Ph balance and phosphates

[japeters]

Currently I have a 120 gal tank that I'm trying to balance its PH (7.0) and lower its phosphate level (after months of neglect).

I am looking for recommendations for PH lower product that is safe for plants and not phosphate based?

[OrionGirl]

Water changes with water that is at a lower pH, or even the ideal pH. The water changes will also replenish the hardness levels, which are most likely very low and the reason for the drop in pH.

[JSchmidt]

Actually, O-girl, I think the problem is that pH is higher than the poster wants, and he/she is trying to lower pH without adding phosphates (as many/most of the neutral regulators do).

Short of getting into expensive options (e.g., reverse osmosis), it is not very easy to lower pH stably. If the water has any carbonate hardness at all, it is buffered against changes in pH. As you add an acidic substance, the buffer takes it up until there is no buffering and then pH can be changed. Unfortunately, that tends to make pH susceptible to rapid and difficult-to-control swings that can be quite hard on your fish.

Are you certain you need to lower you pH? What sort of pH do you get from a sample of tap water aged overnight? What sort of fish are you trying to keep?

Jim

[OrionGirl]

Oh sheesh--I got interrupted in the middle of posting and confused myself. Sorry--ignore my previous response. The pH in my tank will fluctuate if I lapse in water changes, as the hardness gets soaked up by the plants. Regular changes keep the buffers stable, which keeps the pH stable. Clearly not what happened here!

The water changes with a lower pH stable water will help, but unless you can identify the source of the buffers (rocks, corals, shells, ect), it might not be enough. Adding peat to the filter should lower the pH a bit, but will color the water as well.

Should have asked why you want the pH lowered, in the first place. It's a tricky business, which I suspect you know already. ;)

[japeters]

Thanks for your attention!

Currently I have tetras, a black red tailed shark looking thing, and a grommie. I wanted to keep some drawf grommies and or crown loches; however, they don't keep very well; hence the look into water quality. Tank is under poplated and my plants died back as fine haired grayish algie took over. Since then I've been using phosphate absorbers and reguarly cleaning tank for last 10 weeks. Plants are now coming back, yeah.

Ph is about 7.3 and it is my novice belief I should drop it to around 7.0.

Phosphate is still off the chart.

I added Ph decreaser (Acid buffer from Seafoam), however this only last a few days.

Tank - 120 gal
Filter - wet/dry
Rocks - lava rocks from Iowa
sand - acquarium gravel from "gravel company", NOT acquarium supply.

I will test Ph of tap water over night.

Reguarding RO water, I thought about doing that for my own water suppy and friend advised against it as it would take out the minerals too. So I'm currently trying to develop a solution without water filter until I set up my own drinking water first.

[JSchmidt]

If your pH is 7.3, there really is no reason to be messing with it. The fish you list can thrive in water with much higher pH. Trying to lower pH by .3 is pretty much pointless, as your attempts to change pH will almost certainly cause problems much worse than having water that is just slightly higher in pH than neutral.

Jim

[OrionGirl]

No need to drop your pH, it's fine right where it is for all the fish you've listed. I have blue spot color morphs and dwarves in my tanks, and my pH is about the same. Both sets are currently building bubble nests and chasing skirts.

RO is usually used in a mixture with tap water, rather than just straight. It takes a bit of playing to know what ratio to use for your system, but it is fine to use--actually the preferred solution for many aquarists.

[wetmanNY]

japeters, you're within an ace (maybe two) of being just fine. A pH of 7.3 is in the ideal range! Stop fretting.

Your phosphates may have come from buffers you have used in the past, or may have built up from the flake feed, a rich source of phosphate in the system-- or it may have come with your tapwater. Check with your water utility and see if they add polyphosphates to reduce corrosion.

Water changes will help for a start. There are resins to put in the filter to reduce PO4 (phosphate). Problem: within days they get covered with bacteria busy reducing organic phosphate to the mineralized orthophosphate algae (and plants too) can use.

There's some stuff about phosphate transformations at www.skepticalaquarist.com A little too complicated for a post.

