New Guy Planting Questions

[NGerdes]

I'm going to start setting up a planted aquarium this weekend. I have ordered Flourite and Sand from Big Al's that should be here tomorrow. Here's my question, what is the best way to do this for my plants. Do I mix the Flourite and the Sand 50/50, or do I put down the Flourite with the sand on top, or do I mix the Flourite and Sand 50/50 then a thinner layer of the sand on top to hide the flourite? I bout a nice pure white sand and want that to be the focus without the flourite showing through, but don't want it to hurt my plants.

I'm doing a DIY co2. Will I need a regulator of some kind in order to not sufficate my fish? Or can I control it by just controling yeast amounts?

Also, I am doing a fishless cycling, at what point should I add the plants, before cycling, after cycling, during cycling???

Thanks.

[djlen]

Can you give us some info on your water(pH,gH,kH)? Since you have not set up your tank these would be your water measurements out of the tap. Now, what size tank are you setting up? What kind of lighting will it have? With answers to the above questions we will know a lot more about what to advise you on.
As to your questions. You can put down a layer of flourite with sand on top, but over a period of time the two substrates will end up mixing together and you'll have a mixture of the two. It's really difficult to keep them separate, especially when you have live plants that will occasionally need moving and/or pruning. IMO mixing the two would be best for the plants, but depending on how fine the sand is you can lay it in any way you want to. I say that because a really fine/dense sand is not as good a substrate for the roots. It compacts on them and they can't breath as well.
For DIY CO2 you don't use a regulator. Again, knowing the size of your tank would help here. DIY consists of a 2-liter soda bottle and an air line going into your tank to supply the CO2. It's a very simple set up. The amount of CO2(number of bottles) depends on tank size.
Many people do fishless cycling by loading up their tank with as many plants as possible. Fast growing, nutrient eating, plants are inexpensive and my suggestion would be to get as many as you can afford, to stuff in there. I use them along with floating plants(salvinia, riccia etc.). They will "cycle" the tank for you in a relatively short period of time. If you have access to an established tank(one of yours or a friend who has one, or your LFS) ask them for some substrate from their tank, put the substrate in a nylon bag and put the bag into your filter. The nutrifying bacteria in that "used" substrate will multiply and cycle your tank in a fraction of the time it will take without it.
So give us the info I asked for above and we can go from there.
Len

[Tyler718]

I agree with Len on this. I went ahead and mixed the sand and flourite 50/50 in my planted tank. IMHO it looks really good. Almost natural. Just make sure you rinse both as best as you can. It will still have some cloudiness at first, but will settle after a few days. If you do a search through the plant forum for rinsing sand and flourite you'll get some good ideas on how to do it.

For cycling I followed what LEN told you and it worked out great.

If you click on my Tank Specs link at the bottom you can go to my 20 gal to get an idea what the substate mix will look like if just mixed together.

Good luck,

Dave

[NGerdes]

Well, I'm at work right now, so I will give you what I can on the tank. 29 gal, PH ~ 7.3-7.4 GH is kind of high, around th 10-12 mark. I have not done a test on KH, but have the kit and will test it tonight. I haven't gotten the sand yet, but I'm guessing it is kind of a fine sand, but not too fine I hope. Lighting is also not actually in yet (another project for this weekend) but I will have about 80 watts, which will be around 2.76 watt/gal. This might be a little much though, because I will be growing anubias and crypts, and maybe an amazon sword, which I don't think that much light is necassary. And I have my eye on a filter at Big Al's which is looking pretty nice. Eheim (sp) 300 I think.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing (first planted tank if you couldn't tell) My plan for this weekend is to just get the substrate in the tank with some water, just to give it some time to settle and clear up a little before I start in with the actual setting up process.

