(almost) newbie makes classic mistake - help!

[SBA]

Hi all, first post. Only found this forum a few days ago, UNFORTUNATELY!

I've been reading a lot of the postings and the advice is great.

Anyway, onto the mistake, this is a bit of a War and Peace job I'm afraid so if you get bored feel free to do something else...

I used to have a coldwater 15.5 imperial gallon (18 US gallon) tank with four goldfish in it. I had kept them for several years with moderate success (looking back it was a miracle they survived at all :) ).

I had a disaster with the UGF which was powered by an air pump. But that's another story.

In my naivety I emptied the whole aquarium out, cleaned all the gravel (but only in running tap water), cleaned out the UGF, rinsed out the tank and then put the whole lot back in, filled it up with water and left it for a week (too busy!). Following this I did a little reading into what I was going to do next.

I decided to buy a heater and turn it into a tropical set-up (current space limitations meant I had to stick with the same sized tank). I also bought a powerhead for the UGF and various testing kits, + bottles of 'stuff'. I decided at this point that I was going to put Puffers in the tank (don't shoot me please - I fell in love with them :o ). I looked into puffers a bit and discovered that they weren't the easiest of fish to keep, but thought that my previous experiences with the cold water tank would stand me in good stead. ho ho.

At the time I didn't really understand anything about 'cycling' (not that I do now). I read a little on the internet about cycling the tank and with this in mind went back to the lfs to ask them for an opinion. Their (and I asked two of them seperately because I didn't believe the first one!) opinion was that it would be fine to introduce puffers into the tank as I had it set up. I think you can guess what came next.

Right onto my problemS!

I now have two Figure of Eight Puffers in the tank (18 us gallon). They are both about 3/4", and have been in there for approx 48 hours. They have both been a bit timid and weren't eating (more on that later), but are starting to move around the tank more. I was feeding them on frozen (but defrosted!) krill and mussels but they weren't eating so I bought a bag of live brine shrimp and they promptly eat the lot.

I have a few assorted plants (which to be honest are not even planted in the gravel yet, but are in their pots).

For filtration I am using an internal fluval with charcoal in it, and a UGF with a powerhead attached, which also provides aeration.

I had the temperature at 77f (which is what the information I found said they needed ), but the lfs said that was too low and that they keep them at 80+. I compromised on 79 for now.

I started testing the water yesterday (I know), results are:

tuesday:

ph = 6
amonia = 0ppm
nitrite < 0.25ppm
nitrate = 0ppm

here I noticed the low ph and have been adding ph up since (slowly).

wednesday
ph = 6.2
amonia = trace
nitrite = 0.25ppm
nitrate = 0ppm

The local water has a ph of 7.5 straight out of the tap (faucet!).

I have added aquarium salt at 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons (6 us gallons).

I also used a product recomended by the lfs (i'm slowly learning about that!) called Easylife which is a 'fluid filter media'. It makes great claims - we shall see.

Whilst transporting and introducing the fish I was careful to follow advice. I put a little stress coat in the bag etc.

I have since done two 15% water changes with conditioned water.

Only now am I begginning to realise the error of my ways, and I guess its not going to be pleasant for them, but my immediate problems are:

1) Why is the ph so low and do I need to start doing gh / kh testing whilst introducing crushed coral?

2) Should I remove the carbon from the filter? If so will this cause an amonia spike and harm the fish?

3) Should I just take the plants out - they clearly won't grow and I'm worried they will rot and cause problems?

4) Anyone heard of Easylife (or Fluid Filter Media for that matter)?

5) Why do I have nitrites and are they at a damaging level yet? (another reason I haven't removed the carbon yet is the nitrites)

6) Should I keep changing water daily (I condition the water with Easylife, tap water conditioner and replace removed salt)?

7) Are live brine shrimp a good idea and if not what else can I get them to eat (they weren't taking fozen food)?

8) Any opinions on the temperature - they seem a bit happier now it is higher?

