Chemi-pure ? Nitra-Zorb ?

[DLeung10]

Are either of these two products worthwhile to use in
a freshwater tank ?

[Slappy*McFish]

nah..I wouldn't waste my money on them..you can achieve the same results just by doing a water change.

[superstein61]

Depends on what you want to accomplish. While I don't use those 2 products, I have used Purigen with very good results

[DLeung10]

I would like to keep nitrates levels down.....and reduce toxins.....

Chemi-pure makes some very strong statements about what
it can do :

LONGER LIFE - Fish often live three to four times longer than in any other closed system, fresh or marine.
NECESSARY ORGANISMS - Allowed growth with no danger of pollution.
REMOVES OFFENSIVE ODORS
REAL SEA WATER OR ARTIFICIAL
REMOVES TOXIC ELEMENTS - Including Copper & Phenol
IMMEDIATE ACCLIMATION - with ravenous appetite.
QUICKER RESPONSES - Neurological reactions like fishes in natural habitat.
FRESHWATER FISHES - of all species thrive
ESPECIALLY GOOD FOR AFRICAN CICHLIDS & DISCUS
NO WATER CHANGE NECESSARY - for at least 5 years (length of test only) PERHAPS NEVER!
CRYSTAL CLEAR WATER - Always sparkling blue-white water
NO CLEANING - Necessary for health of fish.
CONSTANT pH - Always within the safe range
NO OSMOTIC SHOCK - 90% eliminated
NO ION ANTAGONISM
ECONOMICAL - Replacement only every six to eight months makes initial cost very low - eliminates expensive water changes - fewer losses

[JSchmidt]

Surely no one believes this could all be accomplished by some sort of resin? I suppose it also claims to cure male pattern baldness...

Sorry, I can't believe that would work, much less work more cheaply than water changes.

Jim

[ChilDawg]

I smell snake oil.

DLeung10, can we back up for a moment and take a look at some of those claims in groups?

"LONGER LIFE - Fish often live three to four times longer than in any other closed system, fresh or marine."--If they only tested this as a five year trial, they are fooling themselves. This fails to take into account anything more than annual killies and some other fish with very short captive life spans.

"REMOVES TOXIC ELEMENTS - Including Copper & Phenol"--They aren't even smart enough to realize that Phenol isn't an element. That, right there, should be enough to show that they don't have the produce, but I'll read on with you.

"IMMEDIATE ACCLIMATION - with ravenous appetite."--How? Does it release the "all clear" hormones for each individual type of fish? Does it turn into a dither for some of the shy ones?

"QUICKER RESPONSES - Neurological reactions like fishes in natural habitat. "--Um, it thinks for them? Acts like them? What?

"FRESHWATER FISHES - of all species thrive"--Of course, you still have to feed them right, and I don't think that Chemi-Pure does that for you...

"ESPECIALLY GOOD FOR AFRICAN CICHLIDS & DISCUS"--Huh. Both of them? The same product makes water great for both of them? I understand that you have to add some trace elements for each, but Chemi-Pure keeps those in the right proportions throughout the five year period?

"NO WATER CHANGE NECESSARY - for at least 5 years (length of test only) PERHAPS NEVER!"--And this product just automatically removes ammonia and nitrites. Where does it remove them to? Does it have nitrifying bacteria? What happens when you change it; do those levels go sky high?

"CRYSTAL CLEAR WATER - Always sparkling blue-white water"--Water should not be sparkling blue-white. That's not crystal clear--that's crystal clear in front of a blue backdrop. Plus, their above claim about all species thriving in this obviously fails to take into account the fact that some of them need algae to survive and Chemi-Pure kind of removes the chance of algal growth for them.

"NO CLEANING - Necessary for health of fish."--bullhonky. It gets down into the sometimes extant anaerobic layer of the gravel?

"CONSTANT pH - Always within the safe range "--Nope, not buying it. The product automatically knows the safe range? How does its cleaning power not affect the pH?

"NO OSMOTIC SHOCK - 90% eliminated"--No/90% eliminated. Very conflicting. Why is there no osmotic shock if it removes impurities from water like crazy? Should it not remove trace elements, too, even if it claims otherwise?

"NO ION ANTAGONISM"--With a resin? Unless it takes out all ions, that's not true.

"ECONOMICAL - Replacement only every six to eight months makes initial cost very low - eliminates expensive water changes - fewer losses"--How large was their closed, change-less system? How stocked was it? What sorts of fish did they have in there? Also, the initial cost is markedly high, but the over time cost would be lower with fewer replacement if their claim stood.

