Question on Dosing Mg + Ca

[Roan Art]

I've been picking up more and more dosing of individual ferts of late and seeing a lot of improvement in my plants. LOTS of K and PO4 has kept the algae at bay. It hasn't done away with the BGA, but it's keeping it in check, surprisingly.

Now I want to try dosing Mg and Ca to see if my reds will improve. I have CaCO3 and MnSO4 and read in the hardness thread of a 4:1 ratio, but I didn't really see what the dose per 20g should be?

I did dose 1 tsp CaCO3 to ¼ tsp of MnSO4 in my 75gs -- is that too much? The water gets REALLY cloudy and takes a while for it to clear up. I was worried about the fish at first, but dang if they just shoot through the "clouds" and start spawning behavior! *ALL* three tanks? Different types of rainbowfish? Are magnesium and calcium some sort of aphrodisiac to rainbowfish or something? ;) My water must be way too soft for these guys.

Anyhow, if someone can gimme an idea of what I should be dosing, I'd appreciate it. Tap water is as thus:

GH 6
Ca 40
Mg 1.7 (calculated)

MAN! pH 8.2!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck is the water company DOING? My tap water has gone from 7.4 to 8.2 pH. Sheesh! Chloramine gone, chlorine only now. Nitrates 0, down from 7ppm. KH 4, up from 1-2 dKH (at least THAT is an improvement), PO4 2.0 not much change there.

I need to get a water report.

Roan

[Hannys_Papa]

According to the fertilator thats only 2ppm of Ca and .5 ppm of Mg (i assumed ~60G water volume) ?
I put almost that much in my 10G. Our water is about the same (2d kH, 6d Gh) from the tap. (well the kH WAS similar)

EDIT: I have to add i use CaCl2 - not CaCo3. I don't have any clouding when i add CaCl2, MgSO4. Only the MgSO4 tends to flake a little and takes a while to dissolve.

[carpguy]

Hi Roan,

Like Hannys_papa I went over to the Fertilator (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php) .

Those are light doses.

Fertilator has MgSO4.7H20 which I'm assuming is similar to your MnSO4. Chuck's Magnesium Sulfate turns out the same numbers as the Fertilator.

I'd guess you want to leave your Ca alone and dose about 4 teaspoons of MgSO4 in your 75. That'd give you about 40:10 ppm. No?

[djlen]

Roan - I will give you a quick history of my experiment with calcium.
I went for years not dosing any extra at all.
There was a ground-swell of calcium dosing about a year ago and it seemed as though everyone started dosing it.
I was talking with Tom Barr and he recommended dosing Equilibrium. I figured I'd give it a shot and tried it, seeing no change in plant growth or color over a 6 month period.
I've always dosed Mg heavily because it's been good to me and so I started playing with ratios of Ca/Mg and increased the Ca (CaCl) incrementally until I got to a bit over the 4:1 ratio.
During this period a couple of my plant species that occasionally go dormant, did so and I didn't think much of it. I then noticed the Crypts. in all my tanks were not looking crisp and/or waxy which are my signs of good health.
Over time I came to realize that the Ca dosing was probably negatively affecting just about everything. I started cutting back on the Ca and everything started to improve. All of my 'dormant' species came out of 'dormancy' and the tanks look better than ever. I'm still dosing Ca, but only at 1:1 with Mg at this point and it seems like a proper mix for me.
This has just been my experience with this nutrient.

Len

[Roan Art]

Roan - I will give you a quick history of my experiment with calcium.
I went for years not dosing any extra at all.
There was a ground-swell of calcium dosing about a year ago and it seemed as though everyone started dosing it.
I was talking with Tom Barr and he recommended dosing Equilibrium. I figured I'd give it a shot and tried it, seeing no change in plant growth or color over a 6 month period.
I've always dosed Mg heavily because it's been good to me and so I started playing with ratios of Ca/Mg and increased the Ca (CaCl) incrementally until I got to a bit over the 4:1 ratio.
During this period a couple of my plant species that occasionally go dormant, did so and I didn't think much of it. I then noticed the Crypts. in all my tanks were not looking crisp and/or waxy which are my signs of good health.
Over time I came to realize that the Ca dosing was probably negatively affecting just about everything. I started cutting back on the Ca and everything started to improve. All of my 'dormant' species came out of 'dormancy' and the tanks look better than ever. I'm still dosing Ca, but only at 1:1 with Mg at this point and it seems like a proper mix for me.
This has just been my experience with this nutrient.

Len

Len,

Thank you very much for posting. Do you happen to know what your Ca was before you increased it?

The reason I decided to try increasing my Ca, "in tune" with the Mg I have increased, was based on the information in the thread that Daveedka and Reiverix started:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65367&highlight=hardness

and also because of the differences I noticed between my CO2 injected tank and my one non-CO2 injected tank:

All of my rainbow tanks have Vallisneria var. Americana, which looks almost exactly like Vallisneria natans -- the broad leaf version found in PNG, not the narrow leafed one -- in them.

