Need help with plant ferts

[IceH2O]

I use 1.75 wpg of light, have mostly stem plants and sand substrate, no injection.Seachem root tabs for root feeders.

I have some brown algae on the glass and some of the plant leaves. I have a nice tuff of green algae on an ornament near the intake tube, I kind of like the way it looks.

I have been using something called PlantGro by Hagen, but I think its just a trace fert and not carbon.


I can't find flourish or flourish excel in town, will order some tonight. Should I buy both or is one better than another?


For future references what dry ferts should I get to mix my own water column ferts? A link that shows levels needed for a 75 gallon tank would be a plus also.

[Captain Hook]

For calculating levels, the best one I know is if the APC Fertilator (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php) I like it because it will add up all the variables at once.

There's a downloadable program by Chuck Gadd that will also calculate levels. I've found there is a slight difference between the two when using teaspoons. Chuck Gadd's calculator program (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm)

There is a PlantGro fertilizer that is for traces and iron, and there is one that has N-P-K in it. Flourish Comprehensive is also a trace fertilizer. Flourish Excel is a liquid carbon source. If you're getting Excel for a 75 gallon tank, I'd suggest buying a big bottle.

The dry ferts generally used are KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4, CaCl2, and MgSO4. You may not require all of these. KNO3 and KH2PO4 are pretty much considered the basics.

If you can, try to find out what is actually in your tap water. If it's high in nitrates, you might not need to add any KNO3. Same goes for phosphates, KH2PO4 might not be needed. Calcium and Magnesium levels could be high enough from the tap as well. This of course assumes that you are doing large and frequent enough changes to reach these levels.

[IceH2O]

Thanks...



My tap water has 2.5 ppm of natural nitrates.

Mg and Ca are measured using GH right? If so they are very low, around 2 or 3.

Phosphates I'd need to test for, but going by Chuck Gadds site :

"If you aren't adding CO2 to your water, and the CO2 level based on the pH and KH indicates more than 5ppm, then it is very likely that some other buffer (such as phosphate) is present in your water. "

According to his chart I have 14 ppm (ph 6.8 and KH 3), so phosphates are most likely there, just don't know to what degree.


edit: Okay I went to greg watsons shop and bought
KNO3
K2SO4
CaCl2
MgSO4.7H2O

The Ca will raise my KH right? If I add 3 tsps I'll be adding 16.85 + my normal 3 for a total of 19.85 ppm..How much will that make my PH rise?

If i'm not injecting do these values still count for me or do I need to be at the lower end instead of the middle?

[Captain Hook]

Hmm...where to start. Try to get a water quality report, preferably 2005, from your water supply people. They made me a spreadsheet with the nutrients I requested. In early 2005 they also mailed me the 2004 reports. GH is mostly made up of Ca and Mg, but that does not give you their individual values. It could be mostly one or the other.

It would be very good to know what kind of phosphates you have in your water as well. Mine is very low, about 0.1 ppm, but it could be alot higher in your case.

Is it too late to add some KH2PO4 to your order? It would be good to have it, just in case. If it is don't worry you can find other sources, as long as you're not embarassed buying an enema :D

As far as I know, adding Ca or Mg will not change your KH.

GH is not measured in ppm.

[IceH2O]

Water report is out of the question as I'm on an individual well system.

That fert caculator is pretty awesome. I was wondering if when you do a water change say 50%, do you only add back enough fert to match the 50% of water you're replacing and is it best to mix all the ferts together in one gallon of water and pour it into the tank or mix them individually?

[Captain Hook]

Hmm, maybe try getting a phosphate (PO4) test kit then. That would be something that's good to know.

I add enough fertilizer to get the levels I want in the whole tank, not just the new water. Tom Barr says the maximum uptake by plants with high light and high CO2 is about 0.4 ppm of PO4 and 4 ppm of nitrates (NO3) a day.

Based on this I usually dose around 6-8 ppm N03, 1.5 ppm P04, and 9 ppm K every 3 days. I have been experiementing with changing this a bit. These are just my numbers, not meant to be your guideline.

When I dose, I use a small container with about 100-150 mL of hot water. I add all or most of the dry chemicals I want to dose, put the lid on the container and shake. Then add about 200 mL cool water and pour into the tank.

An easier way to do it is to mix a solution. Just some rough numbers for a guideline, 15 g KNO3, 15 g K2SO4, 4 g KH2PO4 in 500 mL of water. You can do this so 1 mL of your solution will give you 1 ppm of NO3. Or less potent so 5 mL will add 1 ppm to the tank.

[IceH2O]

Appreciate the help.

I'm guessing since I'm medium low light and no injection my plants won't use as much fert. I could probably get away with once a week dosing.

