Increasing Water Movement

[125gJoe]

I finally found this site again!

Here's a DIY project I may try sometime for increased water flow.

Here's the link: Increased Water Movement (http://www.geocities.com/vatoelvis/Movement.html)


Talk about no 'dead zones'! Think of the variations of PVC tube set-up.....

[Skittyfish]

Sounds good, wonder how it would work in an already planted tanK? How hard would it be to put in an existing one? I'll have to think on this one, I already have a powerhead with a reverse flow. HMMMMMM.....

[superstein61]

Joe, as you probably recall, I built one of these based on that article - and I like it a lot. I did mine a little different - its described here:

http://www.speakeasy.org/~jfd61/fish/fish2.htm

But same concept. I know Luca and I had a long DIY thread on this a month or two ago as well . Good luck

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by superstein61
Joe, as you probably recall, I built one of these based on that article - and I like it a lot. I did mine a little different - its described here:

http://www.speakeasy.org/~jfd61/fish/fish2.htm.... That's great! I like the pic of how hidden the PVC tube is! For fish that need extra water flow - this is the way to go! (at least in my opinion).

Someone mentioned that they saw pics of the system, and drawings of the layout on the bottom of the tank, but lost the website. I thought I'd re-post it....

:)

[RTR]

A few minor quibbles, but the general idea is not bad.

Current in the tank does not in any way guarantee freedom from protein/bacterial films on the water surface. I have very high current tanks which develop films. To avoid the film with water movement, you must break the surface.

The author is confused in saying:

"The fifth reason why we should pay attention to water movement is because moving water carries oxygen to the denitrifying bacteria in your tank?s substrate. It?s these bacteria that are responsible for the breakdown of harmful waste products (i.e., ammonia and nitrite). Their breaking down ammonia puts it into a form that allows your plants to use it (i.e., nitrate)."

Denitrifying bacteria do not change ammonia and nitrite to nitrate. Denirtifying bactera reduce nitrate to nitrite, ammonia, and nitrogen gas. Nitrifying bacteria oxidize ammonia and nitrite to nitrate. These nitrification bacteria may be at and very near the surface of the substrate, but their oxygen demands are too great to exist more than millimeters below the surface in other than UG/RFUG situations. Denitrifying bacteria are deep in the substrate, where other than in UG/RFUG situations, the oxygen tension is very, very low - these are anaerobic bacteria, oxygen is toxic to them.

Plants do not normally flourish in tanks with strong surface distruption, as it does blow off dissolved CO2. Submerse plants generally require dissolved CO2 as their carbon source - and carbon is more than 40% of their dry weight.

The fourth reason is equally debatable. I am very conservative and old-fashioned on many aspects of tank-keeping. I do not believe in "artifically increasing" the carrying capacity of the tank by obligate aeration. I live in an area subject to frequent, usually but not always brief, power outages. If you have artifically increased the carrying capacity of your tank with aeration and you are away from the house when the power goes out, you just well may return to dead fish. Even if not that extreme, you will return home to crisis. No thank you, not in my fish tanks.

But the basic point is that in most tanks (not discus or a number of other fish), current is likely to be less than optimum. This is in part why I multifilter all my tanks, and why I frequently customize my canister return spraybars - you can set tanks with no dead zones. Even in planted tanks current is important - it helps disrupt the boundry layer effect and delivers nutrients to the plants.

[125gJoe]

RTR, thanks for commenting...
I'm not sure about nitrifying and the 'chemistry' involved. I thought, for some this appears to be a great way to move water -- especially for those fish that love high current flow.
Reading what you said informed me that the author may be 'guessing' at his ideas on the matter. I did not look into it as thorough, but rather liked the water flow idea... :)

[RTR]

No Joe, I don't think he is guessing, he has the correct concept, he just got his words reversed or maybe mentally merged on nitrification/denitrification. He may not be clear on the bacterial types and where they live, but few hobbyists know or care about that anyway - just a few nitpickers.

If he is guessing at anything, he may be inexperienced on plants and CO2 - which with his mention and pics on African Cichlids would not be a shock. The pictures on the article page show plastic plants. Very few folks keep the Val-bed rift lake fish in habitat style tanks, Most of the familiar Rift fish are not very plant friendly. I also suspect he equates current and water movement with surface disruption - only planted tank folks are careful to distinguish between the two.

His ideas are good and workable, and definitely an improvement (IMHO anyway) on many hobby tanks. I don't want to give the impression that his stuff is not workable and potentially positive - it is. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Whether he knows anything about the nitrogen cycle or not, he is on solid ground that appropriate water movement is all to the good.

He could have added another positive point to more current - it suspends debris for the mechanical filters to pick up for easy removal.

[125gJoe]

RTR, Thanks..

On your last mention - "He could have added another positive point to more current - it suspends debris for the mechanical filters to pick up for easy removal."

Is a good thing with the 'extra' water movement. At times I wonder if I have enough flow in my Discus tank..(?)

[RTR]

Be careful with Discus - which is why I specifically mentioned them in my first post - they do not like much current. I'd skip any thought of jets with them, just well diffused mass flows.

[Woozledad]

RTR, I'm sorry if you've posted this before and I've missed, but you mention you have modified your return spray bar for you planted tanks....How so?? I have a canister filter on it's way for my newly planted 29g tank and I'm interested in your thoughts on how best to install on a heavily planted tank....

It's an XP1 Filster and I've never used a canister filter before and am new to the hobby, so you know...

[RTR]

Woozledad - I probably have as many customized spraybars as stock items. My LFS is careful to stock or special-order Eheim componenets, so blank tubing in the proper sizes is available to me easily.

Stock spraybars may also be customized - made shorter (increases presure and current in front of the bar), or doubled with a tee-coupling at the end of the return line such that the two bars stretch most of the length of the tank along the back (cuts the current more than in half, and spreads it over a wider area - the same total flow, gentler and more wide-spread). The return line itself may be Y-coupled, with two shorter vertical spraybar returns in opposire corners of the tank. The variants are open-ended, limited by imagination.

Stock spraybars may also be customized by redrilling their holes - either uniformly larger (same total flow, reduced current) or by adding more holes (drill in-between the existing) or full custom by starting with a blank tube and have small holes near the input end, graduating sizes along the length to even out the flow over the whole length. Because these are dynamic systems, pressure is highest at the input end, drops along the length, and the output per hole does the same. There are endless variants available here as well - lots of excuses to play with the power tools and in the water without setting new tanks.:cool:

Because I multifilter all my tanks, I am usually aiming for a circular current around the periphery of the tank (as viewed from above), supplemented so that there are no dead spots for debris build-up and that the plants have some current to deliver nutrients but are not in a rip-tide to beat them to death. All of that wants doing with minimal surface disturbance.

[kuhli]

Here is a pic of my 30 gallon rivertank for hillstream loaches and dojo loaches.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/kuhli/loachpostpix/rivertank.jpg

http://www.members.shaw.ca/kuhli/loachpostpix/rivertanksml2.jpg

[superstein61]

Nice Tank Kuhli. One of these days I want to set up a river tank for loaches as well. I had been thinking of that type of setup. Is that one powerhead powerful enough?