All of those tanks, except one, are CO2 injected. They all, except that same one, have crushed coral/aragonite in them to stablize the KH. The coral, of course, releases calcium carbonate into the water as it dissolves (correct me there if I'm wrong, please).

I've measured the calcium in all the tanks and I have been tracking it. The two tanks with the highest CO2 in them have the most calcium in them -- around 160ppm. The vals in those two tanks are very broad leaved, as they should be, and a wonderful green color. All the plants in those two tanks look really nice, but could be nicer. They definitely look better than in the other tanks.

The vals in the tanks with less CO2 are not as broad leaved and are paler in color -- around 60-100ppm Ca. Edit: I just noticed now that the newer leaves in those tanks are crinkling and twisting like the ones below.

The vals in the tank with no CO2 and no crushed coral have started to grow very transparent, and in a "cork screw" shape, very similar to what John was describing in one of his posts. They look sick. Even the older leaves in that tank have developed ripples in the edges of the leaves. The calcium in there as is with the tap water, 40ppm.

I want to get my calcium in all the tanks up to at least 160ppm, but I don't want to do it by using CO2 and crushed coral.

In fact, the reason I chose CaCO3 was because it was the closest to aragonite and I like the idea of keeping what's already there and working well.

To be honest I don't know what the difference really is, benefit wise, between calcium carbonate and calcium chloride.

I do have a couple of cyperus helferi in the high Ca tanks, but haven't noticed any detremental effects from the Ca.

Comments?

PS: I also use Barr's Booster, which is why the Ca in the tanks is running on the "high" side. I tried Seachems but I can never get that stuff to dissolve properly and am fed up with it. I don't like loose particles floating around my tanks.

Roan

[Roan Art]

Yah, it was rather a low dose, but geez, that's an AWFUL lot of stuff to dump in a tank like that :)

Guess I'm still a little squeamy on some aspects of the ferts.

Roan

[IceH2O]

Others have named the fertilator but no one has linked you yet.

Let me be the 1st.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php

Per 20 gallons:

CaCO3 -- 4.5 -4.75 tsps to add about 30 ppm
CaCL2 -- 1.5 tsps will add about 30 ppm

MgSO4.7H2O -- about 4/5 of a tsp will add 5 ppm

According to the Fertilator which is sponsered by Greg Watson:

Ca should be between 10 -30 ppm
Mg should be between 2-5 ppm

That puts the ratio at 5:1 at lower levels and 6:1 at the higher levels.

I take half a gallon of water out of my tank. Then mix each fert into the water one at a time, find they dissolve better that way. The CaCl2 dissolves alot quicker than the CaCO3 and you use less of it. My ferts added all at once don't cloud the water a bit.

[joephys]

Mn is a trace element, isn't too much of that a bad thing for plants?

[Roan Art]

I just sent Greg an email asking for clarification on that. I ordered MgSO4, Magnesium Sulfate and he sent me MnSO4, Manganese Sulfate. He doesn't have that listed on his site.

What's the difference?

Roan

[chefkeith]

'Manganese...A lot of people don't even know what that is.'


-Carl Spackler, Caddyshack.

[daveedka]

Manganeese is a different element (Obviously) and is contained at appropriat levels in most trace mixes. I have some and dosed it but it made no difference. Magnesium is necessary in much higher quantities. While I am a huge fan of Gregg Watson, I do not by my magnesium from him MgSo4 is Epsom salts. I can get a 5 pound carton at Meijers for next to nothing. Go get some Epsom Salts and use that.

CaCo3 is calcium Carbonate the same as your crushed coral. It will increase Calcium as well as Kh when used. CaCl Calcium chloride will increase your calcium without effecting your Kh. Additionally CaCl will dissolve much faster and not add the cloudiness that The calcium Carbonate does.
I use both because I can get the Kh I want Long before I get the calcium I need. My tanks are at about 100-120 ppm Ca, but I am still struggling with plants. Calcium has definately improved my plants, but I have been hesitant to take it too High. If you are having good luck at 160 ppm I may want to raise mine some as well when time for proper testing permits.

Dave

[joephys]

My plant book says that it's (Mn) usually present in sufficient amounts in tap water, but it doesn't say that over dosing is bad, which it does say about some other trace elements (I suppose you can take that for what its worth).

Mg is a macronutrient so it needs a pretty good amount of that. It also says though, that if there is too much it can hinder uptake of other nutrients, espically potassium, and that potassium deficiency is often due to too much Mg in the water.

Source: Encyclopedia of Aquarium plants, Peter Hiscock.