All in all, I'm not buying it. They don't know basic chemistry, they can't write about economics, and they have not released hard data about their product and the tests which it supposedly withstood. I would suggest ignoring this product, using Amquel for dechlorination and its cycling benefits, if you use anything.

[DLeung10]

WOW....nice replies


What about Nitra-Zorb to lower nitrate levels in addition
to weekly water changes ?


Thanks,
Daniel

[ChilDawg]

Daniel,

I think that I would agree with Slappy. I don't know about adding all sorts of chemicals to the water, so I wouldn't add any besides the bare essentials. Plus, good husbandry practices and plants will keep nitrates down, and water changes will finish the job. I'd say that I would do things the old-fashioned way, and change some water and siphon some gravel every however often and leave the chemicals (besides dechlorinator and the occasional necessary medicines) out of the equation.

[bayoupr]

I'd recomend chemi pure. Used it for many years and never had any problems. Water stays crystal clear and parameters are excellent.

[superstein61]

Dleung, while I doubt all those Chemi-pure claims, I do not automatically dismiss the product completely either.

As I noted, I don't use the products you name - but I use a product by Seachem called Purigen. It is a synthetic absorbent that does many of the same things Nitra-zorb does plus more(nitra zorb is made up of ion-exchange resins - as are some other similiar products). there was a thread a while back where someone asked about Purigen - and no one other than myself here had used it. It too was met with skepticism by others who responded but hadn't used it, but I can tell you from personal experience, I have been very pleased with it and my water since starting using it has never been clearer.

My point being that if you think the product may be beneficial, there probably is no harm in trying it. You really aren't adding chemicals to your tank - rather, these products sit in your filter as a form of filter media (ie like some folks who use carbon). While I respect many folks here for their opinions, I have noticed a tendency here for many people to easily dismiss what they themselves do not do (and please don't take it that I am referring to people posting on this thread - actually Jim Schmidt is probably the most knowledgeable/helpful person I have come across here). Yes, weekly water changes will cure a whole lot of ills, but I try to keep an open mind on other options - and since using Purigen, I basically do water changes once every 2 weeks - and my test results duirng that time are in the parameters I desire.

As I said, I have been very pleased with the results I have gotten from Seachem's Purigen. You may do the same using it or one of the products you mentioned. The only way you will know for sure is to try it (especially since the cost is not that significant). Actually using Purigen for me (since it lasts 4-6 months and then can be regenerated) is cheaper in the long run than weekly water changes on my 72 gallon .

Good luck with whatever option you pursue

[DLeung10]

Thanks Superstein61.


How careful does one have to be regenerating Purigen ? I was
also interested in this product but was leary of using bleach to
regenerate.

[superstein61]

The way you regenerate it is pretty easy - and their instructions are clear cut. The biggest concern would be if you used some type of water conditioner that contains Amine Salts - (ie an Ammolock or products like that). Then its possible when regenerating the Purigen, you would chemically create (I am doing this from memory, so i could be wrong but ) I believ Chloramine - which could be released in the water when put back in the tank.

The easiest thing to do is use Seachems Prime as your water conditioner. then there is no issue.

the other options are the smell test after regeneration - ie if it smalls like Chlorine do not use it.

Or, the third option is just toss the used portion after it is extinguished in 4 to 6 months. A 250ML container costs about $9 - and will treat 250 gallons of water. So if I didn't want to regenerate the used Purigen, the $9 worth would last me anywhere from 12 to 18 months in my 72 gallon tank. if you have a smaller tank, well you are likely talking several years of use.

[JSchmidt]

I guess what makes me skeptical about these products is the expansiveness of their claims. How is one to know, for example, that it removes/absorbs all the stuff that is bad that builds up in our tanks? I'd be concerned that someone might think they can reduce frequency of known-to-be-effective maintenance procedures like water changes or filter cleaning because they have this resin in their tank. How does one know that it removes the stuff that's bad? How does one know when it's no longer working? How does one know what it actually does when it's working?

Just curious...

Jim

[Slappy*McFish]

I agree totally...though, I don't think these products will harm your tank and may actually help..I just don't think they are necessary in freshwater tanks.....nothing is more beneficial than water changes...and if a person is doing water changes like they should, then these products just aren't needed, IMO. If you are a very busy person who doesn't have the time to do "regular" water changes, or just simply refuses to do them weekly, for what ever reason, then I would urge you to use these products for your fishes' sake.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
I guess what makes me skeptical about these products is the expansiveness of their claims. How is one to know, for example, that it removes/absorbs all the stuff that is bad that builds up in our tanks?

