Air Gulping? - Please Help

[shibumi2k]

Hi Folks,

Earlier in the week I posted about some high ammonia levels I was having:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68428

I followed the advice - 50% water changes, slowed down the feeding (couple times a day - just a few flakes only), and lowered the temp (currently at 79 down from 82)...

The ammonia levels were not going down at first - even w/ 50% changes, and we lost our pleco :( The lfs said that due to the very high chloramine levels we have here (tampa bay, fl) that I should use Tamsco Zip Drops.. so I took a bottle home..

Another 50% change - vacuum of the bottom - change my charcoal portion of my filter - added the Tamsco - and the next morning (yesterday) my ammonia was down significantly - under .25.. I wanted to take it to 0, but I also wanted to leave the tank for a day also to observe.. (and to help bio grow)

Everyone SEEMED fine.. the up and down swimming of the two fish stopped... everyone was LOVING the flakes and eating fine (only 2x a day)..

Then today, something else is up!! I notice that 2 of my cichlids are hovering vertically at the surface - i'm assuming breathing - hard to tell.. one is actually right at the filter / water return - where the water pours back into the tank - so - he's right at the flow there...

Also - all of the danios (4) are doing a similar thing - but - swimming - horizontally (normal) but right at the surface - looks like their mouths are out too when they do it..

And most importantly - NO ONE wanted to eat today.. verrrrry odd..

And the 3 other cichlids are just 'hidden' away.. they've poked a head out, but are staying near the bottom - not swimming around...

Ammonia is still at the low level from yesterday... ?? Are they just having a delayed reaction from the ammonia earlier in the week?? If so - can anything be done??

Could this be "gill flukes"?? and if so - what's next - just check w/ lfs??

We have LOTS of brown algae now.. on the fake plants and rocks.. it just keeps growing.. could that be hurting them??

Could it be this Tamsco stuff?? I'm using a Python - so - my water goes directly back into the tank.. In this case, I put 1/2 a cap of Aquasafe in while the water was going back in from the Python (enough to treat 20 gallons.. 1/2 cap)...

Then - I took a 5 gallon bucket - put 3/4 cup of Tamsco - was told 1 teaspoon for each gallon due to our high chloramine levels - I put the Tamsco - 3/4 cup - into the bucket w/ 4 ~ 5 gallons of water.. mixed for 1 min.. then let it sit for 5 mins... Then SLOWLY poured into the tank where the water return is to help mix it...

I REALLY don't know how to treat tap water when using a python - is this method ok?? am i better taking all of the fish out when doing water changes???

Thanks for your help...

[TKOS]

Well during cycling the ammonia eventually turns into nitrites. And it is high nitrite levels that generally cause fish to gulp for air as the nitrites get into the gills and block in the intake of O2. Do a test for nitrites if you can.

Chloramines will be a problem as regular dechlorinators break the bond and deal with the chlorine and not the ammonia. I haven't heard of Tamsco, but I do know that Prime and Amquel deal with ammonia by turning it into ammonium which isn't as harmful to fish but still useable by bacteria.

[shibumi2k]

I just did another test... using test strips and the kit..

Test strips show 0 for both nitrates and nitrites - useless...

Test kit shows .1 for nitrites

Ammonia still shows at or juuuuuuust below .25


My wife went to the lfs.. guy there is saying that we did TOO MANY water changes - and too much at a time (50%) - and basically got rid of all of our bacteria.. he said the only thing we can do now is just sit and wait and let it 'cycle again' - and that we'll probably lose some fish - but - nothing we can do about it.. (?????) Just keep adding our bacteria stuff to the tank ("MicroLift Special Blend" - this stuff smells sooooo bad that we have to keep it in the garage.. so - it has SOME kind of bacteria funk in it - not sure if it's the good funk or not.. but it's in there)..

Annnnnnnnnyway - I know his statement is quite contradictory to the opinions here - about stopping the water changes and that water changes disrupt the cycling...