[djlen]

I agree with Dave in that the CaCl does dissolve much faster and is easier to work with. Based on my experience I'm not using much of it anymore.
In my experience it is much easier to get the calcium to dissolve if it is mixed and poured separately from the Mg.
As you can see, many of us have much divergent outcomes with this element. It will be interesting to hear how it affects your tanks.

Len

[Roan Art]

Manganeese is a different element (Obviously) and is contained at appropriat levels in most trace mixes. I have some and dosed it but it made no difference.Greg replied that either my stuff was labled incorrectly, or I was accidentally shipped a wrong bag. He is resending on Monday.

Magnesium is necessary in much higher quantities. While I am a huge fan of Gregg Watson, I do not by my magnesium from him MgSo4 is Epsom salts. I can get a 5 pound carton at Meijers for next to nothing. Go get some Epsom Salts and use that.I *was* using that, but the Epsom Salts crystals at my grocery store are huge and a royal pita to measure and dissolve. I had to use a pestal and mortar to get them down to a managable size just to measure them out properly.

Greg's Mg is only .85 per pound, actually cheaper than the grocery store, and since I already had an order in, I added some to my cart.

CaCo3 is calcium Carbonate the same as your crushed coral. It will increase Calcium as well as Kh when used. CaCl Calcium chloride will increase your calcium without effecting your Kh. Additionally CaCl will dissolve much faster and not add the cloudiness that The calcium Carbonate does.
I use both because I can get the Kh I want Long before I get the calcium I need. Excellent -- so my reasoning for using that was correct. I've ordered some CaCl from Greg already and will mix as you do. If I don't get the desired result, I will probably retain the crushed coral and just use CaCl.

My tanks are at about 100-120 ppm Ca, but I am still struggling with plants. Calcium has definately improved my plants, but I have been hesitant to take it too High. If you are having good luck at 160 ppm I may want to raise mine some as well when time for proper testing permits.I'm going to start taking pictures of the vals this weekend.

The 20g tank with no CO2 is going to be my experimental tank. I'm going to get the calcium levels up on par with my "good" tanks *before* I start adding CO2. I want to make sure it's the calcium level and not the lack of CO2 that is causing the twisty, sick-looking leaves. Lighting is around 3.25wpg and I leave the lights on for about 8-10 hours or so. It sits on my desk beside my monitor.

If I see any improvement in the leaves, then I'll start CO2 injection.

Roan

[IceH2O]

I realize you guys have way more light than I do.

But what PPM do you raise your : ( recommended )

Nitrate ( 10-20 )
phosphate (.5-2 )
pottasium ( 10-20 )
calcium ( 10-30 )
Magnesium ( 2-5 )
Iron (.1 )

If you're raising Ca to be 160 ppm then you'd have to carry Mg up, and I'd suppose all the others should follow. How do you figure the ratios? Just in examples I've read at low levels Ca to Mg is 5:1 but as Ca goes up the ratio does also, higher levels are 8:1. 160 ppm is over 5 times the recommended level so would you suppose the ratio would be closer to 15:1 ?

I'm guessing most of you go high and then drop down till you see the level at which they start to suffer, then jump back up a level.

I'd still like to know what levels you guys are at so maybe I can flirt around. Like Roan, I'm a little nervous about adding much ferts. I add close to the high levels recommended now and some plants look great while others look like they could use some help.

NOT meant to be a hijacking!

[Roan Art]

Ice (and Others)

Not ignoring your advice/replies! Just working on some stuff and trying to get my tanks in order. Been sick with the flu and behind on my water changes! I haven't changed out two of my rainbow tanks in 6 days! Okay, don't laugh, but that's how I am :)

I also have three tanks that are CO2-less because of a manifold problem and I HAVE to get the CO2 running again before the algae finds out.

Soon as I get caught up there, I'll get caught up here.

Roan

[Roan Art]

'Manganese...A lot of people don't even know what that is.'


-Carl Spackler, Caddyshack.
ROFL!
I don't remember that line from Caddy Shack. What was it in reference to? And don't say "manganese, of course!" :D

Roan

[Roan Art]

I agree with Dave in that the CaCl does dissolve much faster and is easier to work with. Based on my experience I'm not using much of it anymore.
In my experience it is much easier to get the calcium to dissolve if it is mixed and poured separately from the Mg.
This is good to know. Thanks, I'll mix separately

As you can see, many of us have much divergent outcomes with this element. It will be interesting to hear how it affects your tanks.
I think it probably comes down to the types of plants in the tank. You've a lot of crypts, I think? And Dave and John have a lot of red stem plants, like I do. It's mostly the reds I want to bring the colors out on and they've indicated success with higher Ca dosing.

I like crypts, but you pointed out to me that Cryptocorne ciliata is a low light plant (although I read otherwise), and based on the growth rate I was getting, you are probably correct. I opted to remove it since the darn thing just grows too big to shade in most cases.

