Red Devil pairs: Disaster waiting to happen?

[tino giardina]

hi,

I just bought a pair of red devils a couple of days ago the female is around 15cm long whilst the male is twice her size. Anyway the male keeps on pushing the female around and nipping on her fins.
There in a 55g with no other fish

I was wondering if 1) i should separate the 2 by a barrier that is big enough for the female or 2) get rid of the male and find one that is smaller or the same size.

Is it hard to rematch up a pair? Also the male is very scared of me when i come near he swims away. Do u think that he is timid or itll just take time for him to get his agression back.

Regards tino

[AikidoGuy]

if they are a true pair keep em, they arent easy to get a pair out of , they usually kill each other before that. i would HIGHLY suggest a divider, mine used to beat my female in a 220gallon tank! click on my www below and you can see what he did to her.

[Rare Cichlids]

A 55g is on the small side for fish of these size, and if you can give them something larger like a 75g or bigger, it would help with aggression and make them more comfortable.

But until that happens, (if it ever happens), you probably should put in an egg crate divider. You can by egg crate diffuser for flourescent lights at most hardware stores. Just cut it to shape and place it in the tank. You can hold it in place with gravel, rocks, suction cups, twine, just whatever gets it to stay put. You can cut a whole big enough for the female but to small for the male. That way if she is being picked on she can get away. But this will take even more space away from the larger male.

So ultimately, you will probably have to either move them to a larger tank or keep only one of them (and that may still be cramped).

Good luck

[Mcdaphnia]

I would suggest the divider method and keep them in the small tank. Use a thick glass divider siliconed in to the tank, but with about half an inch open at the bottom. (It may help to have a "roof" of glass glued at the top to prevent the fish from forcing its way over the divider.) Give the female at least half the room, regardless of the size difference. Set up a power filter so that water is taken from the female's side of the tank but returned to the male's. This will cause a current under the divider from the male's side to the female's. Put a flat rock or whateever the female likes to spawn on right by the divider up against the open slot at the bottom. When the female spawns the male will see what is happening and be able to fertilize some of the eggs through the slot. Some is usally more than enough red devil eggs to overload most hobbyist style fry-raising systems.

Keeping the tank small increased the odds of the male being able to fertilize more eggs. He is more likely to see and react to the females' spawning activities. The small volume keeps his milt from diluting as quickly while it circulates toward the eggs. Excellent filtration, and meticulous water change and maintenance habits are important to success with this method.

[STUNNA]

I wouldn't use a glass divider(I never had fantastic results with it, plus it's not easy to size and it's more permant than egg-crating once you silicone it in), I've bred jaguars and other large cichlids before (chocolates, rd, gt) and I think that the plastic egg crating works the best(cheap, strong, and easily trimmable to fit any tank). It's available at just about any hardware store, plus it is well ventilated and solves the filtration and water movement issue.

[Mcdaphnia]

For aggressive fish like red devils, red terrors, and T. buttikofferi, the glass divider is more permanent than an egg crate divider. That is a good thing. These fish can make an egg crate divider a lot more temporary than you thought it would be. Also once the eggs hatch, the egg crate will allow the fry free reign of the whole tank. If the male is not a good father, the fry will dwindle in number. Fast!

If you do use an egg crate divider, they will still shatter it unless you double it a certain way. If you just double it with the two panels touching, they will shatter one piece at a time. Put two together laced with airline tubing so that there is about an airline tubing's space inbetween the two panels.When they bend the panel to shatter it, it will bend slightly and touch the other panel, gaining support, and not break. Lace it to a piece of egg crate like a floor along the tank bottom, and to a piece like a ceiling that is either laced to a center brace or cut to fit the whole top with access cutouts.

Breaking things is their hobby, so unless it's a permanent divider, it's not much of a divider at all.

[Rare Cichlids]

For this guy to install the glass divider he would have to empty all the water in the tank and remove the fish for a few days for the silicone to dry. Then that would only be giving a 12" fish 1' x 2' of space, permanantly. I've use the egg crate divider a lot. Egg crate is recommended by the pro's and I've found it to be very good, even for very large very aggressive cichlids. And if the Red Devils are really a bonded pair, it's doubtful they will hate each other enough to be trying to break down the divider.

[Mattimeo]

A bonded pair just means it's more stable. There's still no assurance that the male won't try something. Why take the risk?