[djlen]

Ok, now we have a somewhat better idea of what we're looking at. Yes, 2.76watt/gal is on the high side(just my thought, others will tell you it's just fine) for starters especially for the plants you describe. But it's definately workable. I can't stress enough how important it is to load it with as many plants as possible initially, and get some substrate for your filter, from another established tank. Let things settle for a few days, let the plants get somewhat established for a few more, and you can then add A FEW fish. You will need them to supply the ammonia to start the ball rolling on your cycle. By keeping your fish load down and having patience you may not even notice a cycle. The plants will eat up the ammonia and nitrites and at the same time the nutrifying bactreria will colonize itself in your filter and in your substrate. Anubias and crypts are great plants, but IMO are not terrific "nutrient eaters", so you'll need to get the fast growing stuff at the start.
You can start a bottle of yeast and sugar as soon as the water clears and the plants are in. It will help the plants establish themselves quicker.
Pick up a 5 gal. paint strainer at Home Depot...put it over the top of a 5 gal. paint bucket and put the sand in it and wash it under the hose til the water comes clean. THEN do the same with the flourite. Flourite comes out at the beginning, looking like coffee, there's so much silt, but keep washing it and it'll run "clear". Put it all into the tank and then put some newspaper or a large plate on top of it to cut down on turbulance and fill the tank with water. If you fill and then dump in the substrate it'll take longer to clear. Just my opinion, again.
Just curious......any thoughts about what kind of fish?
Len

[djlen]

Ok, now we have a somewhat better idea of what we're looking at. Yes, 2.76watt/gal is on the high side(just my thought, others will tell you it's just fine) for starters especially for the plants you describe. But it's definitely workable. I can't stress enough how important it is to load it with as many plants as possible initially, and get some substrate for your filter, from another established tank. Let things settle for a few days, let the plants get somewhat established for a few more, and you can then add A FEW fish. You will need them to supply the ammonia to start the ball rolling on your cycle. By keeping your fish load down and having patience you may not even notice a cycle. The plants will eat up the ammonia and nitrites and at the same time the nutrifying bacteria will colonize itself in your filter and in your substrate. Anubias and crypts are great plants, but IMO are not terrific "nutrient eaters", so you'll need to get the fast growing stuff at the start.
You can start a bottle of yeast and sugar as soon as the water clears and the plants are in. It will help the plants establish themselves quicker.
Pick up a 5 gal. paint strainer at Home Depot...put it over the top of a 5 gal. paint bucket and put the sand in it and wash it under the hose til the water comes clean. THEN do the same with the flourite. Flourite comes out at the beginning, looking like coffee, there's so much silt, but keep washing it and it'll run "clear". Put it all into the tank and then put some newspaper or a large plate on top of it to cut down on turbulence and fill the tank with water. If you fill and then dump in the substrate it'll take longer to clear. Just my opinion, again.
Just curious......any thoughts about what kind of fish?
Len

[djlen]

One more thing......when you do your kH test, fill the vial to 10mm of water instead of the recommended 5mm. Then when you count drops to measure, 2 drops will equal a point instead of 1 drop. So, if you count 10 drops for the color to change your kH is 5. I think the test is more accurate this way than the suggested 5mm way with 1 drop per point.
And you'll find that kH is very important when using CO2.
Len

[NGerdes]

Actually, for the cleaning of the sand and substrate, I heard that an old pillowcase works really well. Just put the sand in the pillowcase and let the water run constatly through the sand and case. You would need to empty out and refill a couple times just to make sure you get everything, but if you don't think it would work, I'll try something else. So should I start out mixing the sand and flourite together or should I layer them?

So if I dropped from a 80W bulb to a 60W (~2 Watt/gal) that might be better?

I already have an established 10 gal tank (running for over 1 year) which I was going to use to "seed" the tank.

I have 3 Gourami's in the 10 gal that I might move over to the 29. This is what I have been contemplating....

New 29
2-3 Rams
6 Rasbora
1 Rainbow Shark
1 Bristlenose
3-4 Cories/Loaches (I want Kuhli, but not sure if I can find them)

Might add the 3 Gourami's too. This may be a heavily stocked tank, but nothing is defanite yet. Because I live in the middle of no where this is always subject to what I can find at the stores. I was thinking of moving the Gourami's, so I could use my 10 gal as a quarintine/hospital tank, with maybe a few guppies or danios to keep it cycled or somthing.

But what about the co2. How much, with my higher KH and PH will I need to add? I'm afraid of suficating my fish.

Any other advice from this now???

[NGerdes]

Just in case you are wondering, I'm still at work so I can't run any tests yet...

