UGF responsible for high nitrates?

[BillyHal]

The same thing happens with all the aquariums I have setup (3 so far). In the beginning everything is fine, the water parameters perfect, my fish healthy, my tank clean. Then, as months pass by, nitrates are starting to build up gradually, until they reach critical levels (50 ppm sometimes). Then, of course, I start to get brown and green algae on the glass, black on my plastic plants. Then my fish are starting to die one after the other, until the population stabilizes to a minimum ( I suppose the most hardy ones). I am experienced enough to know what I am doing: I do not overfeed, I do partial water changes (25% once a week), I clean the gravel, filter and decoration, I do not overlighten, and still the same thing happens.

I cannot do anything else but blame the UGF. Every tank so far has had one. What do you think?

PS. All other water parameters are normal, except nitrates.

[gidget21]

ok so you have a ugf my bet thats what is causing your problem. the thing is with one of those all the fish food that builds up and any poop from the fish will begin to rot and that can spike nitrate problems best bet is to switch to an on hte tank filter i use an aquatech and it wroks wonders for me. i had used a fluval in the past but that spiked my nitrate problems to very critical and you also need some sort of air for thre fish since they won't get any with a fluval its more of a hassal than anything to have one. so best bet invest in a good on the aquarium filter. also live plants are wonderful for helping nitrate problems and there is a product called nitra-zorb i bought at my pet store for my nitrate problem and it worked wonders for me. so hope this helps ya some!!:cool: :cool: oh yeah also forgot to mention all the food and poop that builds up in the ugf can cause algae problems

[gidget21]

one more thing are your rocks new by any chance or are they old??? because if they are older rocks they can act like a sponge and suck in the nitrate so it may not appear you have any looking through the glass the water may not be cloudy but it is in the water so it could be one of those 2 things or a combo of both.:D

[JSchmidt]

I think tanks generally take several months (6 at least) until they mature and you can get a good idea of what sort of maintenance is required.

If you are getting high nitrates (I would call 50 ppm high, but not critical), it is a sign that you are either not removing enough waste before it breaks down (via gravel vacuuming or cleaning filter media) or you aren't changing enough water. It's not the UGF per se that is the problem, but rather your maintenance of the UGF.

I don't offer this as criticism of your fishkeeping, but just to point out that the presence of nitrates at that level is indicative generally of maintenance procedures being insufficient. I have some mbuna tanks that I have a hard time keeping below 40 ppm nitrate for extended periods of time, even with 50% (or greater) water changes more than weekly.

I'd try vacuuming the gravel more frequently and changing water more often (or a larger percentage). That should do the trick.

Good luck,
Jim

[OrionGirl]

I agree with JSchmidt. I run a UGF along with an AC 300 on an overcrowded, planted 40. I've never had nitrates above about 15, for which I think the plants take credit. If you have consistant high nitrates, it means your maintenance schedule should be stepped up a bit, or you should ease off on the feeding. You can try adding some floating plants, like duckweed, but understand the duckweed is invasive and hard to remove if you want to later, though many fish will slurp it down.


I suspect something else is going on as well--fish won't die from 50 ppm nitrates. How are you cycling the tank? How many fish are you putting in, what kind, ect?

[NGerdes]

I have a 10 with a UGF, and my problem was that when I bought the tank (my first) I don't think that the gravel was the right size, possible too big. I had the same problem, because smaller pieces of food and waste would make it under the UGF and settle on the floor of the tank decomposing, meaning every couple of months you have to completely remove the whole thing and clean. Which I think is normal for the UGF. But if you don't take out the UGF and completely clean out the bottom, I can see how the nitrates would begin to spike. Just my opinion, I'm no expert.

[wetmanNY]

Here's another way to think about it, that may be more fruitful:

Ammonia is not added to your system, it is produced within your system.

Ammonia is respired by all the critters-- not only the fish. Ammonia is also produced when decomposers break down animal and plant tissues.

Ammonia in the system can take two routes:

1. It can be assimilated by bacterial communities: end product nitrate.

2. It can be assimilated by plant/algae/cyanobacteria communities: end product plant/algae growth.

Dying plant/algal matter releases the nitrogen again.

Now, you decide how you're going to manipulate the system. More plants? More plant pruning? More algae removal? Less biofilter, either with less biofilter surface or with lower pH,which reduces nitrification? More water changes? More filter cleaning? etc.

