Otto question

[alexv1n]

The other day I decided to get some Otto cats to keep algae in check. I went to an LFS and bought 3 ottos whom I placed in a quarantine tank.

I kind of made a mistake when introducing them to the tank because I wasn't very patient and after floating the plastic bag for half an hour I have added some aquarium water to it and about ten minutes later I put the fish in the tank.

Well, I didn't do my fair amount of research and wasn't aware that these fish are really easy to stress when putting in a new environment. Anyway, after about 20 minutes I noticed that the fish "stood" on their fins. Their bodies seemed very tense and then after about another 5 minutes they started to swim franticly, going up and down along the glass.

In the end, one fish was dead maybe within 1 hour upon introduction. Oh, I must note that I took the water from the main tank which has been running OK for 2 months now with perfect water quality parameters (as far as I can tell from my test equipment) - Ammonia (0), Nitrite (0), Nitrate (0), Phosphates (0), pH (7.2), KH (4°dH), GH (6°dH).

I have removed the dead otto and the remaining two appeared to be in shock but breathing. They survived through the night and the next morning I discovered that both have some sort of spine deformities. One fish had some apparent bend in the spine while the other had kind of "S" shaped bend. I have replaced the dead fish with a new otto I got and I acclimatized it properly this time and it seemed to be doing OK initially.

Anyway, two days later the three aren't still very active. Lying most of the time or hanging by the glass. They do seem to eat from time to time. The otto with "S" curved spine seemed to have straightened up and now appears normal. However the second "bent" otto, even though straight now, has some kind of inflamation on the body. The whole part from the dorsal fin to the tail is reddish and slightly swollen.

I suspect that they could have been hurt at LFS when being netted but I don't dismiss the possibility of disease. From what I've read, the only disease which usually causes spinal deformities is TB. I hope that's not the case.

The fish is still eating a little bit and sometimes swim around, but mostly lie down. Sometimes some of them even could lie on its side, almost belly-up. But then a few minutes later turns up and acts normal.

I'm kind of concerned and I'm even considering destroying them, disinfecting the tank and get some other fish (like CAEs). Any ideas or suggestions as to what I should do before I freeze those poor things. I like the fish's looks and smaller size but I have recently read a lot of horror stories about keeping ottos and them dying like flies...

[Winnie]

From my experience with ottos in three different tanks, the following describes "normal" behavior patterns:
- they freak out easily and dash around when startled
- their normal state is hanging on the side of the glass or hiding in plants
- they eat nothing but brown algae and algae wafers (usually at night only)

Within my population of 9 ottos, there exists a few 'deformities', but the fish seem to be doing alright and acting normally. I know someone with a flying fox with the big hump back you describe and it has lasted for months so far in that state.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can suggest some medical situations for you, but I thought I'd add my two cents. Good luck.

[kveeti]

I bought 3 otos on July 29 and they are all still alive and well, but I agree with Winnie on their behavior, they still freak out easily. Mine also eat zucchini.

You do not mention, does your q-tank have plants, either real or fake, whatever? They do not like to be out in the open, for sure, maybe that is why they are so stressed.

[alexv1n]

You do not mention, does your q-tank have plants, either real or fake, whatever? They do not like to be out in the open, for sure, maybe that is why they are so stressed.

It's a small (5.5g) tank that has no plants, however I built a small cave out of stones so they can hide...

[Winnie]

You know what? I think you should just go ahead and move them to their permanent residence. I think they probably feel exposed where they are. There are assorted opinions about Q. tanks - I think with ottos you might as well put them where they are gonna be. Mine never approach the rocks/cave; they head for plants or the glass or even the glass behind the filter or heater.

[alexv1n]

Winnie,

I'd gladly do that but I'm concerned about the possible disease they might have. Especially the one with the red tail. It does look inflamed even though the skin is OK. The reddish tissue appears to be under the skin. The whole tail half of the body is considerably reddish and appear to be slighly swollen. Too bad I don't have a digital camera. It would have been so much easier to show this. I decided to get a photo of the fish from a web site and just color it to resemble what I have. See the attachment (image courtesy http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/goto.html).