Your fine-haired grayish algae is often called "Black Brush Algae.' It's actually a red alga. Hell to eliminate. But that's a minor problem. Come September (they're seasonal, and you're less likely to find them sooner) you'll want to get a trio of Siamese Algae-eaters ("SAEs"), the only fish that eats red algae. (And a delightful fish in itself.)(EDIT: Oop. I just noted your RedTail Shark. He won't tolerate any other closely-related cyprinids, aka "sharks" or "shark-minnows." You have time to rethink this...)

Your problems with Clown Loaches weren't pH problems. Another bridge to cross... get that phosphate under control first, and get the plants growing strongly.

You need to get a test to measure your "KH" (alkalinity) and your GH (permanent, or general hardness).

[japeters]

Thanks for the info.
Tap water is high in phosphates.
Sort of like going to war against Weapons of Mass distruction when there isn't any.

I think getting a water filter may be a good investment.

[wetmanNY]

One way to lower PO4 in a planted tank, when there are phosphates added back with each water change, is to dose lightly with potassium, which may be in short supply. If K is the limiting factor for plant growth, a little potassium will release them, to take up more phosphate.

Keep backflushing your filters: bacterial action is converting organic PO4 to orthophosphates that algae can use...

[japeters]

What's a good source of Potassium?
I have "Kent Plant..." which has Potash K2O, is that what you mean by adding some potassium?

[wetmanNY]

Right! "Potash" is potassium is K. Other common forms of potassium are potassium chloride (KCl) --as "Nu-Salt" or other salt substitutes-- or by the bag in the water softener section at Home Depot etc. Potassium sulfate (K2SO4). And potassium nitrate (KNO3), sold as a stump rotter.

One cation. A range of anions.

[japeters]

Measured my water today

KH - 161 ppm
GH - 18 ppm

Too much messing around with buffers???

I always wondered why I fish like to swim belly up on the surface.

As far as I can tell water changes is my only option???

[wetmanNY]

Start those water changes. And put all that phosphate water on your kitchen garden!

Tell us, what's your initial KH reading out of the tap? That's the baseline, isn't it? All the rest of the "KH" reading you're getting is actually from the phosphates in the pH buffer.

[125gJoe]

http://gordon.sourcecod.com/images/flagicons/american_flag.gif
Just a simple suggestion .... Use Kent's R/O Right with R/O water. Tap water is good also, but not sure of the amount. You need to add back some minerals to R/O water.

Driftwood and peat will bring down the pH..

[TomFromStLouis]

Even though this thread has moved beyond lowering pH, I can't believe noone has mentioned good 'ol CO2 for lowering pH without phosphates!

[Sumpin'fishy]

I was going to say the same thing, Tom........use CO2, especially with a planted tank! The rest of the advice is good, though!

[japeters]

Well I've stopped trying to lower Ph and working on phosphates.
Currently I have the following water conditions:

Tap water that is used during water changes:
Ph = 7.4
Kh = 35.8 ppm
Gh = 71.6 ppm
PHO4 = 2.5

Tank conditions
Ph = 7.4
Kh = 143 ppm
Gh = 53.7
PHO4 > 5.0

I'm using phosguard to lower Phosphates and Kent Fresh water suppliment. I'll try this for a month and see if I can make progress. Any other ideas are appreciated.

[wetmanNY]

Better read the ingredients in the Kent Freshwater Plant Supplement. Personally, i wouldn't be adding anything at this moment.

Your test results don't make complete sense to me. How would you explain these GH discrepencies between what comes out of the tap and what's in the tank? Don't bank on phosphate testing. But the phosphates get counted as part of the KH results.

You mention Phos-Gard. I suppose you are also doing water changes? 30 or 40% every few days, until PO4 levels are close to your tapwater levels.

What other conditioners are you using now?

When you say "lava rocks from Iowa" I wonder if you mean tufa? Tufa is a porous limestone. I can't think where you'd find lava rock in Iowa.

[japeters]

I've stopped any other conditioners.

The stone is not limestone, maybe they're from Ohio. Although my ancestors are from there, Ohio/Idaho is all the the same to me. (Sorry if I insulted anyone!)

I change 30%/40% each week now.