Soooooo - keep on w/ the water changes?? daily?? 50%?? and if so - what's the best way to treat the water we are adding back in using the Python (tap - using the conditioner) - can we pour the water directly in like that as long as we add conditioner to the tank first??

Is a .1 nitrite level high enough to cause the gulping??

thanks again!

[hurricanejedi]

I don't have an answer but I do know the bacteria doesn't live in the water. It lives in the filter and the gravel. So doing water changes certainly didn't hurt the cycle. Something else is going on.

[carpguy]

Here's one link (http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html) and
another (with pictures!) (http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Biorealm/bacteria/nitrospira/Nitrospira.htm) to some good short technical info on the two types of bacteria nitrosomonas (ammonia-eaters) and nitrospira (nitrite-eaters). The short version:


They are largely non-motile and must colonize a surface (gravel, sand, synthetic biomedia, etc.) for optimum growth. They secrete a sticky slime matrix which they use to attach themselves.

They live on stuff. They aren't removed by waterchanges. Waterchanges keep fish alive by diluting toxins. They'll keep increasing until they reach equilibrium with their food supply. Any measurable amount means there is more than they can handle, means they'll keep increasing. Water changes (dilution of the excess toxins) won't slow them down.

If they look like their having trouble breathing, it could be the nitrites. Nitrite interferes with the gills ability to take up oxygen. Salt will block the nitrite from doing this. I'd try one teaspoon of salt (tablesalt is fine). Check here (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml) and scroll down to "Salt and nitrite uptake".

I've never heard of Tamsco Zip Drops and Google doesn't seem to have heard much of them either. What are they suppposed to do? Do they list an active ingredient? I'd just stick with Prime or Amquel: they both have good reputations, they both will neutralize Chloramines and Ammonia.

[kyle3]

i would call your water company and ask them how many parts per million (ppm) of chloramine they add-

are there any fish keepers from your area on the forum- if we could find them maybe they could tell you how they treat thier water.

it definately sounds like your fish are struggling to get air- water changes increase oxygen under normal conditions

if there is chlorine or chloramine or amonia that is not being neutralized my your water conditioner they could be causeing the gasping

i propose an expirament: fill your 5 gallon bucket and add just your water conditioner not the second chemical he sold you.

wait and hour and test it - you'll need to test for chlorine, chloramine and amonia a master test kit might be in order

if there are any left over chemicals add small mounts of the de-chloramine-er(is that what the bottle says it removes?) until your test results all read zero

then do the water change

do the symptoms lessen after water change?

if you've gotten everything out they should.

i doubt this is a parasite of any kind- it sounds like chemical poisoning

let us know if you have any changes or figure anything else out

good luck! -Kyle

[shibumi2k]

THANKS for the quick replies, suggestions, and links!!

A key one may be the salt! During the most recent change (2 days ago), I may not have added in enough of the 'cichlid salt' that I use.. I mixed some up w/ some tank water and then poured it back in the tank... I'll let it sit for an hour and see if there is any change..

However - as SOON as i did it, i realized "DUH - should have done a water change first.." sorry - still in a panic mode here, and didn't think that one through all the way.. :)

hopefully it will block some of the nitrite affects.. will see in an hour.. no change then i'll do a 50% water change..

As for the Tamsco Zip Drops - I couldn't find much info on it either when searching.. The label says it contains Sodium Thiosulfate & Sodium Carbonate.

[kyle3]

apperenty the sodium thiosulfate is the chlorine remover after a quick search i haven't see any indication it addresses chloramine

i read the beginning of your other thread- are you still over dosing your water conditioner?

if so and then you're also adding this you may have WAY too much of a good thing it is important to add only the recomended amout of conditioner- 20 gallons worth in 5 gallons is totally over doing it.

all the chemicals you add should only be used acording to thier directions

. . . unless we specifically tell you other wise ;)

[Roan Art]

Then - I took a 5 gallon bucket - put 3/4 cup of Tamsco - was told 1 teaspoon for each gallon due to our high chloramine levels - I put the Tamsco - 3/4 cup - into the bucket w/ 4 ~ 5 gallons of water.. mixed for 1 min.. then let it sit for 5 mins... Then SLOWLY poured into the tank where the water return is to help mix it...

