Firemouth with other fish?

[saganco]

Aquazoo states: "Pairs of these fish usually get along well together. However, if the female is not ready for the male when he wants to spawn, he may kill her. She should be removed until her eggs are developed."

Has anyone else had any problems with the male being overly aggressive (to the point of physical damage anyway) with the female? Is he really physically aggressive to other tank mates to the point of damage?

Also, I have a new 65g (36x18x24) and am thinking about a mating pair of:
Firemouth, Green Terror, Blue Acara, and possibly a Nicaragua Chichlid.

Are these guys compatible with each other when bought at about the same size? Would these 6-8 fish plus some tank mates and cleaning crew be ok in my size tank? What would good tank mates be for these guys? Does the term dither always mean that they are partially intended as live dinner for the cichlids? And last, what would my choices for good maintenance crew be if these cichlids are the ones that I end up with (based largely on the feedback of you wiser folks!)?

Thanks in advance everyone,
Sharon

[Mr.Firemouth]

I have been breeding Firemouths for 20+ years and line breeding them for the last 7 years. I am currently on my 6th generation of fry. I always have at least 100 firemouths in the fishroom. My goal is to isolate an albino and continue line breeding from there.

Your tank is a 65g which is too small for all the cichlids you have named. The blue acaras are o.k. but the green terror and the nics are a gamble for the firemouths. They are not that aggressive.

The best dither fish in my exp. is swordtails. The fry are food and the swords can hold their own with firemouths. I would keep 6 firemouths in a tank your size with about 20 swordtails. I would also add a common pleco for clean up crew.

Heavy filtration will help with water quality along with scheduled water changes. A varied diet is also necessary for good growth and colors.

Males will not kill the females unless the tank is less than 30g and even then the fish don't always kill each other. Most cichlids will do better in 4' tanks.

[is300zx]

I've tried keeping a pair of firemouths before but the dominant male just killed the less dominant one. They are fairly aggressive fish especially to another fish that's similar or smaller in size. A bigger fish like an oscar would be able to handle its aggressiveness though.

It's not a good idea to put that many large cichlids in that size of a tank. You'll need massive filtration system to handle the bioload and there's just not enough tank space to keep all of those fish in there. You have to take each species max size into account. Also since cichlids tend to be territorial there won't be enough territory for everyone to have their own. This will lead most likely to death as the more dominant and more aggressive ones would kill the other tankmates. Mating pairs are even more aggressive.

Dithers doesn't necessarily mean dinner. Some dither fish can be as large as the cichlids like silver dollars. Dithers are intended to help shy fish become more comfortable in their environment. Dithers can also help with spreading out aggression. Your best clean up crew would be a good gravel vac especially with those type of cichlids.

[PhaidOut]

Both posters have good points and I tend to agree with MrFiremouth. Plenty of cover is also something to mention. Yes a male will kill other males and females - especially if crowded and not enough cover present. I don't have totally comparable experience because I have never tried to keep more then a pair in a tank at once.

Nics... Especially if you have a pair and they are anywhere near full size will in my experience be more then Firemouths can handle. They get a mean streak to them.

Green terror... They just get too big too fast and there is a reason they are called terrors. I have never kept one with firemouths or anything else in that size range. The single 8" male I had in a similar sized tank was more then a match for a pair of large severum in breeding mode.

[saganco]

Well... poo! Thanks guys for helping to straighten me out.

If I went with the Blue Acara's - what would be some REALLY COLORFUL and personable companions in a 36" wide 65 gallon? I have a fluval 405 for the filtration and plan on doing LOTS of rocks with only a few plants in little clay pots elevated off the floor to avoid damage from diggers. How many cichlids overall should I shoot for if I want breeding in there?

Also on a different note - flourite is part my planned substrate - is it ok for the sand diggers? Or does it hurt them? Hubby says it's not too sharp, but I'm questioning it because I don't want my babies all cut up or anything.

So, I'm open to moderately "gentle" cichlids (shooting for the 4-5" grown size overall) along with some fast or otherwise appropriate tank mates for the activity and color. Why else do people use "dither fish" and what does the term mean? So what kind of tankmates would you suggest and about how many?

Thanks again, Sharon

[rmcder]

I would hesitate to put more than a breeding pair into a three foot tank. Or maybe a pair and a single tough third fish. As others have advised, nics are too large, and the same criticism would have to be made for the green terrors. Personally, I prefer singles to pairs as it reduces aggression, and I don't have to find homes for 50-100 small fish every few weeks! :rolleyes:

If you're willing to look at other possibilities, I currently have a similar tank (but not as wide) with a rainbow (multispinosa), a spinosisimus, a runty Honduran red point, and a runty electric blue dempsey (which, if and when it gets larger, will be transfered to a larger tank). The Hondurans have outgoing personalities and a nice blue coloration (and the males have red trailing fins). The rainbow has gold and black coloration and is a very active swimmer and very outgoing. The blue dempsey is very colorful, but not as outgoing. The spino is violet with spots, but shy. You could have a single firemouth also. I wouldn't go above four small, single fish, and maybe drop that to three when they grow out. I like barbs as dithers, and have a couple clown loaches as well.