Also the previous deformities of their spines frighten me somehow (all the fish are "straight" now :)) I just fear they might have tuberculosis or something. I just don't want to infect my main (55g) tank.

[kveeti]

Somehow, if you want to keep them, you'll have to make them more comfortable in their q-tank. Get some dark paper and cover the sides of the tank as well (assuming the back already is). Maybe find something else to put in the tank for hiding, something tall/vertical. You could buy just one tall bushy plastic plant and place it right in front center. If you bought some black plastic needlepoint canvas (Wal-Mart, craft stores), you could make a lean-to against the back wall for them to hide behind. You could still see and watch them around the plant and through the holes in the canvas.

I don't really know anything about the redness, sorry, but that was a great job on colouring the picture.

[alexv1n]

I have already made some minor changes to the tank. I added a bush of Ceratophyllum submersum. I know that's probably not the kind of plant otos would appreciate but I had it spare. I did have the back glass covered with black paper.

I have a 15W incandescent light which might be too bright for the small tank and the fish, so I'll replace it with the original incandescent hood with one bulb (25W).

I also have an undergravel filter I pulled from a 1 gal "kid" tank, filled it with wool and use so far as a filter media in q-tank. So, it's black plastic that covers approx 1/4 of the bottom with the tube and airstone, so the otos use it to hide as well.

Maybe I'll dig a wide-leaved plant from the main tank and drop it in the Q.

Anyway, two fish behave OK (including the "red tail" one) but the one I added last doesn't seem to feel too well. It frequently rests on its side, sometimes swims in spiral or even spins along its head-tail axis while swimming forward (observed this today). Looks kind of disoriented.

They try to eat the remnants of the brown algae I had in the tank and today even ate some dried algae tablet.

I don't think they have TB because all have straighten up and have no "broken spine syndrom". My guess is that they were just too stressed out and their muscles were tense making the spine bend weirdly (plus all their fins were sticking out to extremes). Now they look much more relaxed but still not quite healthy enough...

I'll observe them a little while and will let you know if I find out anything.

In meanwhile, do you have any suggestions on their diet, frequency of feeding, etc. I have never had herbivorous fish before, so pardon my ignorance.

[alexv1n]

Ok, sad news.

Today in the morning the "red tail" oto was dead. I had a pronounced sharp bent spine. I guess he was just able to keep his body straight when alive. He must have some spinal injury after all (hence the swollen red body). Parts of the fishes body and eyes were covered with some kind of white slime, I'm not sure what it was.

Another oto (the "disoriented" one) was still disoriented, swimming randomly, having difficulty staying afloat and constantly falling to the bottom lending on its side or even belly up. I decided to euthanize it to prevent from suffering.

So, I'm left with only one oto which so far seems OK, but who knows what happens tomorrow :(

[kveeti]

Sorry about your oto losses. Here's a dumb question, but I wonder if the one remaining is the last one you acclimated slower? They do like to be in groups so I don't know if you want to try a couple more, if it's worth one more stab at aggravation for you.

Mine like to nibble on zucchini. I boil and cool half-circles to make it quite soft, then anchor them with a veggie clip. I recently tried a piece of broccoli stem prepared the same and they were hanging all over it when I turned the lights on in the morning, before they went bonkers (OMG! The light's on! Run for your lives!). Frequency depends on availability of algae in your tank, I guess. I have 3 and I supplement twice a week, once with a small piece of algae tablet and the other with the veggie.

[alexv1n]

Here's a dumb question, but I wonder if the one remaining is the last one you acclimated slower?

No, strangely enough the "disoriented" one was the one I introduced "properly" (or so I thought). The survivor is one of the first three. Good thing is that it's still alive today and seems to be doing OK :cool:

It doesn't eat that much though. I put half an algae tablet yesterday, and it is still there (completely disintegrated). I'll remove it now and try with the zucchini. How long do you boil it?

[kveeti]

In a small cup with water, just a minute or less on high in the microwave to soften, then soak in cold water to cool it. The piece I use is about a 1-1/2 inch circle, 3/4 inch thick, cut in half. I just have a bunch of these cut up and stored in the freezer.