"Zip Drops Dechlorinator / breaks chloramine lock, Gallon Size. Treats 15,360 gals at average chlorine and chloramine levels. 1 teaspoon treats 20 gals. Extra shipping. Active Ingredients: Sodium thiosulfate and sodium carbonate."

So, your LFS told you to put the equivillent of 36 teaspoons of this dechlorinator in your tank?

I'm not a chemist and there's a lot I don't understand, but sodium carbonate, which, if I'm reading this correctly is very alkaline will probably affect your pH, KH and possibly GH. What is your pH reading now?

Sodium thiosulfate will only unbind the chloramine and remove the chlorine. There is nothing in here that will deal with ammonia that I can see, unless it's the carbonate and I've found no reference to it. There's nothing in this stuff that deals with ammonia at all.

My advice is to ditch that LFS and find some Prime, which DOES deal with the ammonia produced by breaking the chlorine/ammonia bond.

Roan

[carpguy]

During the most recent change (2 days ago), I may not have added in enough of the 'cichlid salt' that I use..

The chloride in regular salt is what you're looking for as far as the nitrites go. One recipe (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php) I found for 'Cichlid Salt' includes plenty of sodium chloride salt, but check your label just to be sure.


As for the Tamsco Zip Drops - I couldn't find much info on it either when searching.. The label says it contains Sodium Thiosulfate & Sodium Carbonate.

Some good news and some bad news on the Tamsco. Sodium Thiosulfate will neutralize Chlorine and (reliable sources have it) Chloramine and does so by turning it into Chloride. And you want that at the moment.

When it neutralizes the Chloramine however, Ammonia is a byproduct and it doesn't do anything to neutralize the ammonia. And that's bad. You want something that does both. I like Amquel, there are others.

So far as I can tell the Sodium Carbonate is just a buffering agent, isn't doing anything to the Chloramines.

[Jay]

IMO you need to take a step back, take a deep breath and consider what you are doing.

Your lfs has in all probability sold you some snake oil, has not given you any good advice or direction that I can see. Your fish are clearly reacting to the water quality. OD on the thiosulphate, who knows what the bacteria glop is, they (your fish) are telling you to change the water and stop throwing stuff, you have no idea about, in randomly.

IME Dip strip tests are not accurate, they will only get you in the ballpark do not depend on them for major decisions.

You need to search and do a little reading on nitrifing Bacteria and learn what that is all about.

The numbers you posted are not perfect but they are not a disaster either.
Keep doing the water chances and let the tank finish cycling.

Use Prime for your water conditioner (follow the directions) end of worries there.

Here it is... Water Change 80% - Using the Correct amount of Prime - add a little salt if you want - leave it alone

Check for Ammonia and Nitrites in 24 hours if they are a little high do it over again.

Jay

[kyle3]

jay's right

[shibumi2k]

Crisis Averted?? (For the moment at least...)

I started on a water change after my last post, prior to some of these other posts coming in.. For the *moment* (past hour?) things seem to be better.. The fish are swimming - they all actually ATE!! - and only one has gone back to the top for a 'gulp', but then started swimming again..

So thanks to all for the quick tips and advice... kind of scary to think the lfs guy told us to just let it sit and ride it out.. 'may lose a few fish.. but oh well'.. sheesh!!!

A few of them DO look like they are "itching"... they've done the 'brush against the rock' thing - quick swipes, like they are scratching something.. maybe because their gills are still bothering them??? I don't see any white spots or dots on them...

To answer some other questions - I actually did ask for Prime and / or Amquel when I went to the lfs the other day - but was told that instead, for our chloramines - to use the Tamsco.. It does say "Instant Chlorine & Chloramine remover" on it..

