View Full Version : De-Nitrate
:idea: ....Has anyone out there tried Seachems "de-nitrate"????....What were your results????...Sue
sapgranth25
09-09-2006, 3:47 AM
seachem De nitrate sounds like seachems matrix & purigen i use purigen & that is great not sure about the other two but i`ve read about both & really all three seem to do the same thing probably De Nitrate hits Nitrate harder & is more affective & seen as purigen dose a great job against nitrate ammo nitrite etc i guess DE NITATE will soon clear any nitate with in the tank
dorkfish
09-09-2006, 8:54 AM
Sure, all these products will take care of your nitrate, but they won't take care of the underlying cause(s). Nitrate in itself is relitively non-toxic, but it's a good indicator of dissolved organic coumpounds (DOC's), wich is really why you should be concerned about nitrate in the first place. All the nitrate removing flter media and chemicals only remove the nitrate - not the DOC's. So while you may end up with a low level of nitrate via using these products, you will still have the DOC's wich they shoul dbe indicating, but they aren't now that you removed the nitrate (so basically using nitrate removing products is more trouble than it's worth).
Nitrate is cuased by the creatures living in your system - fish, corals, shrimps, crabs, ect. Elevated levels of nitrate is cuased by imbalances within your system - too many fish or too small a tank for the given fish population, some filtration methods and a new(<3 months) tank are just some examples of the cuases for elevated nitrates (and DOC's).
If you want to lower your nitrate and the DOC's it indicates, you need to treat the imbalance(s). Removing fish(espescially fish wich are inapropriate for the tank) or upgrading to a larger volume of water, adding a skimmer or upgrading to a more effecient or effective skimmer (this removes the DOC's directly from the water coloum), increasing water changes or reconsidering/changing your filtration method are IMO the best ways to treat this problem (listed in no particular order). The addition of macro algaes, deep sand beds or more live/base rock can help, but I feel that that would be leaning more towards treating the syptoms and not the cause(s).
And no, I have never and will never use chemical filtration such as seachem's "de nitrate", becuase they merely treat the symptoms and not the cause.
I inherited my nitrates when I bought a 75 gal tank from a client.....He had NEVER done water changes only top offs. He had 3 tiny peices of live rock (less than 5 lbs) & only 4 fish (3 damsels & the pride of the tank....a 5 inch Purple Tang....When we moved the tank in mid July we moved every drop of water so I wouldn't have to re-cycle the tank....Thats when my Tang got his case of ich that was cured by the "Stop Parasite" I posted on the "copper isn't working" thread. Before you tell me I should have started with brand new water, I'll tell you that I didn't have any place to put the fish. I haven't even had a FW tank in the past so I read everything I could get my hands (and computer) on to learn everything in the fast lane before the move...My learning curve was amazing....After adding over 80 lbs of cycled rock & a great protein skimmer my only issue now (after curing the Tang) are the high nitrates.....I have been doing 25% water changes about once a week.....Sue
Hi, Sue
How long have you had the live rock in the tank and what sort of substrate does it have? It takes the bacteria that deal with nitrates longer to develop than the others. Also what sort of filtration etc it might also be a case of nitrates leaching out .
I've never used the chemical you talked about but, if your bacterial population is still forming you don't want to remove their food source. You migh also consider adding a deep sand bed that will help out as well. You migh use a little if you water conditons are way out of whack but, I would as dorkfish suggested solve the underlying issue for the long term health or your tank.
hth and welcome to a.c.
Chris
Thanks for the welcome!!!!.....The rock has all been added (except for the first 5 lbs) since we got the tank on July 15th....Its funny you should mention about the rock because after my last post I did a water change today & as soon as I was done & the water settled out I rechecked the nitrates & I was really bummed to see they were still @ 100!!!....I got to thinking about it & told my husband that maybe the rock was cured but not completely & maybe this was the last stages (nitrates) of the rock curing....Every week since I got the tank I added another 6-8 lbs....So I can see why my nitrates haven't gone down....We've lost all of the cleaner shrimp & an emerald crab & a Sally Lightfoot crab....LFS told me they didn't care about nitrates but never asded how high mine were....My substrade is crushed coral not sand....It is over 6 inches in some spots....Early on we bought a Divided Leopard Wrasse & when we got him home I read that he sleeps in the substrade.....As night approached he seemed to be looking for a place to crash for the night & I was horrified to see him dive face first into the coral.... :eek:!!!!!!!....The very next day I went to the LFS & got a $40.00 bag of live sand (in water) & came home & hollowed out a big area in the middle front of the tank & fillde it with over 4 inches of sand....It has been his bed ever since!!!! I don't understand why there are no anerobic spots deep in coral same as sand....There are also some in the rock so I'm expecting to see results soon....My filters are 2 Aqua Clear 70's plus I have 2 Powersweeps to keep the flow going (they were for a 40 gal tank each) My Protein Skimmer is a Seaclone 150 so I figure it is twice what I need for the tank...I get 1/4 cup of :rant2: every day....I also have a fuge with copepods & calerpa for the Pipefish & the Mandarin.....Life is good.....Except for the nitrates!!!!!...Sue
I'd say the problem is the crushed coral ,"if it came with the tank", or will be in the future if it didn't. It can't compact enough to allow an anoxic envrionment in your tank and as you wrass has already shown you is really hard for critters to burrow through. It catches all sorts of food that will just set there and rot and ruin your water quality. I know you don't want to hear that but, it would be better to get rid of it now than to wait until your tank is established.