9) Have I got any chance at all of keeping them alive through this?

I am currently able to devote a lot of time to this project and would truly be grateful for any suggestions / comments / thoughts that can be offered by the pooled wisdom of this forum!

Thanks in advance...

[OrionGirl]

1) Why is the ph so low and do I need to start doing gh / kh testing whilst introducing crushed coral?
pH may be low for a number of reasons--usually, low hardness is the culprit, and may be the result of things in the tank (deocrations/wood), or biological process. If you change from aquarium salt to a marine mix (which will actually create brackish conditions, rather than salted water), it will add buffers and help raise the pH. Without knowing what your hardness is, no way to know if crushed coral will help or not.

2) Should I remove the carbon from the filter? If so will this cause an amonia spike and harm the fish?
Carbon won't remove ammonia, so pulling it won't cause an ammonia spike unless all of your bacteria are currently residing on the carbon. If the carbon has been running for more than about 5 days in there, it's not doing any chemical filtration right now anyway.

3) Should I just take the plants out - they clearly won't grow and I'm worried they will rot and cause problems?
I would remove the plants, and replace them with something able to tolerate the salinity--anubias are good candidates, and are low light plants. I am a big believer of plants in tanks--I think they help maintain a stable environment, cleaner water, and happier fish.

4) Anyone heard of Easylife (or Fluid Filter Media for that matter)?
Nope, I haven't heard of it. Have you looked for anything online? Many 'miracle' products are snake oil, but more valid ones are emerging.

5) Why do I have nitrites and are they at a damaging level yet? (another reason I haven't removed the carbon yet is the nitrites) Speculation here, but the plants, and some bacteria in the tank are functioning to remove the ammonia, since right now it's probably really low. The small bacteria population is producing nitrites. Alternatively, one of the chemical additives is putting nitrites in. Any nitrites are bad. The salt additions you've made should help reduce their toxicity a bit, but it wouldn't hurt to do a bigger water change as well.

6) Should I keep changing water daily (I condition the water with Easylife, tap water conditioner and replace removed salt)? Yes. Puffers tend to be sensitive critters. Water changes will help prevent deaths.

7) Are live brine shrimp a good idea and if not what else can I get them to eat (they weren't taking fozen food)?
Live brine are fine for small puffers, but you'll need a larger food source eventually. Getting them to take prepared frozen foods (krill, scallops, mussels, ect) will help you--much easier than maintaining live brine. Puffers have beaks in those cute pursed mouths, and need to have something crunchy, with a hard shell, to keep it trimmed. Without this, it can overgrow and prevent them from being able to eat. Live snails are great for this, as are mussels, clams, ghost shrimp, etc.

8) Any opinions on the temperature - they seem a bit happier now it is higher?
Temp looks good to me. I keep my tanks around 78-79, and don't have problems. Some species need higher temps, but stability is always key. The problem with aiming high (ie, 82, for example) is that then when the summer heat hits, the tank can't go much higher without being too hot. Since my tank will hit 84 on a summer day, I worry that if it started out at 82, , it might still gain 5-6 degrees, and that's too hot.

9) Have I got any chance at all of keeping them alive through this?
You bet. Lots of worse things have been attempted. One thing I would really recommend you do is to learn more about the puffers. They are great fish, with spectacular personalities, but they do have special needs, and require a bit more effort than say, a danio.

[thom336]

are you sure you are not getting your nitrites and nitrates mixed up? i say this because nitrate is the end product of ammonia and nitrite, and as there is no ammonia it is apparent that biological filtration is taking place, and so it would make more sence that you have 0.25ppm nitrate, which is in acceptable boundaries. however, if it is nitrites, then firstly they are already at dangerous levels (any ammonia or nitrites reading about trace is to be considered dangerous when keeping temperamental fish), and secondly buy a new nitrate test kit as i would think it is not working.

but...heres some more info for you on those wonderful fish you have...

common name: FIGURE EIGHT PUFFER
scientific name: TETRAODON BIOCELLATUS
pronounciation: TETRA-OHO-DON BY-OSS-ELL-AY-TUSS
average max size: 6-8CM
diet: SNAILS AND SHRIMPS

these fish can be kept in either fresh water or brakish conditions, with an ideal pH between 7 and 8. they can be quite nippy and bite other fish, but will generally tolerate other puffers.

hope all this helps, and good luck!