I also saw those instructions when I first got it - about 1 DROP per gallon, but the lfs put their own sticker over the bottle labeling that says add 1 teaspoon per gallon - sooooooooo - go figure THAT one out!! their own testing?? i dunno...

We'll go back tonight and look for the Prime - i don't think they carry it - and haven't seen it at any of the other local (petsmart) stores.. but i'll keep looking...

oh - and yes, i have stopped using the nutrafin or topfin "Aquasafe" - the other conditioner..

I DO still have some concerns / questions on putting water BACk into the tank.. how are you folks doing it?? Do you use Pythons or similar devices that go right from the sink to the tank?? Or are you going bucket by bucket??

This last change we played it all reaaaal safe and went bucket by bucket (~ 4 buckets)... wish we could use the Python to go straight from the synch, but not sure we can w/ this or ANY conditioner..

I guess what I'm asking is - DOES the water have to be 'conditioned' first in a bucket before adding to the tank, or can the conditioning take place "in the tank" by adding Prime and then adding the new tap water??

Roan: Just tested pH - right about 7.8.. which is about where it usually is (we do have coral (forget it's technical name) below our gravel - maybe that's helping to buffer???

Jay - thanks I will follow your advice for the next few changes - hopefully we can find some Prime!!

thanks!

[carpguy]

Here's a link (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm) covering Chlorine and Chloramines. The short version:

EPA Guidelines set a maximum allowed level of Chlorine of 4ppm. Most water supplies target 2-4 ppm Chlorine. Note that 4ppm of Chlorine is actually 5.8ppm Chloramine. (The Chlorine is 69% of the chloramine molecule, ammonia is the other 31%).

Anything that you can find that does both chloramines and ammonia will do. Prime, Amquel, there are several others. If it doesn't mention ammonia its not sufficient (I didn't realize until today that there were dechlorinators that don't also handle the ammonia).

These work right away. You can just add them in and refill with the Python. Much easier.

I don't know what to make of the Tamsco stuff. I'd use the Nutrafin for the time being: its basically the same stuff and your sure of the dosage (if you check the label it probably says sodium thiosulfate as well).

[Roan Art]

Nod carpguy and that's why I push Prime or Aquel on people -- because they are the ones I *know* will handle the ammonia released when the chloramine is unbonded. There are far too many others that do not give complete information on their labels. And I'm just not comfortable with that or their ability to keep my or anyone else's fish safe.

One of the best sites I've ever found for that type of information is Kordon's site, the people who make Amquel. They do not futz around and tell it to you straight up -- positive or negative -- about their products. I especially love their Product Data sheets.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon.htm

Roan

[shibumi2k]

UTTER CONFUSION!!

We left for the lfs to look for some Prime.. all was well w/ the fish when we left - back to normal it seemed...

We got their LAST bottle of Prime.. (small red label bottle - made by Seachem?? hope this is this right stuff)...

Anyway - we get back home and EVERY FISH is now doing the 'horizontal surface gulp'.. before we did today's change it was only two - and they stopped after the change.. what happened??

Should we do another water change (second one today)?? Or just add in the Prime and see what happens??

REALLY makes me suspicious of the Tamsco stuff now... I dunno..

So change again - or just Prime it and wait??

Thanks again for everyone's help on this..

[shibumi2k]

Just did a water test... Ammonia shows really low - .6 on the color chart - barely yellow.. .6 doesn't even show up on their chart to measure NH3.. it starts at the next shade up - 1.2.. and this wasn't really even close to that..

and Nitrite was .1 again - barely pink...


Now - I didn't wanna mention this, for fear of being laughed off the forum.. but.. the guy talked me into buying a $10 air pump and a small areator.. he was saying that it sounded to him like my fish weren't getting enough oxygen in the water.. when I got home, seeing them all at the top, i figured it couldn't hurt to put it in...

Well - now 30 mins after adding the aireator, NONE of the fish are at the top (??!!?) Looks like they are all swimming normally again.. :P

Could they really have been deprived of oxygen?? Is it jsut coincidence?? I thought all you needed was the HOB filter - a lil displacement at the top of the water.. maybe I didnt' have enough???