I'd use anything I could to get my nitrates lower ,for instance a 25% or more water change on a daily basis. 100 ppm will be bad for the long term health of your fish and some s.w. fish are more tolerant than others. I'd say most of what you have would be ok for a while,"I don't know about the pipefish."
hth
Chris
p.s.
I hope you really do have a bunch of pods you're tank isn't very old and your mandarin is likely to eat you out of house and home. They usually need to get about 6 months to get established enough to support one . If it starts looking puny you can get cultures on line ,"or take one out of your tank and grow out in a 10 gal"
Thanks for the fast reply, Chris!!! :bowing: You suggest 25%+ water changes daily....Can you really do water changes that often????....My cc did come with the tank....What if I added a thick layer of sand ON TOP of the coral???? Wouldn't that make all of the coral area anoxic if the idea is to have a non oxygenated area for the nitrates to go???? Any thoughts on this anyone????
As for the Mandarin, I bought 4 bottles of copepods for $60 & dumped them all in the fuge....Mandarin is ALWAYS roaming the rocks & I can see him chowing down on something every couple seconds...I figure it must be the pods....I think I'm going to buy 4 more bottles soon as I know he's not the only pod consumer in the tank!!!!! He seems VERY Fat & Happy!!!! :p: ....Sue
dorkfish
09-10-2006, 9:12 AM
You can do water changes more often than that even, provided that you can mix the salt that fast.
As for your mandrin, it was suggested on reef central that you count it's "hit per minute". "Hit per minute" means how many times he apears to be eating something every minute - as soon as that number starts to drop by a somewhat substantial number (I'd say by 25%), then you add more pods.
No, long term, adding sand over the crushed coral will not be so - the crushed coral will work it's way up through the sand, until it's on top and the sand is on the bottom.
OK, so you are saying if I add sand ON TOP of the cc it will filter down through the coral & end up on the bottom....Then I could add sand as I can afford it & remove the coral as it comes to the top????
BadRoma1
09-10-2006, 7:09 PM
i have nitrate problems too and i have been fighting it for some time now. but u in a better shape then i am because your fish tank is bigger than mine. one thing i know for sure that changing water every day will do nothing for nitrates. why don't u tell everybody a little more about your fish tank, because its unknown what u have all in total. somebody will be able to tell you why your nitrates are so high if he or she knows what you have.
dorkfish
09-10-2006, 7:52 PM
It would be a major hassle to remove the CC as it fulters up through the sand, you could do it but simply removing it and replacing it with sand would be so much easier.
Bad roma, are you saying the water changes didn't do anything to your nitrates at all or are you saying the nitrate kept coming back?
Also, the OP(original poster) said the tank didn't get water changes AT ALL - regardless of your filtrataion and all that, if you don't do water changes and have fish in the tank your gonna run into water quality problems like that.
Ok, My tank is 75g, I use RO water for changes, I have Power Compacts, 2 Actinic 2 natural 10,000k....5 Lunars, I have 2 AquaClear 70's (hang ons) & 1 Seaclone Protein Skimmer sized for 150g...2 Power Sweeps sized for a 40g each...I have a hang on the tank Fuge with grape Calerpa & pods....I have almost 90 lbs of LR (2 peices are Tonga Rock) & crushed coral substrade with 10 lbs of live sand in the center area....Livestock consists of 3 Damsels, A 5 inch Purple Tang, Divided Leopard Wrasse, Mandarin Dragonet, Coral Beauty, Purple Firefish, Orange Stripe Goby & a very cute Pipefish....Also have asst red & blue leg hermit crabs & Snails, & some Featherdusters....I have one Toadstool Leather coral that I think the nitrates are going to do in soon....All of the 4 cleaner shrimp died, also an emerald crab, a porcelin crab & a red sea star all zapped from nitrates....