[SBA]

Thanks for the quick response - I will digest the information and get back!

My long term plans are to put them into a bigger tank (when we have room!).

I'm certain that the tests I did were as per the instructions that came with them and I have correctly labelled them (as it were). but I am not certain I am reading the results correctly as the colour charts are a little, erm, difficult to compare with if you see what I mean.

I actually have two different NitrIte test kits (for NO2). They both show the presence of NitrItes. Maybe I will buy another NitrAte (NO3) kit...

Could it be that there were sufficient bacteria still alive in the gravel / filter?

I will also replace the carbon with floss if it isn't doing anything now anyway and do twice daily 10% water changes.

Thanks again for the quick (and thorough) responses, I will keep you informed (and no doubt ask more q's!).

Ade.

[spottedcatfish]

You took the dive I almost took, thank goodness, I got on here before I jumped into the puffer deep end, Mom would never allow live brine shrimp in the house!

If you'll get on here and do a quick search for puffers, you'll find some threads and good links, like everyone has said, puffers tend to be special needs, but since they're eating and happy, you have some time to work the details out.

On to the bacteria, if I'm following, you had a tank with goldies in it that was cycled (if for no reason other than the fish had been there a long time) then you took everything and rinsed it in tap water? I did the same thing not too long ago, and got the same bewildering test results you have now. My feeling, the good bacteria survived the tap water scrub, and your tank is nearly cycled again. If I'm right, look for nitrites to drop to 0 and nitrates to come up in the next couple of days =). No reason to chance things though, so when you pull out that carbon, leave as much of the other filter media in there as you can, because it probably has your good bacteria growing in it.

Good luck, read up, and I'm sure you'll have some very happy puffers!

[SBA]

Right - thanks everyone for the input, here are todays results:

Ph = 6.4
Amonia = 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitrates = 0

!!!!

I tested the nitrites with two seperate kits (including the one that gave positive results yesterday and it was definitely 0.

I'm a bit confused by this. Could it be that the process hasn't even started yet?

I've been religous with the water changes (2 yesterday, 1 so far today - after testing the water), and the fluval is now pumping more water through than it was with carbon in it (it has floss in it now).

A few responses to people:

OrionGirl
Thanks for your detailed response, I have been looking into puffers anyway but will continue to learn.

I have looked for info on Easy-life (http://www.easylife.nl) - their web site has links to independent tests and details the claims they make for the product.


thom336
Like I say I've been careful with the testing and have used more than one kit.

They are wonderful, I agree!

spottedcatfish
Take the plunge - they're great!!!

Yes I washed the gravel / filter etc in tap water and then put it straight back in the tank.

I really hope you are right - the nitrites have dissapeared so maybe, just maybe...

[OrionGirl]

Very reasonable. The bacteria which metabolize the nitrogen cycle are not pansies--a little rinsing in tap water won't kill them off. Since you have been doing water changes and reventing serious spikes (which can inhibit bacterial growth), they should be able to recover quickly. Furthermore, if you had 4 goldfish in this tank, they likely would have produced much more waste than 2 puffers, which means there isn't a need for a huge bio-bed.

The pH is still a tad on the low side. You may want to get a small amount of crushed coral and keep it in a nylon baggie (old nylons work well, just whack off a toe). This will increase the hardness as well, and increase the pH. You'll want to play around with the amount used, until you get a stable pH closer to 7.0. This is a better method of increasing the pH than using the chemical stuff. That stuff doesn't change the buffering capacity of the tank, meaning it creates temporary changes only. Using CC will require less fiddling, once you have the amount figured out. Also, many of the chemical pH manipulators use phosphates, which can bring on a nasty algae bloom. Sorry--didn't notice you mentioned using the stuff earlier! You may want to test your tap water after allowing it to sit out over night. Often times, CO2 is dissolved in the water, but gasses off overnight, lowering the pH dramatically.

