Berlin system for freshwater tank?

[Wedge]

I was wondering if the Berlin system (live rock & sand) works in a freshwater system. Any help?

Thanks in advance,

[O-man21]

no..the sand is fine..but the live rock is saltwater..I think...we may need someone else to help confirm it.

[Richer]

I know little about saltwater systems, but I believe the Berlin system essentially relies on a DSB (deep sand bed) and liverock for biofiltration.. no conventional filter (with media in it) is used.
Something like that can be done in freshwater systems. Rather than using a DSB and liverock, all you would need are plants and lighting. The plants would essentially be your biofiltration. You would just need a couple of powerheads for water movement. Keep in mind, if you go this way, you would need to stock quite lightly.

HTH
-Richer

[wetmanNY]

Freshwater substrates are as live as can be. That's why you don't want them too rich and too deep. As Richer says, plants are your biofilter. Every surface is "live" with biofilm.

Freshwater invertebrates aren't as colorful or large...

[thom336]

the actualy idea of the berlin system is for it to be inexpensive and natural...and the freshwater equivilent would, as said, be plants. vallis would probably be your best option...they purify water better than any other plant, are easy to grow and propogate, and look great. berlin systems these days do, in fact, also contain filtration. but the idea is to keep costs and technology to a minimum.

[Wedge]

Thank you for the various replies. However, I am still unsure of what/how to set up a berlin system for a freshwater tank. All the research I have done so far leads me to believe that no one really has any idea and my only bet is simple trial and error. Pull some rocks w/ moss out of a stream or pond, plant some Valis, let it settle for a few days, add some fish, and see what happens. I also understand the a biofilm will eventually cover everything (up to the level the nutrients will support bacteria, etc.) but how long does this take? What sort of bio-load can this accomodate?

Has anyone actually done this?

If not, I think I will best leave the experimenting for later and go with the regular wet/dry system.

Thanks,

Wedge

[Faramir]

If you're talking about filterless f/w aquaria, a n oft-referenced work on the subject is Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, by Diana Walstad.

Her method appears to be low stocking, circulation, and garden soil under the gravel. Debate no doubt rages over the value of her work, but there you go.

[thom336]

i do not know of a berlin system ever being practised for freshwater aquaria before. faramir is right where low stocking is concerned. you would have to carry out frequent water changes, and substrate i would reckon should be at least 2ins deep. this could be sand, laterite (or flurorite), peat or gravel - i think really it would be down to personal preferance and which you think would work best, as there is very little to base ideas for such a set up on.

[slipknottin]

The Berlin system relies on heavy protein skimming, intense lighting, and live rock.

No sand or gravel bed.

Berlin systems have been deemed ok for SW setups, but despite the low stocking there have always been problems with NO3 buildup in the tanks.

That led to the Monaco system with the deep sand beds, either with or without a plenum. These systems are the most common in the SW community, and rarely do you see any NO3 in the water.

Regardless, neither setup has a large biocapacity. They both rely on low stocking levels to remain effective.

In FW tanks, the equivelent of a berlin system would be a substrate less tank with plants or algae growing.

The Monaco system would rely on a plenum under a sand bed, and the plants or algae.



Regardless, a more effective FW system would be a large capacity filter such as a canister, a FBF, or a wet/dry. To deal with the NO3 accumulation you would need to have either a planted tank, or do large water changes (an automated water changing system is your best friend :p )


HTH

[RTR]

Ms. Waldstad does not approve of water changes at all. Nor of filters or artificial light. She does use circulation.

Plenums do not require plants to denitrify. But IMHO, a planted tank or refugium will be heathier and more stable than an unplanted one.

[Wedge]

No water changes!?! In Montana (arid highland plains & mountains) we can lose 2 gallons a day from a big tank to evaporation, so the accumulation of minerals and any chemicals (or anything, for that matter) can be pretty impressive. I can't imagine not changing the water at least once a month....

Is this different in more humid climates where evaporation is not such an issue?

Wedge

[slipknottin]

Didnt mean to imply that plenums wouldnt denitrify on their own.

I meant that plants will improve tank conditions, much like the protein skimmer and photosynthetic critters in reef tanks. (algae, corals, clams, etc.)


Wedge- if your worried about water contaminents, you might want to invest in an RO/DI unit, or at least a DI unit. They can dramatically improve your water. Ro itself removes around 95% of all water contaminents, and with the DI unit it will remove around 99%.


My 90 gallon tank evaporates around 4-5 gallons daily (during winter anyways). With the seasonal water changes that influence the NO3, silicate, copper, and phosphate levels, im not taking any chances. Nice little setup tapped directly into the cold water pipes. The Ro fills a 5 gallon bucket (conviently located on top of a floor drain :D) then automatically shuts off. When the water level in the tank drops, the float switch turns on the pump and the tank gets filled back up. Very convient setup. Im currently adding a 25 gallon bucket to the system. Fill it up with water and use it to do water changes.

