal cruelty . somebody call peta on everybody.

[jadefoodog]

As for liking the aggression of your fish; some surgeons like the cutting involved in surgery. Jadefoodog, I've actually seen less aggression in a crowded tank. Too many fish around to focus on any individual for long. I've also found that I can feed some of the aggression away. It means more maintenance for me but sometimes works. Full bellies gives them one less thing to fight about. On the subject of live food, live black worms have been known to carry parasites. I don't feed anything live unless I grow it myself.

Mark
so your saying in an overstocked tank theres too much stress for any reall agression to present itself? point well taken ill note that.

[lokisbuddy]

i love my cichlids and i would not want to see them harmed so after their dispute was done i would seperate them. but as far as only being violent in crowded tanks? mine are pretty violent and they are not crowded. is that unusual? also as far as our pets being an extension of our masculinity(or femininity) i dont honestly believe that is why i like them. maybe deep in my subconcious but i guess i am just amazed at the complexity of their emotions compared to that of say a guppy. my cichlids happen to love a variety of different foods. in fact if i feed em the same thing for more than 2 days they get sort of restless? thanks for your time everyone (and understanding of my bad punctuation)

[reptileguy2727]

how many years did you spend as a fish in order to come to that conclusion?

seems alot like saying "bettas dont really need space to move just put ehm in a 1.4 gallon bowl and they will be super" after all if the beta was to move around it could possibly sprain a fin.

creating a enviroment as natural as posible is out of the question. gotta have a bare bottom tank (gravel could hurt the fish or sand could choke its gills)

no ornaments either (fish could carelessly run into one and hurt itself)

well now that i look at it your way simply allowing animals to live in the wild should be considered animal cruelty . somebody call peta on everybody.

the only thing that made since to me in that was the first line. after thinking about it all day, yes, variety in food is a way to bring some change into their world. but there are many good foods out there, enough so that there is no need to expose aquarium fish to the risk from live food you did not breed yourself. who or what were those other comments a reply to?

[wesleydnunder]

Quote by jadefoodog "so your saying in an overstocked tank theres too much stress for any reall agression to present itself."
Read the post, dude. I didn't mention stress. Since it doesn't matter what I wrote, I guess just respond however to whatever. Remember, sarcasm in one so young is bad for the liver.

Mark

[jadefoodog]

nah im done with your closed minded fundamentalism. if you want to turn your aquariums into "fish prisons" go for it.

[wesleydnunder]

Sounds like you need a hug.

Mark

[jadefoodog]

Quote by jadefoodog "so your saying in an overstocked tank theres too much stress for any reall agression to present itself."
Read the post, dude. I didn't mention stress. Since it doesn't matter what I wrote, I guess just respond however to whatever. Remember, sarcasm in one so young is bad for the liver.

Mark


you cant seriously be advocating overstocking a cichlid tank.

my first post i said that overstocking is one cause of cichlid agression theres simply not enuff territory for them to have thier own.

so you say that overstocking negates agression because theres too many to focus on one fish (would seem kinda stressfull to me.) i dont agree i think theres more agression in an overstocked tank.

overstocking a peacfull fish tank causes the fish alot of stress so a tank of agressive fish i cant possibly see as being any less stressed. not to mention the waste and polution caused by the larger fish.( i would personally be fighting for territory right next to the filter)

i advocate live foods (not feeder fish) to invoke the fishes natural predatory instinct to hunt. there are no recorded ilnesses that are transferable from incects (a large cichlids natural foods) to fish. never heard of recorded parasites either. ive heard of no recorded illnesses from eathworms to fish either. although there may be some parasites that have been overlooked. but life is not without risk in itself, but risk makes life worth living (why else would they make amusement parks). essemtially if you feed the fish the same thing every day its kinda like forcing it to be a monk (and we all know we couldnt fill that role) so forcing it on something else in itself would be a form of abuse.

but all in all its your tank you do what you want. and ill do the same.

[wesleydnunder]

Let's define overstocking. I think you're reading things into what I'm writing that aren't there. Since this is going no where, have a nice day.

Mark

[reptileguy2727]

in this case risk does not make life worth living, it can end it. i dont think there are absolutely no pathogens or parasites that can pass from insects, worms, etc. to fish, and even if there are none, there are other risks such as chemicals (if you collect them from outside which shouldnt be done in the first place). in the end i know pellets and other prepared foods are safe and i i know there are enough of them to provide a varied diet. thtas what i would do and recommend, it is the safest thing to do, and when you are responsible for the animal's life, you should do everything you know of that is good for it, and nothing that you know may not be.

there are many different outcomes an overstocked tank can have. i do not think the liekly one is a bunch of fish in a clean and enjoyable tank that dont mind sharing space with eachother. diffusing the aggression i know can work in some cases, but i think of it like this: if each fish puts out x amount of aggression, and there are 20 other fish in the tank, then they can only put 1/20 of x out to each fish, but each fish is getting 1/20 x from each fish, still adding up to 1 x. (tell me what you guys think of that theory) the most likely outcome from my experience is the biggest/most aggressive fish takes charge and all the others suffer for it. and you still have an overstocked, dirty, hard to keep up with the maintenance tank. the most successful tanks are low stocked, where everyone gets their share of food, is low-stressed (as long as you remove bullies or the ones who get picked on), and they end up with the best colors and size.

[jadefoodog]

Let's define overstocking. I think you're reading things into what I'm writing that aren't there. Since this is going no where, have a nice day.