[Mcdaphnia]

RC, if "this guy" only has one 55, you're right, he'd have fish living in buckets or something while the silicone dried. However if he is serious about breeding red devils, he's going to need some tanks to grow out fry anyway, so getting a new tank ready for them and using the old 55 as a fry tank later would work.

I probably fit your definition of a "pro", and I have used egg crate dividers and I suggest them when the fish are appropriate. If you have aggressive cichlids that can break egg crate, it's risky.

Egg crate used to be a full half inch thick with the grid crosspieces on half inch centers. It is now thinner and more flexible and the grid is on wider centers, so there is much less strength in it than there used to be. Ten or twenty years ago I would have used egg crate with pairs that today would smash it in no time.

I too have some concerns about giving a fish some space. However if you want that males' attention on the female, and you want him close to the breeding site, keeping that space to a minumum is going to help. He still enjoys the water quality of the whole tank he is in, since it is being filtered.

I also gave a caveat that this method is for someone with good water change and tank maintenance habits. Not all of us have the inclination or the opportunity to take that kind of care. Bigger tanks and central systems help out those of us who have little free time or a schedule that can mean we spend some work days each month on the go, perhaps out of state, or even abroad.

[Rare Cichlids]

But thats the thing. He didn't say he was serious about breeding them.

And have you had fish break through Egg crate? I keep some pretty large fish divided with egg crate, and know of people with really large breeding pairs of cichlids such as Umbie's that are divided useing egg crate, and we've never had problems.

[AikidoGuy]

the eggcrate divider is the best way to go about keeping them seperated, if the female is smaller than the male cut out a hole in the divider only large enough for her to fit through. If they are a true bonded pair, that means absolutely nothing lol, the male will still beat the female. As for the fry, the male *usually* wont eat them untill they are large enought to roam free, then they are free game, but as wigglers and for a few weeks of free swimming he shouldnt bother them. besides that they will keep to the females side of the tank, i have seen in with my devils when they bred and i believe mojo has a nice picture of one of his breeders where the fry all stayed on the mothers side. A 55 gal is fine to breed a pair of devils in alot the top breeders keep th elarge adult fish in divided 55 and 75 gal tanks for breeding purposes. i save about a dozen fry and place them in a 30 gal long and then swtich them to a 55gal to grow out long enough to sex(well guess anyway) them. i have a dozen left and i still have an adult female im pretty positive about one of the fry being a male and a nother being a female so i will put them in by them selves and leave the rest didided with the mother and let them grow abit more to se eif i can get any other pairs. so more than 1 tank is nes. if yo uwant to keep the fry for a long period of time.

[tino giardina]

Thanks for all ur replies,

I decidied to go for the egg crate option and it is as sturdy as Mcdaphenia had suggested 20 yrs ago. I however didnt put a hole in the divider but put it on an angle so both fish can access each side. I thought that this might be dangerous but i have some big rocks and some fake plants coupled with the divider on an angle it is hard to see through.

The male and female are still getting to know me and are still pretty shy when im around (unusual for RD). But if the male comes round the other side where she is, she will back right into the corner of the grate and the male has a little push and swims away.

They do interact with eachother but that only lasts for a few minutes at a time as the male will push her around and she eventually swims back to her side. Breeding them isnt high on my priority atm, but i do regular water changes and gravel cleaning every week so the water quality is always very good.

A side question have any of u guys bought RD at larger sizes ie 20-30cm. If so how long did it take for ur fish to become aggressive again. For example i put in a couple of goldfish as i thought that this may bring out their instictive personiality but they just ignored them.

Regards

[Swordfish]

besides that they will keep to the females side of the tank, i have seen in with my devils when they bred and i believe mojo has a nice picture of one of his breeders where the fry all stayed on the mothers side.

Not to be a jackass, but
if you have an eggcrate divider with a hole cut for the female, won't the eggs have to be laid on the males side of the tank in order for them to be fertilized?


In response to tino's last post...i tried the same thing (putting the divider on an angle to give them both access to the tank, free to lay eggs wherever they please, and yet still provide a chance for the female to stay away from the male) and it didn't quite work out. First of all, the male is bright enough to know his way around and get to her any way he can. Secondly, when swimming at high speeds around the tank they bang into the sides of the divider a lot and that really can't be good.
Give it a try and see how it works but a more permanent seperation technique may be needed to have a healthy female.