[thom336]

I think what we need to do here is look at the Berlin system in principle, and apply these principles to the freshwater aquarium. At the recent instant ocean senimar 2002, speaker Dietrich Stuber was talking about the Berlin system. He said that the main aspects of the Berlin system are:
1) the tank
2) the lighting
3) the water motion
4) the filter
5) the skimmer
as we are looking at this from a freshwater point of view, we can cross the skimmer off as it wouldnt actually do anything for a freshwater tank.
As for the others....
The tank should be as large as possible so as to keep water chemistry as stable as possible.
Because the key to the Berlin system is nature, then plants should be incorporated and because of this there should be good lighting for the plants.
You may think that water motion is mainly a marine thing, but you have to see past the Berlin system as marine, and tyhink of it more as being 'the natural approach'. When looked upon from this perspective, you can see that what you have to do with water motion is reproduce what it would be like in nature. For example, a fast flowing river of stagnant pool, and replicate this with water movement in the aquarium.
Now, the filter is quite contary to what has been writtin so far in this thread. I thinm you would be causing alot of hassle for yourself by running a tank without one, and since it is in fact a component of the Berlin system, i would include one.

[slipknottin]

There is no filter on a Berlin system.

[thom336]

i must admit slipknottin...i didnt think there was either. but one thing i do know is that Dietrich Stuber knows a thing or two more about te Berlin system than i do.

[slipknottin]

Lee Eng was the "inventor" of the modern Berlin reef aquarium. He used nothing but liverock and and airstones.

Peter Wilkens is the most famous of the people behind the Berlin system. His tanks were setup with no wet/dry or undergravel filters, which were common at the time. His work has been expanded on by Alf Nilsen, Charles Delbeek, and Julian Sprung. None of which used mechanical filters.

Mr. Struber does not use mechanical filtration.


The second system I would like to describe belongs to Mr. D. Stuber of Berlin, Germany. Mr. Stuber has been in the hobby for more than 20 years and his system is representative of what is known as the "Berlin School" of aquarium keeping. Two 250-watt Osram HQI metal halide lights (replaced every six months), supplemented with blue fluorescents (actinic-type tubes), are used on his 700-liter (185-gallon) aquarium. The lights come on and go off in stages during a 13-hour period.

Filtration consists simply of a small overflow that drains into a sump. The sump contains a few small compartments for prefiltration and one for calcareous gravel, in which denitrification is believed to occur. Water is pumped from the sump into two 4-foot, air driven protein skimmers (completely cleaned everyday) and then flows back into the tank. These skimmers were designed and built by hobbyists in Berlin and have been used for many years. Air is pumped into the skimmers at a rate of 700 liters (185 gallons) per hour, which is approximately 1 liter (0.26 gallon) per hour of air per liter of aquarium water. There are six Tunze Turbelle water pumps located in the tank itself to promote vigorous water movement (Stuber, 1989).

[ChilDawg]

It is generally accepted by the aquarium community that the Berlin system only uses live rock and a protein skimmer, with no other filtration. If we have misinterpreted the way this was originally proposed, so be it, but the general understanding is what Slipknottin had previously stated.

[thom336]

i am aware that the filtration he was referring to was his live rock and sedimentation compartment. however, we are applying this to a freshwater aquarium which would not be able to contain the live rock filtration of the marine aquarium. and, as he did state filtration to be very important in the article i read in practical fishkeeping magazine March 2003, a magazine which Julian Sprung also writes for (i often read his section with great interest), it would be advisable to include it for the well being of the occupants.

[slipknottin]

Not true, live rock has both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. You can easily simulate these conditions with rock such as tufa, or lava rock, and with a moderate to deep substrate.

[thom336]

interesting...i know that tufa and lava rock are very porous, but i dont see how that would all work. care to elaborate?

[slipknottin]

Live rock is very porous also (at least pacific rock anyways)

There was a nice article in TFH about "Freshwater reefs". Ill try to find the article and give you some highlights.

[thom336]

sounds interesting. i think i have heard of something along those lines before...so should be interesting. a thought has just come to me...
If i was to set up a freshwater version of the Berlin system, i would probably run it along the lines of Takashi Amano. His tanks are considered master pieces, and he goes about setting them up the natural way. he takes his design ideas from watching natural water ways, he gets alot of his materials for setting up his tank from nature, and doesnt use mechanical filtration, but instead uses a house plant filter, or a vegetable filter. these filters are very effective at pollution control, and cheap to run. the plants used are spathiphyllum, philodendron, cyperus and monstera deliciosa. these plants are not planted in any medium, and water from the display tank is trickled through on a regular basis. these filters are very effective in the control of nitrogen/nitrate problems - but i do not know the exact schmatics as yet. his tanks fundamentals are:
-strong lighting
-CO2 fertilisation
-substrate fertilisation
-effective biological filtration (the vegetable filter)
-planting 100% ground cover
-free swimming space
-complementary fish and plants
-and the Yamatonuma and Amano shrimps.