Since i don't inject yet, are the ferts going to help algae grow or will the plants still outcompete the algae?

[IceH2O]

Medium Low light ( 1.75 wpg ) + dry ferts - co2 injection = ???????


Since there is no injection, and a lower level of lighting do I need to stay on the low end of the scale? ex- nitrate 10 -20 should I stay closer to 10 or does it matter?

[Captain Hook]

What kind of lighting do you have? About 130 watts right? Is that 2 - 65 watt bulbs? How long has the tank been running?

Without CO2 injection you will have slower growth rates and as a result, lower nutrient demands. If your fish load is fairly low, you will probably need to add some nitrate so it does not reach 0. This is assuming your water isn't too high in NO3 to begin with. If you run out of nitrates, you will have algae problems. Same thing with PO4.

The fertilizer moderator on APC, Edward, has developed a system of dosing daily. He strongly believes that growth is better with fresh nutrients added daily. I usually dose every 3-4 days. In your tank you could probably go with one large dosing after water changes (assuming weekly changes) or split that dosage into two or three times during the week.

I don't have CO2 going in my 25 gallon that has about 1.5 wpg of fluorescents. I went a long time without adding any liquid fertilizer. Only Jobes sticks for lush ferns and palms in the substrate. The tank was mostly crypts and java fern with a low fish load. Now it has some vals and Hygrophila polysperma so I add small amounts of liquid fertilizer, usually around 5-1-10, once or twice a week.

This method of supplying lots of nutrients through gravel sticks seems to be becoming outdated. The new and preferred method is to stick with liquid fertilizing only. It's easier to control what's in the tank like this.

[IceH2O]

Yeah its 130 watts CF 65 watts a piece. This tank has only been up since 1st week of Feburary 2006.

It has:
2 soon to be 3 clown loaches
4 dwarf gourmais
2 senegal birchirs
MT snails

So I should stay at the lower level and just check my levels around mid week and see if it needs to be hit again.

I noticed some green spot algae in my 55. Isn't that caused by a phosphate deficency? Maybe I need some Fleet after all.Also my 75 has green hair algae on a rock shelf ornament, but I like the look of it so I'm not worried about it as long as it stays there.

Also do these dry ferts help give out carbon or do I still need to buy Excel?

[Captain Hook]

Excel would be good. Pressurized would be great if you ever decide to get into CO2. Those fertilizers don't do anything in the way of carbon.

I've read the spot algae on the glass is caused by low phosphates or low CO2 levels. I get it fairly regularly in my non-CO2 tank.

[IceH2O]

I got my dry ferts in the mail today.

Would it be a good idea to wait to add them till I get Excel?

Is the low CO2 levels going to cause an algae outbreak with the added ferts?

[IceH2O]

I looked at the caculator on APC and came up with for a 75 gallon tank:

KNO3-- 1 tsp will add 11.23 ppm, my tank has about 5-7 after a water change which will end up giving me 16- 18 ppm

KH2PO4-- I didn't order because I don't have a test probably buy Fleet for this tho I believe my water has some according to the CO2 chart.

K2SO4-- 1 tsp will add 17.2 ppm

CaCl2-- 3.25 tsps will give me 16.85 ppm should I aim higher as I'm closer to the bottom end

MgSO4.7H2O--2.5 tsps will give me 4.21 ppm

Iron I have flourish and assume it will meet the needs

I haven't bough Excel yet, I'll find some tomorrow as the store I was at didn't carry it.

Any suggestions? Would you increase any of the amounts?

[IceH2O]

:hang:

With all these plant growing aquarists you'd think I could get more opinions than just Capt. Hook, who has been a big help.

[Hannys_Papa]

Well i guess i qualify as a "plant growing aquarist" - but i also grow algae and have only been growing plants for about 5 months. Things are finally getting better though (since i started dosing GW ferts etc - basically what you are doing now).

I thought it might be important to mention that when you use the fertilator that you claculate with the actual water volume - not tank size. As you know a 75G might only hold 60G of water or even less depending on decor. That can throw off your calculations quite easily.
Not that dosing ferts is that exact of a science....

I dont think you need to worry about the Ca and Mg that much. I've asked this before and people tell me aslong as theres some there it'll be ok. Actually i've been dosing a lot more Ca than the calculator suggests in ppm - but its not for the plants i do it for the snails.

EDIT: Wait i don't think i actually qualify as "aquarist" - i came across a definition of the various "levels" of our hobby and i think the aquarist was the top one - i guess it would be arrogant to say i reached that level already. :)

[IceH2O]

Thanks..