BadRoma1
09-10-2006, 8:45 PM
what are the readings of RO water before you put it in a tank? i'm asking because i have nitrate reading of after i RO and DI my water. i had to buy another filter just for nitrates. possibly that cartreges have to be changed
I'd say it's the crushed coral and how ever many years worth of various fish waste. Don't buy live sand just go to home depot or where ever and get white play sand it will cost you about $10-$15 to fill your tank or if you want a deep sand bed You'd need to roughly double that ,"my $ figure shouldn't be off by much."
Get a large rubber maid container for your fish and another for your live rock. There are a couple of ways to go about this the easy way and the safer way. The easy way is just to take all you fish live rock etc and place in to large rubbermaind containers make sure the fish have some water movement put your powerhead in with them. The rock will be just fine for a few hours in a rubbermaid with water. Then remove all the c.c. from the tank if there are little worms etc. save some put them with the l.r. You should keep a close eye on your water params for a few days after that make sure you don't have a spike .l'd also wash out as much schmutz as possible from the bottom of the tank save some of the old tank water for this.
The safer way would be to do 1/2 at a time but, it would be a really big pita to do this twice.
Place all your live rock back in the tank and add dry sand,"please, make sure the live rock is on the base of the tank as this will make your rock pile much more stable!" Fill bottom of tank with desired amount of sand. Place a bowl on the sand and fill tank with water.
When you refill but a glass bowl or something of that sort in the bottom of the tank or you'll end up with a mega sandstorm vs a giant sand storm. I'd give the tank a few hours to settle down and turn back on your power head," directed away from the bottom!" Add fish when the water starts to clear up ,"don't worry if there is a little sand still in the water when you put your fish back in.
Hth
Chris
**keep a close eye on the calupera to if it's in a situation where it's getting lots of nutrients and/or if it's not being harvested enought by you or critters it will go sexual. It will more or less melt down and spread spores everywhere in your tank. I'd use cheto or other algae in there cheto grows fast doesn't go sexual and pods love it .
BadRoma1
09-11-2006, 12:22 AM
don't use white play sand, it's toxic to fish. there is something about it that takes the oxigen out of the water.
Since when BadRoma1? A lot of people in the s.w. community have used white play sand in their tanks for years. It's made out coral/algae bodies it help maintain a little ca your ph etc.
My RO water is 0 amonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, about a 7.3 Ph.....I know it isn't causing the problem, we just set it up 2 months ago & the filters are still fairly white.....I am trying to get up the nerve to swap out the coral for sand....You guys can :argue: out the details of play vs live sand....I really want the critters & bacteria that are in the LS....I was at a couple stores today looking for piping big enough to suck out the substrade a little at a time & replace it with LS with a funnel connected to the large flexible tubing so I could place the sand where I want it...wadda ya think?????
BadRoma1
09-11-2006, 9:42 PM
since i used it in my freshwater fish tank. also it says on the bag that don't use it in aquariums.
BadRoma1
09-12-2006, 12:26 AM
read live sand directions carefuly. i read on oragonite, it should keep nitrates at check, that you can't put fish in with it right away. maybe i misunderstood. also wanted to note that i just stured my sand from the bottom up on one side of the tank and it looks like that helped by dropping my nitrates down to 20ppm. i'll do another side tomorrow. can't remember who recomended it, but i really apriciate it. hope it will hold for longer than a day. watch out for those bristle worms, i'm stuck all over my hand with the spines. the guys on this forum are very helpful and good at this stuff, i tell u.
BadRoma1
09-12-2006, 12:40 AM
go for the sand and don't doubt. it's not recomended to use crushed coral as your substrate if you want to keep more critters than just fish anyway. forgot to say that when i was doing my water changes it helped to drop nitrates a little, but only for that day. it also confermed an article where it was stated that u have to constantly flush your system with fresh water for it to make big difference in nitrate levels, so one has to dig down to the bottom of the problem in order to fix it. little did i know that they ment it literaly.
I'd go for the sand to but, I'd use plain old sand . It will become live sand over a couple of months. You can buy cultures of the little critters over the net and it will save you a lot of $. Most live sand only has a few bacterial cultures in it anyway and very few critters. You can use any arogonite sand ," that isn't exposed to environmental toxins etc." that you can find in a salt water tank.
You can even use silica based sands with few issues. there might be a diatom bloom for a few weeks and it may not buffer your tank as well either. I even question the buffering ability of ca based sands after the initial introduction as the ph required for it to go into solution probably really can't happen very much in a tank.\
anyway hth