Major massacre,what happened!?

[fishmaniac]

Hey everyone....i need some help

I just moved on Monday....siphoned the water and did about a 50% change into the new tank. We only moved about 10 minutes, so the fish didn't travel long. Anyways, when we put the fish back into the tank, they all started dying.

After about a time period of 60 minutes, I had lost all 30 of my fish.

I did notice that the heater had a little condensation in the heater itself, and am not sure if this is normal, or if this may be part of the reason for our loss.

We tested the water and the Ammonia level was fine and the ph was a little high , but it has always been higher, and they have been fine.

If anyone has any knowledge of what might have happened, that would be great, so I can restart my fish family :)

thanks guys

[Faramir]

Can you define "fine" for the ammonia level?

How was the tank cleaned out before being filled?

Was a dechlorinator used on the new water?

What symptoms did the fish show before going belly up?

[fishmaniac]

We didn't really clean the tank before re-filling....since we only went about 10 minutes, didn't think it would bother. We left a small level of water to cover the gravel

The ammonia level was about .5ppm.

The fish showed symptoms of discoloration, my silver dollars started getting black near the eye and top fin, and most colors faded out of my fish. They started floating to the side, or actually trying to swim upside down. They would freak out right before they died and crash into the gravel.

And we did add dechlorinator.....thats an obvious :) lol

[OrionGirl]

Sounds like maybe something nasty in the substrate was released into the water during the move...But wait and see what others say. Any ammonia that registers on a hobbyist test kit isn't fine--it indicates an imbalance between waste and the bacteria that process the waste.

[Faramir]

Sounds distinctly like poisoning of some kind.

What was the pH?

According to http://www.ornamentalfish.org/code/quality/ammonia.htm, 0.5 ppm ammonia would be toxic at a pH around the 7.8 mark at 25C; at a lower pH if the water were warmer than this.

Am I correct that this is the same tank as they were in before, not a new one?

Any solvents, paints, chemicals in use in the room?

Any measurable nitrite?

[JSchmidt]

Sure does sound like some sort of poisoning...

Jim

[wetmanNY]

What a bad break! I was sorry to read this post.

Sounds like pH rose with the water change and ionized ammonium (NH4) converted to toxic ammonia (NH3). The fish died of some toxicity, and this is the clearest one. "Old Tank Syndrome" and "pH shock" are often invoked to cover this situation. That siphoned-out 50% of the old water had enough un-ionized ammonia to kill the fish.

AmQuel during a move locks up ammonia in a form bacteria can still utilize.

[gidget21]

hmmm did you add the new fish right away after putting the de-chlorinator in??? sounds to me like a poisioning... its to bad that you lost them all. you should have cleaned it alllll out before you moved. did you put the cycle in htere to cut the stress level to it prolly was a combo of stress and something happened in the water. i'd advise you do some serious water tests and wait till all is perfect before you put in new fish.

[fishmaniac]

So we have decided that they died of toxicity. Back to the heater. ARe they supposed to have some condensation inside the glass tube, I am wondering if it broke in some way?

Also, what do you guys suggest to fix my water? Change it all, or keep it and watch it and keep doing my tests.

My ph right now is 7.4...not quite as high as the 7.8 that is mentioned, but it still is a bad deal that I lost my fish, I was kind of attached to some :)

Let me know what I should do as far as continuing with my tank and what my next steps are.....i wont add more until the levels are all good

[karfixer]

Did the water get cloudy? I've had bacteria blooms occur when the gravel gets stirred up and this can kill fish-my understanding is the bacteria use up all the availble O2. I lost one of my Clown Loaches and several CAE's as well during seperate incidents when this occured. Sorry for your loss :(

[OrionGirl]

There really shouldn't be any condensation inside of the heater, as it can cause it to blow (the fuse, not the tube). I would replace it, but it's not a huge deal. Heaters can run for a long time with bit of condensation. Just don't shake it up so the water gets onto the heating coils.

[fishmaniac]

The water did get cloudy after we put the water back into the tank.