[SBA]

I know ph-up is not the best solution - to be honest I just wanted a 'quick fix' and it seemed the simplist solution at the time.

As I learn more about controlling and testing ph / hardness I will use more long term methods to control it.

The ph in the old tank (same tp water) was around 7 / 7.5 so I'm hoping it naturally levels out at this.

As for the amount of waste produced by the goldfish, one of them in particular was a large, greedy, erm - waste producing :) fish. The puffers are tiny by comparison and have the tank to themselves.

Just bought them some whitebait (a different person at the LFS said that is what they were eating there), but they wouldn't let me have any snails, which I thought was a bit tight - surely they would have thousands of them?

Thanks,
Ade.

[OrionGirl]

Some LFS will allow you to go snail diving, others are a bit stuffy (they seem to think you're going to grab a fish as well?) about having anyone dredging through. Try getting chummy with one of the employees, and ask if they would be willing to collect some for you from a planted tank (our LFS is thrilled to do this for me, since it means the squeemish girl can pull them out, but not have to crunch them up). Make sure they understand you want the common pond snails, not any of their high cents apple snails or ramshorns.

[SBA]

worth a go, I might also try various other LFSs around the area, you never know...

[SBA]

Haven't done the testing yet today but I have a question about feeding. They still won't take forzen food. I put a bit of whitebait in the tank (cut the head off one) and one of the puffers had a quick go at it before leaving it in the corner.

So I tried putting the body in cut in half and the other one had a few picks at that, before it too got bored and left it.

Any tips here? Shoud I use a whole whitebait tied to a bit of nylon and jig it around a bit? Or should I be cutting it up into more manageable pieces for the little fellas?

I don't have an infinite supply of brine shrimp (LFS only gets them once a week) and I would be a lot happier if I could get them to eat frozen food.

Also not keen on bloodworm (had a bad experience with them burrowing into the gravel and hatching once!). Would daphnia be ok while they are so small?

Other than that they seem happy enough and have been eating the shrimp. They are definitely a lot more lively now and shoot out to the front of the tank when you enter the room. In fact its almost like they want food - until you give them some!

I'll post water results later, just in case anybody is interested.

Oh yes, I have been removing the unwanted food.

Thanks for any help.
Ade.

[Harry Tolen]

I've been reading this thread with interest. Did you decide to use the Marine mix as OrionGirl suggested? That will help, and mean that you don't need to use the pH up any more, too.

Regarding food for your puffers, snails are a good backup food. When you move the puffers on to a larger tank, you can just use the tank you have now as a "snail farm", and harvest your own.

Most LFS also sell ghost shrimp as feeder food for certain fish, so you might try those as an alternative. If the LFS you are currently going to does not carry these, you should call around; it shouldn't be too hard to find one that does. I actually keep these shrimp as scavengers in a few tanks, so the nice thing about them is that if the fish won't eat them, they will serve a purpose in the tank.

I'd also suggest that you try frozen bloodworms as an alternative now. By the way, the worms you referred to are tubifex or blackworms. You should definitely never feed these in a tank with an undergravel filter. Bloodworms are not worms at all, but rather the larvae of a flying insect. Warning: some people are extremely allergic to these little buggers (myself included). If you decide to try them, either get yourself a box of disposable surgical gloves (my solution), or just make sure you wash your hands immediately and thoroughly with lots of warm water and soap right after feeding.

Keep up the daily water changes (adding Marine mix with each change will bring your water pH, GH, and KH up slowly and nicely). Good luck and keep us posted.