Jim, I don't necessarily disagree with you on the claims point As you will note above, I too said I doubted all of the claims made by the Chemi-Pure people. That said, with respect to Seachem's Purigen which is what I use, there claims are not as expansive - they are pretty straight forward. They say "Purigen removes proteins, nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and a broad spectrum of organics, yet its impact on trace elements is minimal. It significantly raises redox. It polishes water to unparalled clarity". thats it - no snake oil claims, etc. I have found that Seachem is one of the few companies in the industry that makes good products, has excellent customer service, and doesn't make a bunch of "can do anything" claims - so I tend to believe them moreso than others.

As far as knowing if it does all this, all I can go by is my experience using it. My test results, even with water changes every 2 weeks are alwasy excellent. My water has never been clearer - and my fish are very healthy and active. Is that scientific proof - no, but its good enough for me.




I'd be concerned that someone might think they can reduce frequency of known-to-be-effective maintenance procedures like water changes or filter cleaning because they have this resin in their tank.

Well, while I would not advocate forgoing water changes completely like Waldstad in her planted aquarium testise. again I can only say I have had no problems whatsoever with wtaer changes every 2 weeks instead of weekly since using this. I still do rinse/clean my prefilter to my sump weekly.




How does one know that it removes the stuff that's bad? How does one know when it's no longer working? How does one know what it actually does when it's working?

Just curious...

Jim

Well, Purigen actually changes colors when it is working. It is white out of the jar - and darkens progessively as it exhausts. Once it is dark brown, it is no longer effective and needs replaced or regenerated. So it is easy to tell if it is no longer working.

Hope this helps. As I noted, I know folks will be skeptical - shoot, I am skeptical of many things, but before using Purigen, I searched the net and found several satisfied users - and my experience to date has proven positive. Really though the only way you will probably ever be sure is to try it and test it yourself.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Slappy*McFish
..nothing is more beneficial than water changes...and if a person is doing water changes like they should, then these products just aren't needed, IMO.

OK Slappy, I know you are a huge proponent of the water changes will fix everything camp but . . .


If you are a very busy person who doesn't have the time to do "regular" water changes, or just simply refuses to do them weekly, for what ever reason, then I would urge you to use these products for your fishes' sake.

I am not sure what your comments are intended to imply - however, you seem to be saying that anyone who doesn't follow "your regimen" of weekly water changes is a bad fishkeeper / hobbyist. If taht is the case, the I think that is so far from the truth that it isn't even funny. Since when did doing weekly water changes become the standard? Many reference books do not even advocate that. And how can you ignore/dismiss the technical advances in the hobby? That is what you are doing. Its a shame too because by dismissing these advances over the past 10 years, you would have missed the developments in improved filtration, fishless cycling, new filtration media like Purigen and others , and possibly even the biggest technological advance to hit the hobby yet - the development of a way to get a tank up and running right away via Bio-Spira.

You can stick with your methods, rely solely on water changes or be old-school if you desire, that is your choice and right - but please do not criticize those who do it a different way and choose to take advantage of technological advances they believe are for the betterment of the hobby.

[Slappy*McFish]

Please show me where I criticized anyone. All I said was that these products just aren't necessary in freshwater tanks that receive a normal maintenance routine of 20-50% water change weekly. Or every two weeks for that matter..whichever you prefer. Whatever is required of your tank to acheive "good" levels.(nitrates, proteins, DOC, etc)..some tanks more so than others..the fact that I said "weekly" water changes is irrelevant.
My comments didn't "imply" anything....I said exactly what I meant...and none of my comments were false or incorrect, or an attempt at humor..just the plain and simple truth. Point is, why spend the money on something that just isn't necessary unless you are unable to remove all the "nasties" from your water during any relative amount of time from regular water changes. Keep in mind nature has a very high water volume, turn over rate..in some places the water is replaced hundreds of times per hour. There are many people out there that have water that is high in DOC and nitrates, and proteins, etc...who may just have a busy lifestyle or are just plain lazy(tell me those people don't exist)..those are the folks that would benefit the most from these products.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by superstein61


They say "Purigen removes proteins, nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and a broad spectrum of organics, yet its impact on trace elements is minimal. It significantly raises redox. It polishes water to unparalled clarity". thats it - no snake oil claims, etc. I have found that Seachem is one of the few companies in the industry that makes good products, has excellent customer service, and doesn't make a bunch of "can do anything" claims - so I tend to believe them moreso than others.