I don't really have much in the way of decor, at most if I took it all out I might drop the water 2 or 3 gallons. I recaculated using 5 gallons less of actual water and the caulations are still within safe ranges.

Ca and MG I need to dose as my GH is like 3 and I have MTS in the tank as well as the plants.

I've gotten some more plants in and the tank is about 50% planted now, if I were to move all the plants to one side, I'll get some pics up soon.

Guess I'll mix my ferts today and see what happens. Going hiking with my 4 yr old so I'll pick up the Fleet and Excel on the way home.

[IceH2O]

I'm having a hard time getting the CaCl2 to dissolve, is it going to be bad to drop into the tank not fully dissolved? Will the fish eat it and die?

Greg messed up my order and sent Calcium carbonate instead of KNO3. My NA reading is 10 ppm is this going to be okay if I don't dose any phosphate, I'm not sure what numbers it appears in my water but there has to be some according to the CO2 chart which shows I have 14 ppm of CO2, which we all know is hogwash.

[Hannys_Papa]

I am surprised you have a hard time dissolving the Cacl2. I usually drop it in my HOB and within 30 seconds its all "gone".
I also use some "Barr gH booster" - and that stuff is different - takes several minutes to dissolve and usually makes my tank look like i dropped flour in it untill it does.

[IceH2O]

Maybe I'll try it that way next time. I was just trying to mix it up in a bottle with the other ferts.

The water flowing through it might break it up better.

[IceH2O]

Been reading some posts that deal with EI, does it also work with Non CO2 tanks?

Why is it a 21 day thing? Do you take a week off for things to catch up and stabilize?

Any tips from post 1 to now would be appreciated. I did mix a batch and added to the tank Sunday

K2SO4-- 1 tsp (17.2 ppm)

CaCl2-- 4 tsps (22.47 ppm)

MgSO4.7H2O--2.5 tsps (4.21 ppm)

My Nitrates were already 10 ppm

and will add some flourish tonight. Still need Excel..

Can already see new growth on the plants..

[SnakeIce]

Here is the deal with EI, if you do the 50% weekly waterchanges you can add the ammount of ferts as if you have a high light co2 tank. You can't build up to much ferts that way and you know without a doubt you won't run out. Running out ime is when algae has it's day. Now you can do some alteration of that, gradually cut the ferts back, one at a time, till you see the plants not grow as well then bump it up a little.

I have found that with low light no co2 I can dose 3/4 to 1/2 the recomended high light levels and do fine. ymmv

EI is about makeing sure you don't run out, with resets by waterchange ensureing you don't get to high levels.

[reiverix]

The beauty about EI is its simplicity. A kind of obvious way to dose your tank. Works with any lighting level and with or without CO2. I've read many posts by Tom Barr saying the only real danger is low or eratic CO2 levels, but that's hardly the fault of EI.

[IceH2O]

My tank is to big for DYI and I've spent so much on buying and setting up the 2 tanks that injection will have to wait till next year.

My PH is 6.8 and KH around 3 -4 which leaves me on the low side of CO2. Should I dose Excel daily/ every other day to help with CO2 levels?

Since I'm low light low CO2 and not high level would I be better off taking my preposted measurements and cutting them in half and dosing twice a week dry ferts (Sat and Wed) and flourish (Sun, Tues,Thurs)?

[IceH2O]

Come on guys... I know, but won't name any names, that there are many planted tanks on this forum.

I can't believe I haven't gotten more responses towards helping me get my tank fertilizing regiment right.

[reiverix]

Ok lets assume that you're on a 50% WC schedule. One thing I always dose during the WC is potassium, K2SO4. If you add around 20ppm you can't go wrong and you should never see a deficiency in that area. I've never heard of a K overdose or any algae issues caused by K.

You GH is a bit on the low side. I would start at 10ppm Mg and 40ppm Ca (to keep the 1:4 ratio) and monitor from there. Snails are a good calcium indicator. Pond snails seem to be the most susceptible to white shell syndrome.

PO4 and NO3 will be dosed based on uptake. Get to know what your plants needs by testing at first and dosing as required. Most people recommend a 10:1 ratio of NO3 to PO4. High levels of these won't cause algae if they are in balance. I don't have Tom Barrs confidence to say dose x and y amount every other day. When first starting a planted tank, testing does make you feel a bit safer.

It's really up to you if you want to dose Excel or try CO2. You current lighting doesn't make it essential.

[IceH2O]

Thanks reiverix,

So essentially I should double my Ca and Mg and everything else looks good?

I still need a PO4 test so I can make sure I'm 10:1 with nitrates. I know I have some phosphates in my water just not what amount.

My nitrates were 10 when I dosed on Sunday. I did another NA test today and it hasn't dropped. I guess that means I shouldn't add nitrates when I dose, that I should wait until I see the plant load start eating them up.