[BillyHal]

O.K. now. Insufficient maintenance has crossed my mind as an option, but on the other hand it doesn't make sense: As I mentioned, presently there are only some survivors left in the tank (specifically: 4 neons, 1 angelfish, 1 bristlenose and 2 cories, for 1 month now) and I feed them only once a day because I was concerned of overfeeding. My tank is a 45G. I mean, how much poop and waste can this number of fish produce in such a tank with so little feeding? And the nitrates are still high. Think: the number of fish decreases, the maintenance remains the same, yet the nitrates are peaking. Shouldn't this be a sign of a permanet source of waste inside the tank?

Up to day, I have lost about 10 fishes (platies, cories, dwarf gouramis and neons). Their gills were infected and some had inflated bellies.

[NGerdes]

Do you use a power head with the UGF or is it an air pump. Cause like I said above, your permanent source of wast might be under the UGF. With Air Pump, it would most likely not pump enough to pull out the wast from underneath, especially larger peices, a powerhead maybe could, but that's not definate either. You just might want to check that out, because I know it became a permanent source of waste in my tank. I went to clean it out, and the bottom was almost covered with waste, it explained a lot... for me at least.

[BillyHal]

It is with an air pump. I know what you mean. I have a UGF (this means it "sucks" waste downwards. If it was with a powerhead it would be a RUGF that would "push" waste upwards. My gravel is somewhat large, but with a UGF it has to be like that, otherwise it would be sucked and clog the UGF. As for lifting up the filter and cleaning underneath, man, even the idea of the total mess frightens me! (and I have heard it is dangerous for the fish too!)

[NGerdes]

The first time I did it was when I had to move my tank. And I figured while I have the thing torn apart, might as well give it a good cleaning... And you are absolutely right, it was scary. I could barely see any glass on the bottom because it was covered with @#$%. I mean it was BAD. That's why I thought that might be your source. If you mean by bad for the fish, you mean with hurting the cycle, all you have to do is when you are emptying the tank, keep anywhere from 25-50% of the old aquarium water and put the gravel in that water, don't wash it. then you can clean your tank, and put the wet, uncleaned rocks back in, add the old aquarium water, then add new water. Any spikes should be minimal, in essence, because the gravel remains in the actual aquarium water, it is like doing a 50% water change. If you want to minimize spikes even more, keep more of the old water. It's a lot of work, but it might be worth a try. But mine was only a 10 gal so it made it a lot easier....

[RTR]

Personally I have no issue with UGF, or now RFUGF. I can maintain the same nitrate levels with these filters as with any other filter in FO tanks.

In this case I would suspect improper gravel selection and insufficient maintenance - both water changes and vacuuming.

Strongly agree with wetmanNY's post above - very good concept.

[wetmanNY]

That dark brown floc that collects under the UGF plate is humus. It's organic matter that has done almost all of the decaying it's capable of. It's not rotten and it's not rotting. It should have had the rich earthy clean smell of leafmold, or wellmade compost-- for that's what it is: compost. Humus has given back almost all the nitrogen of the organic molecules that originally made it. Humus is what makes a dark loam black and fertile. It has many sites that trap and hold phosphate and heavy metals.

Humus is not gunk, junk or garbage. Humus is what's missing in a raw new "aquarium" gravel substrate that goes along with algae and green water in a new system.

* * *

I didn't mention in my first post that there are other forms of nitrogen-- aside from ammonia-- that do enter our systems: food for example.

And I didn't mention the nitrates that may occur in some tapwater, especially in heavy agribusiness regions.

[BillyHal]

Thanks for the feedback WetManNY. But still, I did not fully understand your opinion about this one: do you think I should remove this substance (and in which way), or better leave it alone as is?

[Nippy]

Test your tap water!
I knew I had nitrates in my water before I moved into my house. I had the water tested for drinking purposes and was not into fish at the time. So, after about a year and a half, the back of my memory whispers, "Hey, you should finally test the nitrates yourself because you keep oscars now and maybe that's why you are constantly battling HITH."
I finally tested it myself with the fish tests and I have a reading of 12.5 naturally. That's quite a bit to start with! So, you should go ahead and test so you know what you're starting with too.

[kveeti]

Originally posted by BillyHal
(and in which way)

I use a UGF and never had bad nitrate problems... but I also figured there was a finite amount of space under that plate. My plate is such that it is not an open hole at the base of the riser tubes so I couldn't insert tubing down under. There is a gravel vacuum the same diameter (second smallest at Wal-Mart and cheap, too). The vacuum cap fits over the UGF riser tube, I start my suction, and drain 25%. It's not just the under-plate water that gets sucked, I realize, but I do this about once every 4 months or so.