Some people do not boil them, but mine like them softer, won't eat them otherwise, spoiled fish. I put it in their tank every Tuesday evening and take out any remaining on Thursday morning. Just have my routines....

[alexv1n]

kveeti,

Thanks a lot for your help. I'll definitely make use of it next time I decide to get the otos. But I guess not this time... Today I discovered my last oto dead. I'm not sure what caused this, but he didn't eat much lately.

I didn't even turn on the light in the q-tank so it didn't feel too stressed. Anyway, it's over now. I guess I'll have to learn a lot about keeping these fish... :(

[anonapersona]

Tt might be wise to test the fish store water in the bag to see how it is different from yours. GH could be wildly different, or there may be salt in the tank. Just a wild guess. Both of those would affect osmotic pressure and would be not unlike opening a window in an airplane.

anona, no expert but ready to offer an opinon

[alexv1n]

I decided to give otos another try. My algae eating shrimp couldn't keep up with the algea (especially on the glass), so I thought there gotta be a way :)

Anyway, I got another 6 otos (thinking that some of them may die anyway) and put them in the q-tank (5.5 gal). This time, I bought 2 bushy plastic plants which occupied about 20% of the volume of the tank. Also I replaced the bright fluorescent light with a single 25 W incandescent bulb to give more subdued lighting.

When I brought the new fish in, I acclimatized them by slowly dripping the aquarium water into their original container for about 1.5 hours. After I put them in, they seemed to be active with no signs of stress. They immediately took to vacuuming the aquairum.

Several days later after noticing no ill effects on the fish I transferred them into the main tank (again, after 1 hour water dripping excercise). They too seemed to have accepted their new environment happily and went straight to their cleaning duties.

A couple more days later all 6 fish are still alive and kicking. The plants and the glass are almost free of algae and the otos are still working hard. Anyway, I think this time I did it right and the fish will reward me with years of life and enjoyment.

Thanks everyone who gave me their suggestions. Much appreciated.

[kveeti]

Thank you for letting us know your experience. I'd be interested in how they do in the long run. My original 3 were introduced as yours were, slowly, and were just fine. Suddenly, a week ago, one just up and died, no prior warning or indication of being ill. Oh, well.

[OrionGirl]

I know I am slow joining the thread, but there's a good deal of information on otos at http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ There is strong indications that the primary problem with these fish that they spend too much time in high stress, low food environments (ie, shipping, bare tanks with no plants) and the bacteria in their gut dies off, causing them to slowly starve, and be susceptible to a wide range of other problems as a result of their weakened state. Oto's introduced into a healthy planted tank, or a tank with other healthy fish, has a much better chance of surviving. I won't buy an oto that hasn't been in the store for less than a week.

[alexv1n]

Just wanted to update you on my oto situation...

After several days of being in good health and appetite, I noticed a couple while spots on some of the otos. They were on the body and fins. I immediately removed all the otos from the main tank and put them into the q-tank and treated them with Quick Cure (malachite green + formalin) for two days. The ich spots have disappeared but the fish seemed distressed and very lethargic. Completely stopped eating and just hanging attached to the glass without moving most of the time. Then I noticed signs of fin rot. I immediately treated the q-tank with Maracyn (erythromycin).

Unfortunately fin rot had progressed in one fish and it died the other day. The rest of the otos (now 5 of them) seemed to improve. Their fins remain almost intact. Anyway, they stayed lethargic for several days. I then noticed that their scales seemed to protrude. Almost on all of them. I thought dropsy but there was no sign of swelling or any other symptoms I could see. Maybe it was my eyes but I think originally the fish looked very smooth as if it had no scales at all. But now I can see it very clearly. Anyway, several days later the fish started to eat a little bit and became more active. Now they seem almost normal. I'm not sure if the scales still protrude that much or I'm just being paranoid.

Anyway, I'll be watching them for several more day and if everything's OK, I'll move them back in the main tank. My guess I just got a pretty healthy batch of fish this time. Any other would have died already, after all they had pulled through...