[djlen]

I would wash the sand first...it'll be easier to clean and tell when it's clear. Then the flourite which will look like coffee. Be patient it'll come clean. The pillow thing sounds like it'll work.
What kind of filter are you running in the 10? You can use the filter material in that to seed the new tank as well as some of the substrate.
If you load the 29 up with plants and let them establish themselves a bit, you can put the gouramis in. Just give everything a chance to settle and get established first.
Without knowing your kH I wouldn't advise about CO2. Get that reading and we can go from there. Judging by the figures you gave on pH and gH I think you'll be fine for the one bottle of CO2 mix, but check the kH first. kH is a measure of the stability of your water. If it measures 3-4 or higher the fish will be fine. If not you can always raise it.
Len

[NGerdes]

I'm sorry, but I haven't had a chance to run a KH test yet, OK, I'm lying, I completely forgot when I got off work. But I willing to bet that it will well over the 3 mark. As for my 10, I run a UGF, so then I will just put some of the gravel in the 29 to set it up. If my KH is too high, will it be bad if I inject the co2 in? I'll write back when I can get a test on it. I will do a fishless cycle, should I put the plants in and then start cycling, or should I cycle for a day or so, and then put the plants in, or start at the same time?

[djlen]

The kH is the stabilizer for your pH. The higher it is(to a point) the better. It's what will keep your pH from crashing. Try to give me a kH reading if you can. I think it'll be fine but won't know for sure til you test.
Len

[NGerdes]

I'm sorry, but I won't be able to test it for a while. Probably not for another4 hours or so till I get off work. I will definately test it and get back here though. Thanks for the concern and help.....

[NGerdes]

OK DJ.... My KH is 12 and my GH is 11 and my PH is 7.4......... What do you think????

[djlen]

Wow, that is really high. My first inclination is to ask you what kind of test kit did you use, and how old is it? If that's your kH you don't have to worry too much about CO2 and your fish.
Did you test it as I suggested? Using 10mls and counting 2 drops as one point?
Len

[K_S_W_I_S_S]

i tested my kh and it was 10 and my gh was like 20 (i lost count). the test kit i used is tatra test laborett (or something). well anyways, i did them both with 10 ml of water and 2 drops=1 point. is it ok to have a real high gh or not? if not, what should i do?

[FishOrCutBait]

You should be fine with those KH and GH levels, get your PH down to about 6.7 to 6.8 and you'll be rocking!

[NGerdes]

Yes, I used the 10ml... My Kit is from Quarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. So how do I get my PH down? I know that a PH of 7.4 is high, but I didn't think that it would be too bad for plants and fish....

So do you think I will still need to use a c02 injection?

[Elmo]

The reason that you should lower the pH is so that you will have adequete levels of Carbon Dioxide for your plants. The lowering of your pH can be done through the injection of CO2 whether it be through a pressurized or DIY system.

IMO a pH of 7.1 - 7.2 would be more appropriate than one of 6.7 -6.8 as you want to aim for a C02 concentration of ~20-30ppm.

You can find a table to find you C02 levels based on pH and KH here: http://www.floridadriftwood.com/page.asp?id=16#ph-KH

[djlen]

A pH of 7.2 will give you a little over 22ppm. That should, IMO, be your target pH level at this point. Right now you have a little over 14. IMO, 22ppm is a good starting point for someone new to CO2. You want the plants to do well, but until you find out how your tank is going to re-act to the CO2, you don't want to risk the fish's well being. Let's remember that this is a brand new set up and the parameters will fluctuate some. I'm being conservative, but I'd rather you err on the side of caution than the other way around.
Len

[NGerdes]

OK, so I need to bring my PH down and I use the CO2 injection to do that. I spotted a cheap CO2 injector on Big Al's (I'm not too confident with a DIY).

http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi

Will this be a good enough reactor for what I need? And how/should I control the flow as to not inject too much and lower the PH too much?

[Elmo]

The link that you posted doesn't work. What was the product that you were looking at?

[NGerdes]

Try this......

http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi

The name of the product is PLANT GRO CO2 NATURAL SYSTEM - I wasn't sure if I would need a bubble counter or something since I don't need to lower the ph that much.....Actually, they have the same product on Petsmart for cheaper...

[djlen]

These "systems" seem to end up being very expensive in the long run. A 2-liter DIY bottle would work well for you, but if you have the money to spend, go for it.
How's the set up(substrate,plants,etc.) coming along?
Len

[anonapersona]

The Plant Gro system is quite well designed and but for the refill cost, is quite affordable. In a small tank where looks count, I doubt there is a better solution.

The response in any particular tank is dependant on the water, as is true for any CO2 injection system. The max tank size currently is 20 to 30 gallons.