I am still skeptical of the heater, and am not going to risk it...i will just by a new one.....its not a huge expense, and I would rather be safe than sorry

[wetmanNY]

fishmaniac, now you could do a couple of complete water changes, without hurting your nitrifying bacteria community at all. Draw it right down to the gravel and refill with dechlorinated water at aquarium temperatures.

Don't add cocktail conditioners or anything. Wait a couple of days with the filter running and do some tests. That'll give you a baseline for your specific water in a matured system.

Go from there!

[fishmaniac]

Ok, we retested the water today. PH is extremely high, above 8, and figured thats why the fish died. Ammonia level is now at 0. We tested our regular tap water (which we added to the tank) and the low range ph was 7.4 and the high range 8.4. Obviously, this isn't right, and had a major effect on the tank

Tested the nitrate level and that is between .5 and 1.

So is the ph high because the nitrates are high, and what should I do to fix it bc i really want some more fish!

thanks

[wetmanNY]

Your pH and nitrates aren't related. Check your test kit and results. My kit couldn't even detect nitrate of 0.5. Do you mean nitrite? Any nitrite at all is a red flag. Toxic. Your biofilter has been disturbed in the move. That will right itself in a couple of weeks.

Check in with your water utility. They probably have a website now. Do they use chloramines for disinfection? You have to know.

Your high pH may drop after tapwater sits open to the air for twenty-four hours. Try it with a bowl of water and retest. What are your results?

You need a test for "KH"/GH-- "carbonate hardness," better known as alkalinity, and general hardness, the measure of all the dissolved minerals. Expect these to be high-- i.e. "hard" and alkaline water. That is, unless your water board softens it at the plant.

Meanwhile, put a pinch of flakes into the system every other day, to keep the nitrifying bacteria going for the time being.

HTH.

[fishmaniac]

We have a test kit that tests kh/gh, but they weren't to high. I guess we will let it sit and see if it goes down, but its sat this week, and hasn't lowered in ph at all

[Heady]

I don't see anyone suggesting it could have been an anaerobic spot in the substrate that was disturbed in the move. If there was a large amount of anaerobic bacteria at work, the hydrogen sulfide gas produced would cause a quick kill-off of everything in there. However, this has never happened to me personally, so I can't say for sure if the symptoms match.

[wetmanNY]

Well of course a move is a bacterial catastrophe. Toxic oxygen kills anaerobes and nitrifiers get stifled, when all the gravel gets mixed together. Lower levels of substrates are pretty much anoxic all the time. The oxygen gradient is quite steep.

fishmaniac, would you re-test for KH and for GH with your kit and give us the actual figures you get? They'll be separate figures.

[Heady]

BTW, condensation inside the heater can be dangerous but it is not what killed your fish.

If there is condensation inside your heater, that means there is a leak somewhere. Water inside = heater fried. You don't want to be in a situation where water and electricity are mixing, for your own safety.

However this is not likely to be what killed your fish. I think the consensus is there was some poisoning going on. A pH value above 8 is not good for most community fish. It would be a good idea to check the pH of the water coming out of the tap, as well as ammonia and nitrites while you're at it. Some communities use chloramine in their water. (I'm assuming you're on city water, not well water.)

[carpguy]

Originally posted by fishmaniac
PH is extremely high, above 8, and figured thats why the fish died. Ammonia level is now at 0. We tested our regular tap water (which we added to the tank) and the low range ph was 7.4 and the high range 8.4. Obviously, this isn't right…


The high and low tests can only measure to their extremes -- 7.4 is probably the "top" of your low kit (eg. 6 to 7.4). It reads as high as it can go. If the High and Low Kits both said 7.4, the pH would be 7.4. If the Low topped out and the High gave a higher figure within its range, that would be the more accurate figure. So the 8.4 is more likely the accurate figure. This could continue to be an issue unless you can get the chemistry sorted out.

Someone else mentioned thoroughly cleaning out the tank for a short move. The various comments on nitrites and what happens to the biofilter when it gets jumbled up show why this mightn't be the best idea.