[SBA]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the advice. I haven't yet started putting marine mix in, mainly because I've been swamped with information over the last few days (!) and the thought of making things more complicated put me off, until I know what I'm doing more.

I might look into it as and when I've got time. Would slowly increasing the amount of aquarium salt also be a way of producing brackish water? *thinks he might be opening a can of worms with this question!*

My more immediate problem is today's test results:

ph = 6.7
ammonia = 0.5ppm !
nitrite = 0
nitrate = 0

I've done a water change and will do another later. The test kit I have suggests carbon in a filter or ammo-lock 2 which it says will convert it to 'non-harmful ammonia' but will not inhibit the growth of the biological filter. Is it worth me using this?

Incidentally they have started bickering, particularly when there is food around. I will try feeding them more brine shrimp.

As always thanks for the help.

[OrionGirl]

Nope, aquarium salt will not make marine/brackish water. Marine/bracksih water consists of NaCl, in addition to a bunch of other additives and minerals (Calcium, iron, blah, blah--it's on the packaging). All of which makes for happy critters, in addition to buffering the water and raising pH. Adding aquarium salt is appropriate if you're thinking of raising the temp and serving them up with butter and parsley.

Not to add to your load, but you'll also want to invest in a hydrometer. They're cheap, easy to use, make sure to keep clean (rinse in fresh after each use). They are used to determine specific gravity, which is a cheaters method of estimating salinity. A Brackish setup should read somewhere between about 1.005 and 1.010 (you'll find various figures for this--it's a guess-timate, so somewhere within the range). Using a hydrometer eliminates the guess work in how much salt mix to use to achieve an appropriate level for your fish.

Try feeding them both the brine and the frozen fish bits. Use little pieces--these guys can crack a shell wide open, but they can't really chew large pieces into smaller ones (think how a bird eats, not how a croc eats--the bird breaks a nut open, then snaps up the pieces, they don't tear of huge chunks). With a fleshy food, if it won't fit in their mouth, they'll have a tough time eating it. If the live food is their to entice them, they will grab a few bits of the other foods as well, and slowly learn that this too is food.

[SBA]

Hi all,

Just in case anyone is interested today's tests showed:

ph = 7
ammonia = 0 (or maybe a trace its hard to tell)
nitrite = 0
nitrate = 0

I'm still feeding them brine shrimp but have been giving small bits of whitebait as OrionGirl suggested. They seem to be slowly taking to it. One of them seems to like the eyes in particular. Nice.

One of them is getting a bit territorial though, particularly when there is food in the tank, I guess this could be a problem in such a small tank, but at least it gives me some ammo to use when persuading my wife that we have got room for a 50g :D

Will look into very slowly adding marine salt next week I think...

Incidentally OrionGirl, I was thinking sushi rather than butter & parsley!

Cheers,
Ade.

[wetmanNY]

LWI like Harry Tolen.

Ade, next time you're at the lfs-- prolly tomorrow, eh-- take a small screwtop jar and ask them to fill it from their open bag of "crushed coral" for the reef tank substrates they have in the shop.

Put a couple of tablespoons into your filter, say inside a filter bag. It will start to stabilize your pH a little above 7.0

I followed the link to the description of "EasyLife" and saw no description, no hint of ingredients, no science, just a lot of vague but glossy promises...

Sounds like your dilemma is unravelling nicely. You've been getting outstanding advice.

[SBA]

Hi wetmanNY,

I do appreciate all of the advice, v. glad I found this forum!

Having a problem with ammonia now (I guess its starting to cycle?). Have been out of town for a day so only did one change on saturday and left it for 24hours before testing again. Last two day's results are:

Sunday:
ph = 7.2
ammonia 1.5ppm
nitrites 0
nitrates DNT

Monday:
ph = 7
ammonia 1.5ppm
nitrites 0
nitrates DNT


I'm doing two changes a day again and will keep you posted.

Is it worth me putting in a treatment for the ammonia at this point?

If so any suggestions (the test kit says ammo-lock 2, but then it would as they make it)?