I didn't think I'd need CO2 or Excel but the Excel will help plant growth right? I'd like to see some good growth,so I can start helping with the give/take a plant thread, just not have it take over the tank.

[reiverix]

You may not need to add Ca or Mg. It's not really carved in stone, but your GH would make me inclined to get the values up a bit. I think Greg Watson sells the Barr GH booster that might help you. I've been thinking about trying it out myself.

There's no harm at all in trying Excel on your tank. I'm sure it will help out some. Maybe nothing spectacular but probably noticable.

[IceH2O]

I was just reading Tom Barrs EI in another forum.

He was saying that in a non co2 tank not to do water changes, just top off the water. Even with fish in the tank. Is this nuts or what?

How do you remove heavy metals, or do the plants end up using them?

I guess if the nitrate rate is growing instead of dropping then you'd have to do a water change. I'm also thinking I read that its only in a heavily planted tank, which mine isn't.

Just thought that info went against everything I've ever read.

[IceH2O]

Okay well my Excel is supposed to arrive today so I can actually give my plants some CO2 now. I noticed after starting dosing that the algae on the ornaments have died. Believe its hair algae, looks almost like a lawn(?), but its still on the leaves of some plants. I'm going to try overdosing the Excel as I've read this will sometimes kill the algae.

I have a question about my 55 gallon. Its also a 1.75 wpg tank but with gravel and only has swords and some xmass moss. I haven't added anything to this tank but flourish. The swords are doing ok but I can tell they need a boost. Would I be better off dosing ferts or just adding root tabs?

[IceH2O]

Is there reason you guys dose micros every other day besides the obvious?

Since I just did a pwc and redosed my macros and added excel can I add my traces today also? Or is it better to wait till tomorrow. Seems that the nutrients are out of balance at the moment without the trace, but I'm just assuming.

[IceH2O]

While I'm in the asking mood...

Is there a way to test how much CO2 Excel is putting into the tank?

I'm assuming it doesn't lower PH to counter KH to make CO2.

Also the water out of my tap is PH 6 and after it degasses rises to 6.8. Does this CO2 degassing get used by the plants or does it just disipate?

[reiverix]

Excel doesn't put any actual CO2 into the tank, it just adds a carbon source that the plants can use. It shouldn't affect pH or KH.

The CO2 in your tapwater will degass quite quickly. Maybe the plants can make use of it for the short while it's in the tank but probably not enough to make a difference.

[IceH2O]

Ok thanks..

Next question:

How do you calibrate an AP nitrate test? How much KNO3 into how much water to get a reading of 5 or 10 ppm? Would I just use the fertilizing caculator and set it at 1 gallon then take a sample from it?

[Hannys_Papa]

What do you mean by "calibrating" it ? Checking to make sure when you read (i.e.) 10ppm by using the colour chart you actually have 10ppm of NO3 in the water ?

EDIT: I have the AP nitrate kit and when testing the solution i mixed it was "right on".

[IceH2O]

I want to make sure that when i read 10 ppm in my tank that it is 10 ppm.

If I could make a mixture I know is 10 ppm and it reads 10 ppm then I know its accurate. If it reads 20 ppm I know its off.

[Hannys_Papa]

I used the "fertilator" for my calculations. Used my tank volume and figured out how much to dose for 1ppm - then mixed a stock solution so that when i take 1ml of that solution i get 1ppm in my tank.

(my planted tank is only 10G so this made the following a bit easier).

I then used a 1G bucket - but instead of dosing 10ml (=10ppm in my tank) i used 1ml. The test kit read 10ppm as close as that seems possible with the colour charts.

For calibrating i'd do something like this:
5G bucket (filled with water) + 1 teaspoon KNO3 (don't know if you have a gram scale ?) = 169ppm of KNO3
Mix really well
Take out 0.3 Gallons of that mix (1.1Liter).
Dump the rest of the water in the 5G.
Put 0.3G = 1.1Liter back - add enough water so you have 5G again
~ this water should now contain 10ppm NO3

Yeah i know - this is probably way too complicated. I am sure there is an easier way but thats what i'd do. LOL

[IceH2O]

Thanks. I was trying to figure out on the fertilator how much in a 1 gallon bucket. I couldn't get the tsps down low enough lol. Never thought of doing a 5 gallon and then diluting it.

[Hannys_Papa]

Well thats why i did it that way - i can't measure very small units (have no scale) - so am forced to work with teaspoons, ml etc.

Oh and of course i took the liberty to round a bit here and there when making those calculations - but considering the AP kit and the fact that dosing ferts isn't an exact science i don't think it matters that much.