Definitely Straaaaaaaaaaaaange..

Still wondering if I should pour in some Prime or do a change...

thanks :help:

[Roan Art]

1. Change the water
2. Add the Prime
3. Get a test tube kit, perferably the AP Master Test kit
4. Whenever the ammonia gets above .25, do a waterchange
5. Whenever the nitrites get above .25, do a waterchange
6. Use the air pump if it makes you feel better. Nitrite will bind the cells in the blood that carry oxygen, ergo, it's entirely possible for fish to suffocate. THAT'S why they are gasping at the surface. The air pump is a short-term help and not the solution.
7. Stop listening to that LFS.
8. Smile and tell yourself "it's just a hobby" or you will go nuts.

Roan

[shibumi2k]

Thanks Roan (and everyone)...

We did another change today (both ammonia and nitrite had risen slightly)... added the Prime..

They all seem to be doing much better today - even w/ the higher levels before the change.. :)

Does Prime tend to throw off the results of the nitrite and ammonia tests? just curious..

We have a "Mini Master Test Kit" from Hagen, plus an additional Hagen Ammonia kit that uses Salicylate method...

[Star_Rider]

I've been following this thread and you have been getting some great information.

I don't think prime will influence the nitrite reading on your test kit.but, depending on the kit, since prime essentially removes the chlorine and turns the ammonia into ammonium..which can give a positive reading for ammonia.some call it a false positive)

glad to see your fish are doing better.

[Roan Art]

I've been following this thread and you have been getting some great information.

I don't think prime will influence the nitrite reading on your test kit.but, depending on the kit, since prime essentially removes the chlorine and turns the ammonia into ammonium..which can give a positive reading for ammonia.some call it a false positive)

glad to see your fish are doing better.
Good response.

All test kits that use Nessler or salicylate methods will give you an ammonia reading for ammonium. Just remember that ammonium is harmless to your fish.

Roan

[carpguy]

I'm not sure what Prime does to ammonia, but Amquel doesn't turn it into ammonium, it turns it into something else. Not sure how that tests out.

Test kits react to total ammonia/ammonium.

Sodium thiosulfate dechlorinators (most (all?) of them) will also react with chlorides in the test kit and produce a positive for ammonia, even if there isn't any ammonia (a false positive).


(from the SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/tetkit.shtml))
What happens is this: the sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, is reacting with the chloride ion that is part of the test reagents. After 24 hours, though, according to Seachem, the Na2S2O3 will have have reacted with chloride ions naturally found in water, and will no longer give such false-positive readings.

[Roan Art]

I'm not sure what Prime does to ammonia, but Amquel doesn't turn it into ammonium, it turns it into something else. Not sure how that tests out.
Test kits react to total ammonia/ammonium.
Amquel: http://www.novalek.com/kpd51.htm

"AmQuel is compatible to use with all water quality test kits except for the ammonia test kit that uses Nessler reagents that read in shades of amber or yellow, and the oxygen kit that uses Winkler reagents. Residual AmQuel and its reaction products are incompatible with the Nessler and Winkler-type test reagents, resulting in false, high ammonia and low oxygen concentration readings. All other types of test kits produce accurate test results, such as ammonia test kits using salicylate-type reagents."
Amquel+: http://www.novalek.com/kpd79.htm

AmQuel+ is compatible to use with all water quality test kits except for the ammonia test kit that uses Nessler reagents that read in shades of amber or yellow, and the oxygen test kit that uses Winkler reagents. Residual AmQuel+ and its reaction products are incompatible with the Nessler-and Winkler type reagents, resulting in false, high ammonia and low oxygen concentration readings. Ammonia test kits using salicylate-type reagents are appropriate for accurate test results.

Sodium thiosulfate dechlorinators (most (all?) of them) will also react with chlorides in the test kit and produce a positive for ammonia, even if there isn't any ammonia (a false positive). Would you cite your source for this, please? This is something that I've certainly not heard of and I've done a fair amount of research on this. Thanks!