They still seem happy enough, but I know this ammonia is not good for them...

Thanks again for the advice.

Ade.

[SBA]

in case anyone's still reading:

Tuesday:
pH = 7.4
ammonia = 2ppm
nitrites = trace
nitrates = 0

Bought some ammolock.

Also got some snails from different LFS. Dropped the first one in and it didn't even reach the gravel before being descended on by the puff's and turned into mashed snail shell. Lovely.

[OrionGirl]

It's great you were able to get some snails! It's something to watch them go after them.

[ChilDawg]

People are still reading...just thought that I'd let you know that!

If your ammonia is rising like that still, you may not have cycled yet, or it may just be Mother Nature's way of pointing out that a water change is due. Also, I believe that you will start to see more ammonia as the pH rises, but you still need to make sure that it is minimal for your fishes' sake.

Best of luck with that tank...sounds like a cool one!

~Matthew

[SBA]

I'm still doing 2 changes a day.

Edit
I seem to have remedied the 'what to feed' problem - I'be bought frozen whole shrimp (instantly attacked by both of 'em), frozen whole cockles (as before) and frozen bloodworm (haven't tried those yet. They both have fat bellies and seem happy, they don't even bicker too much when feeding now.
Edit

What I'm not sure about is my food removal technique. I have been feeding them and removing any bits I can find with either a small net or a gravel vacuum. Its difficult to see all of the bottom due to plants (mostly artificial) and rocks (from old tank, provide 'nooks and crannies').

Also when they eat they are such messy little so and sos that the food ends up EVERYWHERE, also made worse by the output from the filters which rapidly distributes the bits around the tank.

Are there any devices that allow food to be entered into the tank in a confined area, such as a tray of some sort? My thinking is that they could feed on this and then I could lift the mess out of the tank! Is this realistic or am I getting them confused with the cat?

[OrionGirl]

There are feeding devices like you describe, but they really only work well with floating, surface foods.

Best bet is to get a tough loach, that's nocturnal. Not a fish you will see often, but he will be the one to come out at night and clean up the leftovers. Heck, even a raphael cat would work--well armoured, but nocturnal. Other options--bumble bee catfish (though I am not sure how well they will take the salinity), since they will burrow into the substrate and clean at night. There are several armoured fish that will thrive and act as clean up for the uneaten bits.

[SBA]

OrionGirl

Excellent idea! Is it right that the size of my tank is bad not due to the size of the fish (and therefore their waste production), but because of their need for a predator's space? In which case I could get a 'scavenger' fish without overloading the tank?

If I do get a loach (or 'whatever', I will do some research), should I wait 'till the tank has deffinitely cycled? Are they hardy, will the puff's attack it, will the leftovers be enough food?

I guess a lot of it depends on the 'to marine salt or not to marine salt' conundrum that I am now facing.

Incidentally I am not disagreeing with you OrionGirl, but you say that aquarium (or un-iodized) salt will not form brackish water. The salt I have (which is aquarium salt) says it can be used for brackish tanks (but not marine). Also the brackish 'expert' at the LFS said that marine salt was a no-no, and that aquarium salt was ok for brackish. I'm really confused!

Have also bought some 'coral sand' which I am assured is the same as crushed coral and have added that to my filter. Hopefully should provide nice hard, alkaline water. I will buy the required test kits and keep an eye on it.

Thanks again,
Ade.

[OrionGirl]

Yep, the size is based on the adult size and nature of the puffers. Puffers tend to be stingy about sharing space with highly visible fish, but lower key fish tend to be overlooked and ignored. You would likely need to provide some supplemental feeding, but that could consist of an algae tab dropped in after lights out. Definitely wait until the tank has stabilized in all parameters, and then make sure you pick a fish which can tolerate the specific conditions.