While I tend to think those claims are pretty grand, I agree that Seachem is a reputable company that generally doesn't go overboard in its claims.



As far as knowing if it does all this, all I can go by is my experience using it. My test results, even with water changes every 2 weeks are alwasy excellent. My water has never been clearer - and my fish are very healthy and active. Is that scientific proof - no, but its good enough for me.



I'm concerned about the things we can't easily measure, but that may have an affect on our fish over the long haul. Where do pheromones fit into this, I wonder...




Well, Purigen actually changes colors when it is working. It is white out of the jar - and darkens progessively as it exhausts. Once it is dark brown, it is no longer effective and needs replaced or regenerated. So it is easy to tell if it is no longer working.

Hope this helps. As I noted, I know folks will be skeptical - shoot, I am skeptical of many things, but before using Purigen, I searched the net and found several satisfied users - and my experience to date has proven positive. Really though the only way you will probably ever be sure is to try it and test it yourself.

Interesting. It sounds like it might not hurt anything, so long as other maintenance is carried out. I'm still not sure it's really necessary, though...

I hope you'll keep us posted on your experiences with it over the long haul.

Jim

[DLeung10]

Hello again:


My interest in these products is too minimize stressful weekly
25 percent water changes and gravel vacuuming. The fish do
not enjoy the python poking around inside the tank.

I would like to extend it to @2 weeks....but nitrate tests say
no to me.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Slappy*McFish
Please show me where I criticized anyone.

Well Slappy, as I said, I was not sure what your comments were intended to imply - but to me saying


If you are a very busy person who doesn't have the time to do "regular" water changes, or just simply refuses to do them weekly, for what ever reason, then I would urge you to use these products for your fishes' sake.

seemed to me to be criticism of those who don't follow the weekly water change schedule you perscribe. If it wasn't, then sorry, I am wrong - but saying "refuses to do water changes weekly and urging people to then use these products for their fishes sakes" seems to imply that someone who doesn't follow your weekly water change schedule is a bad hobbyist - and that they better do something to help their fish. Maybe that is not want you really meant or intended, but thats the way it reads to me at least.

[superstein61]

Originally posted by JSchmidt


Interesting. It sounds like it might not hurt anything, so long as other maintenance is carried out. I'm still not sure it's really necessary, though...

I hope you'll keep us posted on your experiences with it over the long haul.

Jim

Jim, I will try and do that, thanks

[Slappy*McFish]

A bad hobbyist is someone who refuses to provide clean water conditions for their fish. (and there is such a thing as a bad hobbyist)..but I never named names..so don't take it personally, please. An effective way to make sure the water is "healthy", is to do water changes and monitor your levels accordingly...and as I said, if a person can't or won't change the water enough to acheive these levels, then they should use the products to insure that their water is healthy. IMO, a "bad hobbyist" would do "nothing" at all...no water changes or chemi-pure..I never said that any of these products were worthless, or snake-oil for that matter...I think they do work to a very good degree(especially in salt water aquaria)...but my point was, they are redundant in fish tanks that are already well maintained, and the fact that regular water changes will produce the same results that these products claim to acheive. All I offer at these forums is my opinion, which is formed from my experience as a fish keeper. I have used many "products" over the years, and found none to be more effective than a good old fashioned water change.

[RTR]

Late to the party, but my $0.02 (depressed though that value may be): I have yet to find anything, repeat anything, as inexpensive as water changes. So for me, the practical route is water changes. If I did extensive and expensive water modifications, I would consider the product under discussion largely for the resons stated by JSchmidt - I have confidence in Seachem. But at the moment I do not need that product; I do use multiple others from the firm.

I have to admit the 5-year bit reeks of snake oil. What, other than the fish named earlier and a few others, does not live longer than 5 years? Even with my "inappropriate" (moderately hard and alkaline) water the small Tetras average out over six. Excuse me, that is with good and sufficient water changes - which for me is weekly. :o

[demon_surfer]

superstein61, you use the purichem product you say and it works very well for you. but i am curious, what else do you do to maintain your fish tank? do you do water changes? how often? I am just curious because i have seen several people advocat products like this and report great success while at the same time doing the exact same maintence schedule as people who dont use the product and getting the same results. I am not tryign to accuse you of this is am just curious what your maintence schedule is so i can compare it.

[bayoupr]

Plain and simple, Chemi Pure does what it says.