The ramp type diffuser acts as a bubble counter since you can watch each bubble roll along. The prepared mix seems to be "snot" free and since there is no airstone, there is no risk of pressuring up and bursting the generator. The bottle is small and hangs on the tank so there is no risk of syphoning tank water into the generator.

If you don't have access to a power drill to prepare your own 2 litter bottle, or the tank is in a place where the generator and tubing and bubble counter would be unsightly, it is not a bad deal.

If you have a large tank, it won't be enough, unless perhaps your water is of low KH, but low Kh is always a concern, even with this CO2 method.

If you want high levels of CO2 it may not produce enough.

I have 2 of these systems running on 10 G and 20 G tanks, with supplimental DIY on the 20, mostly to allow me to experiment with gelatine mixes. (At the moment, that DIY seems to be leaking with no bubbles that appear in the bubble counter making it into the tank and the solid gelatine + ale yeast + baking soda + yeast nutrient is hardly producing at all, thank God I have the Plant Gro going with a DIY mix to keep the tank stable!) In my 29 G I have DIY CO2 with a DIY power reactor.

My experience is that the Plant Gro diffuser does not work well with larger DIY generators as it will not handle large or double bubbles and the gas is wasted.

[NGerdes]

Well, as stated before, I have a high KH around 11 with a PH of 7.4. My tank is 29 gal. So will this be enough? I'm not too confident with the DIY method. Will this reactor be enough for the tank of my size? I guess I could go with the DIY. I'm sure I can figure it out. I have access to drills and sealants and anything else that would be needed. But since this is my first one, I'm just scared of messing it up. What are anyones opinions, would the plant gro system work, or should I just go with the DIY...

[K_S_W_I_S_S]

i personally dont think it is really easy to mess up anything with the DIY co2... thats what i would do.....

[NGerdes]

As far as the substrate, I'm running a little behind schedule. Big Al's messed up the order or something so they wont arive until Tuesday. But I'll be getting to it. Tomorrow I'm going to start working on making my own hood and stand. That's one thing I do know about. I can do wood work pretty well. My father has his own wood working shop with everything imaginable in it for tools and he said I can use whatever I need. I'm going to make a taller stand that will sit the 29 gal on top with my 10 gal underneath with cabinet doors on each side of the 10 to hide all of my food, nets, equipment, etc... And the wood on the hood will match the stand. I hope it comes out OK. I'll try posting some pics when I get it done. Thanks everyone for the help. I'll at least try the DIY at first to see how it comes out, and if I mess it up, will break down and buy the real thing. My last question, will I need to regulate how much co2 goes into the tank with the way my water parameters are? Do I need a lot, a little? And if I do, how do I do that???

Thanks again for all of the help...

[djlen]

It's really hard to tell what you're going to need until you have the tank up and running, with some plants and fish in it, but with the info you've given, you'll only need a little, but one bottle of CO2 will only give you a little, so you should be fine. :)
You're not going to over do it with one bottle yeast mix in a 29 gallon tank.
Len

[NGerdes]

Thanks a lot DJ, and everyone else. I'm sure that once everything actually gets going, I will be back here with more questions. Thanks again....

[anonapersona]

My water starts out at 8.2 pH and KH of 9 to 10.

You are borderline on the water, but I think that you'd find the Hagen system to be not quite enough due to the size of the tank.

Knowing this, I'd vote for DIY. With access to a good workshop, you've got it made.

I made a reactor based on the vortex reactor for sale by PlantGuild.com. Mine gets airlocked if it is left unplugged and gets CO2 into the water pump, so there may be some trick to positioning the pump so that the gas does not flow into it when you have it off, as in cleaning the tank. There are other plans for other ways to do that, it sort of depends on the filtration you have and what parts you have laying around. I had a large spice jar and bought a small water pump for $8 online. If you have a powerful canister filter, you might use some of that flow to run through an inline external reactor, or a gravel tube type reactor which is the same thing intank, with a bit less flow restriction.

I think many people progress from one thing to the next trying to get to the point that gives the results they need. Some are fine just using a fine misting airstone, others feed into the filter intake. That's a good place to start. Meanwhile, start collecting whatever parts you can find to build a better reactor, just in case you later need it.

Do include a bubble counter as it will help contain a foam over and keep it from getting into your tank.