Roan

[shibumi2k]

So how do you all determine if you're getting false positives -or- if you have a real ammonia problem going on??

[shibumi2k]

These Guys & Gals (http://www.flickr.com/photos/shibumi2k/sets/72057594062392275/) say THANKS to everyone for all your help!!

:thm:

[Roan Art]

So how do you all determine if you're getting false positives -or- if you have a real ammonia problem going on??
Two ways I use, there may be better ways, but this is what I do:

Know what the ammonia of your tap is at all times. After a water change on a cycled tank, if the ammonia reading does not disppear in a couple of hours, you have a problem.

Buy a test kit like SeaChem Total/Free Ammonia. It tests for both Free Ammonia (NH3, not good) and Ionized Ammonia (NH4+, harmless).

I usually test my water an hour or two after a change and if I suspect anything, I test with the SeaChem kit to make sure. IMO the SeaChem kit is a pain to use all the time. Expensive, too, so I just use it to verify that a problem isn't there.

ROan

[carpguy]

Would you cite your source for this, please? This is something that I've certainly not heard of and I've done a fair amount of research on this. Thanks!
I was on my way out the door earlier, so I didn't search everything out on that last post. Apologies for any confusion.

For the bit about Amquel not converting ammonia to ammonium, also at Novalek's site (http://www.novalek.com/kpd58.htm):

…The active ingredient in AmQuel is known chemically as sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate, HOCH2SO3Na.…
The hydroxymethane- end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by the bacteria in biological filtration.
…
…
The -sulfonate end of the AmQuel molecule reacts with both free-available chlorine, known properly as hypochlorites (OCl-) and combined-available chlorine (chloramines). In the first instance nothing more than harmless chloride ions (Cl- ) are produced, and in the latter instance chloride ions are formed and the freed ammonia instantly reacts with the hydroxy-methane end of the molecule.

It turns ammonia into aminomethanesulfonate, doesn't use sodium thiosulfate.

The bit about sodium thiosulfate and false positives was cited above (in the quote) as being from the SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/tetkit.shtml). (Scroll down to "Ammonia Tests"; third paragraph).

He cites Seachem's website as his source, but if whatever he read is still up at Seachem, I can't find it.

The SkepticalAquarist used to post here as WetmanNY, although I haven't seen him posting anywhere for some time. I'd put him roughly on par with RTR and consider his info reliable and well-researched.

EDIT: :OT: I searched around a bit for the Wetfeller and found this old thread (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12728) which may be of interest to anyone in a fishless cycle frame of mind.

[Roan Art]

I was on my way out the door earlier, so I didn't search everything out on that last post. Apologies for any confusion.We're even. Kids were driving me nuts and I couldn't even think ;)


For the bit about Amquel not converting ammonia to ammonium, also at Novalek's site (http://www.novalek.com/kpd58.htm):

…The active ingredient in AmQuel is known chemically as sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate, HOCH2SO3Na.…
The hydroxymethane- end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by the bacteria in biological filtration.
. . .
It turns ammonia into aminomethanesulfonate, doesn't use sodium thiosulfate.
Interesting stuff. I'll have to read it in depth later today. Man I love that Novalek site.


He cites Seachem's website as his source, but if whatever he read is still up at Seachem, I can't find it.

The SkepticalAquarist used to post here as WetmanNY, although I haven't seen him posting anywhere for some time. I'd put him roughly on par with RTR and consider his info reliable and well-researched.How old is the stuff on that site, though? I used to do a lot of reading at his site, but some of the information seems to be outdated (eg: the SeaChem's website source reference) and many of the links et al do not work.

That's the only reason I don't cite from him at all. I have to doubt if it's current information or not. Maybe he isn't in the hobby anymore or doesn't have time for web stuff?

Roan

Did a few searches and can find nothing from WetmanNY after 2004, then I found this:

http://tropicalresources.net/phpBB2/trusted_friends.php
Interesting. Wonder what the background is?