The problem is many people aren't thinking true brackish when they talk about what salts to use. Very few LFS know much about brackish to begin with, and tend to treat it as some compromise condition--like a FW tank that needs medicating. Brackish environments are areas where the sea and fresh water meet, such as lagoons, river mouths, ect. As such, they have much, much more than just NaCl dissolved in there, and fish that live in these environments likely adapted to the presence of those additional trace elements. Using a marine mix comes closer to duplicating the habitat since it includes those trace elements. I'm sure you've heard from people who say their fish has done fine in pure FW, or with a bit of aqaurium fish. Ask those people how long their fish lived. If it's anything less than about 8 years, they're fish died an early death, likely because they did not provide for it's needs.

And actually, for purposes other than creating brackish conditions, iodized salt is fine. The amount of iodine found in table salt is so minute that you would have pickled fish before they had any problem with iodine. Heck, many reef tanks require iodine supplementation.

[SBA]

You have me convinced - I will slowly add marine salt after next visit to LFS.

Test results are:

pH = 7.5
ammonia = 2ppm
nitrite = trace
nitrate = 0

I've added ammo-lock to the water and have kept up the twice daily changes.

They seem happy enough and have a new favourite food. Both of them go mad for frozen bloodworm, so I now have four frozen foods they will take eagerly. And when I say eagerly...

[SBA]

Hi all,

Recent test reults suggest that cycling is underway. Ph has remained at 7.5 for a few days, ammonia has been between 2-4ppm and nitrites are starting to increase (still below .25ppm).

They are eating well and looking happy enough.

Bring on the nitrites...

Ade.

[SBA]

Hi all,

Tank update:

The last couple of days test results show ammonia at 4ppm and nitrite off the scale!!

I have been keeping up the water changes twice daily (might increase to three...).

Also I've added ammo-lock to prevent (hopefully) the ammonia being too harmful to the fish.

QUESTION: Does anybody know if there is a product that would be suitable for de-toxifying the nitrite, or should I just keep up the water changes until nature takes its course?


I'm a little worried by the appearance of the fish now (tell tale puffer 'grey bits' on their sides / bellies), and whilst they seem fine this water can't be doing them any good.

Thanks,
Ade.

[Faramir]

QUESTION: Does anybody know if there is a product that would be suitable for de-toxifying the nitrite, or should I just keep up the water changes until nature takes its course?

Yes. Salt.

But you're already adding that ;)

[SBA]

yeah and from what I gather you only need about one pinch for each ten gallons or so (that's already there for sure).

Anymore suggestions?

[SBA]

BTW I used to live in Sheffield (bl**dy students);)

[thom336]

SBA...didnt realise u were a brummie!

[SBA]

that hurts. I'm from Coventry originally. That's like a blade being called a wednesday fan!

About the nitrites...

[SBA]

Hi all,

Thought I'd thank everyone that gave me advice through this and let you know the following:

ph 7.5
ammonia = 0
nitrites = 0
nitrates = < 10ppm

WAHEY!!!!

Its the first day the nitrites have been 0 so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Both fish seem happy enough, good colour (which varies depending on hunger, tiredness etc) and they are acting less like 'caged animals'. I know that I have to get a bigger tank ASAP (not another cycle! I'll do it fishlessly next time :)), but for now things are looking good.

Thanks again for all the advice - in the words of Arnie 'I'll be back'!!

Cheers,
Ade.

[jamiemyers]

I was told at the pet store here when I bought some feeder goldfish for my lemon oscars to keep the goldfish in a separate tank (except the few being put in as food) because they have more waste than other fish which increases the nitrites to harmful levels for other tropical freshwater fish

[prober]

Holy 8 year old thread Batman!

[user_name]

Woah, thats gotta be a record!

[rainbowcharmer]

LOL. I read through the whole thing, not realizing it was old until I got to the last page. I'm thinking - who are some of these people that are posting answers? I never see them on here... Bahahahaha

[Pufferpunk]

OMG, I can't believe it took 4 pages & my preparing for a long response, before I found out how old this thread is! I wonder how the puffers are today?