I'll let you know what happens next.

Oh, almost forgot. About feeding otos. What do you feed them when they are in a (almost) clean tank? I tried to give them zucchini (slightly boiled) but they refuse to eat it. I tried cucumbers as well with no success. It could be because of illness but now that they started to eat algea (I put some items from the main tank which were covered with green alea slightly) they still care less for the supplements (there isn't that much algea after all. They've eaten almost everything already within several hours). So, what do I give them before I can put the fish in the main tank?

[OrionGirl]

Algae tabs/wafers are a good substitute, and keep trying other veggies. How long did you leave the zucchini in?

[alexv1n]

I left zucchini for about a day. I tried that three times and every time I had to throw them away.

I also use the "Hikari Tropical Sinking Wafers" which my otos don't seem to care much for. I was sure that these were what people referred to as "Algae wafers" but after doing a web search I found that Hikari also makes an "explicit" algae wafers which I will try next. Thanks for the pointers.

[OrionGirl]

Leave the zucchini in a bit longer. I freeze the zucchini, then thaw it and put it in, and everyone starts eating right away, but when I first started offering it, it took them a day or two to figure out that is was food.

Yep, the sinking wafers Hikari makes tend to be a bit meatier than otos prefer. Sorry--will have to remember to specify the algae tabs vs the sinking wafers in the future!

[alexv1n]

Thanks. Will try that. I just bought the algae wafers and will see how they like it.

As for the zucchini, won't it foul the water if I leave it there for two days? I have a fairly small q-tank (5.5 g) and I have 5 otos in there right now. After a day, the zucchini seems to get covered with slight slime (bacteria?). I will still be changing water regularly and watching it...

[OrionGirl]

I've had zucchini in the tank for 3-4 days before with no change in water quality. I wouldn't worry much about it getting slimy--that's pretty normal. I wouldn't leave it in more than 3 days if they haven't started consuming it. Also--leave the peel on. There are some fish that prefer the peels, and oto's might be in that group.

[SnakeIce]

I have had success with the various batches of ottos that I have gotten as in no deaths in the first month
here is my list of requirements before I will purchase some.

I let the algae go on the bottom and at least one side in a new tank that doesnt have any untill there is a heavy patch 2 inches accross and lighter all around. in a older tank there is more general coverage around but still some needs to be left.

in the store the ottos should be active-swimming about, looking for food... some can be resting but the general impression should be activity

the bellys should be full(females are naturally rounder) and more inportant note the area just behind the belly and tail section. that should not be big belly-skinny after but filled in.

they do like company but let the food supply determine how many you get. when my 20 gal was new and the above was met two ottos was about what the tank could support. Now after a year and a half I could get a third

get small ottos. they grow fast, seem to adjust better and live longer in your tank. once they reach adult hood they dont learn there surroundings in a new tank very well. I have one that grew up in one tank, moved it to a larger tank with another-after a while thought it was on its way out, wasn't looking good.. moved it back to the first tank and now it is doing well.

they don't do well with vary many snails in the tank. I guess the arn't very selective about what they eat and snail poop does not go through them very well

[alexv1n]

My guess is that the last batch of otos I got was just very healthy. The remaining 5 otos pulled through the treatment and now they are back in the main tank keeping busy with the algae that grew without their presence. They are very active and appear to have a very good apetite.

Too bad that the 6th fish died but at least I know it wasn't from a "mysterious" cause :)

[alexv1n]

Just to update you on my otos, they are still doing great without any noticeable problems or side effects. As usual, they are keeping busy and the tank is shining. :)

I have a feeling they'll live :D

[kveeti]

Nice to have an update, thanks. Now you'll be the one with some answers for the next person who is new to otos.

[ROLLIN]

Try feeding them some wardley algae wafers.

[alexv1n]

Ok, just wanted to let you all know that all my 5 otos are still alive and kicking. They eat well and keep busy.

I guess the success of keeping otos is really to find a good fish initially. Afterwards, they will take care of themselves.

Here is a photo of one of my fish. As you can see he just recently ate some algae and now digesting it :)