I'm just surprised none of those crypts melted on me.

Roan

[daveedka]

I don't remember that line from Caddy Shack. What was it in reference to? And don't say "manganese, of course


I believe chevy Chase Was playing through the apartment, and Carl Was explaining what he was studying so he could become head Greenskeeper someday. It was somewhere between the shtgunning the "fatty" and hitting the bottle. Either way it was one of the better scenes in Caddy shack.


Dave

[Roan Art]

Oh geez, I remember now! Been so long since I saw that movie :)

Thanks, Dave

Roan

[imhandy2]

I'm just surprised none of those crypts melted on me.

Roan


Roan or anyone, when crypts melt, is that due to a potassium or calcium deficiency. The reason I am asking is that I am also getting the same affect with my tiger lotus, starts out as pin holes then spreads, some leaves on a small lotus that I uprooted and repositioned seems to be not growing or growing very-very slowly and laying on the substrate lifeless.

Any Ideas what is deficient when hygro leaves get the twisties?


Terry.

[daveedka]

Crypt melt is the result of looking at them crosseyed. No really Crypts do not like changes in anything, and will melt when things are changed regardless. Some folks have almost no trouble while other have a lot of problems. it's just the nature of Crypts.

Pottassium defeciency will cause piin holes, and Tiger lotus can be a picky plant IMO. I find that if anything disturbs a lotus it will melt away. If the roots are well planted it will come back, but if they are exposed or messed with they will die off completely. This is just my experience with tiger lotus, and i seem to have more trouble than most folks.
Dave

[Roan Art]

ROFL! I was just going to say pretty much the same thing, Dave :)

I pulled a crypt out of my 75g and threw it in another 75. It floated there for a week and then I planted it. It grew. Dunno why, but it did. I abused it. It should have melted and it didn't. Maybe it didn't out of spite. Dunno ;)

Reminds me, I have pictures of the twisted vals I want to post. Stay tuned

Roan

[daveedka]

This has always struck me as odd, but Crypts do not seem to melt when floating around in the tank. But when you plant them, and then change something they melt very well. It's another one of the wonderful oddities of crypts I guess.
Dave

[Roan Art]

These are my current readings. I've very lightly added some DIY CO2 to this 20g:

pH 7.1
KH 3
Ca 40ppm
GH 10
Mg 19
CO2 8ppm

These are the twisted and pale vals:
http://bowheads.org/roan/twistedvals.jpg
http://bowheads.org/roan/twistedvals2.jpg

These are my aromatica plants in that tank. The first one is how they looked before I started increasing the Ca and Mg. that particular plant is starting to show a LOT more red now:
http://bowheads.org/roan/palearomatica.jpg

And these two looked like the one above, but these are a week after ensuring upping the Mg and ensuring Ca is never below 40ppm:
http://bowheads.org/roan/redaromatica.jpg

http://bowheads.org/roan/baby_wanam_4.jpg

I'm going to start increasing the Ca this week and see if it helps the vals out.

Roan

[imhandy2]

When I started dosing CaCl(calcium cloride), I started because I was getting the twisties on my alternanthera reineckii. At the time If O remember correctly from the tap my Ca = 20mg/l. I slowly upped it to 120 and I was still getting the twisties. I since trashed the plant due to frusteration and it was just a messy stem. Looking back maybe I should have bumped up my Mg a bit? I now keep my Ca at around 60 and my Mg around 40 and now thinking of dropping my Ca to around maybe 30 ish and see how my crypts fair out.


Terry.

[Roan Art]

I ended up taking a pair of scissors to the vals a few days ago. I decided that rather than have them try to fix the twisted ones -- some of the really pale ones were melting -- I would cut all of those off and try to get the plants to concentrate on growing new leaves. I do see some new leaves sprouting and they look good so far, however it isn't until they get about 1-2" tall that they start to twist and melt. I'm going to up the DIY CO2 in this tank in a couple of days. I need to get the kids to drink some more Gatorade :)

The aromatica in the tank is awesome. The water sprite in there is total heaven and my elatine triandra has TOTALLY gone wild. I started with maybe 4 little plantlets (hard to get and expensive) and three of them have multiplied and are taking up a 1x1" space each in the gravel. The fourth one has finally started to spread out a bit. I thought I was gonna lose those guys.

As an aside, I've been very religious over the past week with my BGA ridden 75g Boesemani tank. I've been dosing Odd and Even (EI) and I'm VERY happy to report that the BGA is totally in check and not spreading. In fact, although it may be just wishful thinking, it almost seems to be receding somewhat. I've been trying really hard not to test the nitrates et al in that tank. I'm afraid I might swoon if I do :) Can't be too bad in there, though, I've three new Goo obo fry hopping around the bottom :D

Roan