Mark


lol overstocked is kinda self exsplanatory, too much fish for too little tank.
over ... stock ... over reasonable stocking limits.

thats the context i origionally used it in , if you intended it any other way youshouldnt have quoted me or mentioned my name when you wre talking about your crowded tank theory

dont get me wrong im a little spirited when i write things i think, im not mad at you or dislike you. in fact if i wasent stuck at home today on my day off i probably wouldnt know or care that you exist. on the other hand im going to say what i think and exspress my opinions on anything i come up with. if your too fragile to handle this or get offended easily. i dunno what to say, its a hard world out there and you have to find it sooner or later.

[wesleydnunder]

reptileguy2727 go back and read this thread carefully, please. At no time did I advocate overstocking a tank. I simply wrote that I had witnessed different behavior in crowded conditions than that which jadefoodog observed. The crowded conditions I see are in tanks in my care at a lfs. Prior to receipt of a fish delivery a given tank may only contain a couple mixed mbuna and often a bully will pick on a certain fish. After the delivery is unloaded and said tank now contains twelve or thirteen or twenty the same bully has too many targets to focus on his previous victim. I'm not saying this always happens. I have witnessed it, though.

I don't keep fish in dirty, stressful conditions. Haven't since I killed my first goldfish. I take care of aquaria for a living and, while some of my methods aren't everyone's ( I'm sometimes the king of overkill ) I haven't killed a fish because of polluted conditions in 36 years of fishkeeping ( those goldfish were tricky that first couple years ). On my tanks I do more maintenance than is needed, by some folks' opinions. I fully understand successful, low stress tanks. I've had several and have a lovely, peaceful community 55 going right now. I've also kept a number of different cichlids over the years and have had some honest-to-joe WWF smackdowns goin' on in tanks which were stocked below "acceptable" densities. I think a lot of aggression in cichlids comes with the territory but fish are individuals and a combo that works today with a given tank may not work with an identical group next time.

Mark

[wesleydnunder]

"over reasonable stocking limits"...hmmm..."reasonable"... so we've finally found the authority on stocking densities. Man, has the fishkeeping hobby been waitin' a long time for you. Don't worry yourself about me being thin-skinned, young man. I stopped being bothered by whether or not someone likes me forty years ago. You think it's a hard world now? Wait until you're my age.

Mark

[reptileguy2727]

reptileguy2727 go back and read this thread carefully, please. At no time did I advocate overstocking a tank.
it wasnt a reply to you, it was just my thoughts on overstocking. and i have seen the same scenario in tanks as well, i just dont think it is safe to assume that is what will happen, as you have said. i work at a pet shop and we have a 90 gallon with african cichlids, as the population got down to about 4, aggression got worse. then we added about 7 more of the about the same size or better, and there is some quick chases across about a third of the tank, and some mouthing at eachother, but no damage.

[jagarundi]

I know a lot of people get cichlids because of their "aggressive" reputation. A lot of people buy pit bulls for the same reason. One thing to bear in mind is that for the fish this is a survival strategy -- need room to raise a family safely and with enough food. I personally think that a lot the fascination with "aggressive" fish (and dogs) is projection -- if my fish is tough, so am I. I like and keep cichlids, and I see nothing wrong with pit bulls. I just don't think we should be dependent on our fish's toughness for our own self-esteem. If you want to kick some ***, do it yourself, not by proxy.

At what point did he say that he LIKES to see his fish fight? :rant2: He stated that he would rather have them be aggressive with the food he feds them instead of each other. As for your OPINION about projection, that's all it is and like you-know-what's, everybody has one. I also like aggressive fish and I happen to own a Rottweiler as well. I like the breed. I has nothing to do with kicking someone's a$$. I'm more than capable of doing that myself. Let's stick to fish topics here and leave the dime store physcology theories at home. In response to the posters thread, you may try setting up more caves and hiding places to tone down the aggression. If you've done that and the fighting continues, try changing the tank around completely. That should also tone it down since it takes a few weeks for territory to be established.

[managuay86]

so it is automatically assumed that if u own aggressive fish u must be a weakling and are trying to make up for it by having aggressive fish? or aggressive dogs or whatever? wow, I guess likeing cichlids for being intellegent, parental, and owner responsive are all a thing of the past huh? ok I guess Im labeling myself as a coward becuz I hav red devils and managuense,............guy get a life ok, I find community fish kinda dull (NO OFFENSE TO OTHERS BUT IM ENTITLED TO MY OPINION) all they do is swim and eat, and if u over feed them they die, but most cichlids if they had enough they stop eating. and when mollies or guppies breed they eat their own young, thats pretty dumb. while most cichlids will defend their young to the end.

[Slappy*McFish]

My take on this whole thing is...
I respect cichlid aggression and find it interesting but I do not enjoy watching one fish brutalize another in the confines of an aquarium. In the wild, the attacked fish would simply swim away from the aggressor's territory. That isn't possible in an aquarium and ultimately stresses all fishes involved in the dispute...including the aggressor. I prefer peace in my tanks and will tolorate mild aggression between breeding pairs so as long as no fish is receiving any damage. A fish with torn, ragged fins that is cowering in a corner is unacceptable to me and that fish should be removed from the aquarium.
I keep cichlids mainly for their beauty, intelligence, and parental behavior. They certainly are very aware of their keeper's presence. I love their spunk just as long as no one gets hurt.