[pugwash]

I'd agree that either 1 pair or a group of 3 different species of males would work in this tank - you have to consider the tank's floorprint (length x width), as this is what cichlids need most compared to the actual water column.

Dither Fish: a school of fish that will bring the cichlid out from hiding, and then swim confidently around. eg, barbs, large tetra's (Buenos Aires), rainbowfish, Giant Danio's

Target Fish: fish that will be/can provide additional live food. eg, swordtails, mollies - their fry providing food.


I too like Firemouth's, and have a 55g (UK) with a pair of FM's, Raphael Cat, and a school of 12 columbian tetra's in a planted tank!

[saganco]

Hmmm, all very good points. You guys are wonderful! Rmcder - I'm going to dig into some of the various fish you mentioned tomorrow when I have some time. I'm not 100% on any one fish yet - just mainly looking for some personality, breeding (I do have an outlet for fish, my LFS is wonderful at trading fish for fish - volume for lesser amounts of other types), size of around 3.5-6" grown (I assume that's about the best size for a 36" wide tank), and COLOR - and of course compatibility with others of a similar type. As many as possible for an interesting tank. There will be lots of caves/tunnels and some plants (mostly in pots).

I would like a couple of breeding pair, preferably different species - then as many colorful tank mates as possible. Too much to ask for one tank? I hope not!

Thanks again,
Sharon

[DeRo316]

I would skip the common pleco as a 'cleaning crew'. If you want a pleco I would go with one of the exotics that wont outgrow your tank, and a mag-float if you want the glass clean.

[saganco]

DeRo316 - actually I would prefer some gold algae eaters and siamese algae eaters IF, and only IF, they can handle the cichlids (blue acara and that type). I would also like a few small but effective and cool looking catfish (bushy nose maybe).

What does everyone think? Gold and siamese algae eaters be ok with cichlids?

[DeRo316]

I dont have experience with acaras and the SAE together but I've read that the SAE will become more aggressive at is matures and can latch on to the sides of some flat sided fish. Never seen it, just read it. I had a SAE and it was a great cleaner but would chase my oscar around until the oscar ate it. Guess the oscar got tired of being picked on.

A bushy nose pleco would be good in your tank, and it stays small.

[saganco]

I have read what you're talking about with the algae eaters latching onto other fish - but only for the Chinese algae eaters, not the Siamese algae eaters.

Didn't I read that plecos have to be solitary? Does the bushy nose pleco share the tank well with others of the same species? How does this pleco differ from the bushy nose catfish, or are they one in the same? What do they do a good job cleaning, and what do they not clean?

rmcder, with three firemouths (2 females and 1 male) won't someone get picked on really badly. I think I recall reading that they aren't "harem fish" and choose one mate each and bully the other one. Or am I thinking of another fish? I've done so much reading and research I'm bleary eyed!

[pugwash]

I have read what you're talking about with the algae eaters latching onto other fish - but only for the Chinese algae eaters, not the Siamese algae eaters.

Didn't I read that plecos have to be solitary? Does the bushy nose pleco share the tank well with others of the same species? How does this pleco differ from the bushy nose catfish, or are they one in the same? What do they do a good job cleaning, and what do they not clean?

rmcder, with three firemouths (2 females and 1 male) won't someone get picked on really badly. I think I recall reading that they aren't "harem fish" and choose one mate each and bully the other one. Or am I thinking of another fish? I've done so much reading and research I'm bleary eyed!

Is your tank currently empty? If so, you could get maybe 6 small FM's and let them pair of naturally. Then take 4 back to the lfs and re-arrange the tank decor and introduce your BN plec and any other fish. American Flag Fish make an interesting alternative to SAE's/CAE's and eat the same stuff, but are more active and swim in the upper levels (in my tank at least).

[coupedefleur]

Blue acaras would fit most of your criteria. Swordtails do seem to hold their own, especially if you can get large ones. If you're not concerned about breeding them you can mix different strains. Platies might work as well, they can get pretty darn big if you give them a chance. Some of the larger killies in the Rivulus genus or some of the big Aphyosemion varieties could work as well.

Chinese algae eaters, in addition to their other faults, eventually decide they don't want the work of eating algae. Bristlenose would work pretty well and they're big enough to get by. Big hoplo or dianema cats would also work, I think.

Breeding african jewel fish like H lifililli would also be a possibility- they have to be about the most colorful fish out there. I'm not sure how other fish would survive around them, though- mine are only about 2" long and they are still behaving themselves.

[rmcder]

rmcder, with three firemouths (2 females and 1 male) won't someone get picked on really badly. I think I recall reading that they aren't "harem fish" and choose one mate each and bully the other one. Or am I thinking of another fish? I've done so much reading and research I'm bleary eyed!
Yes... I'm not sure what I said that led to you thinking that I was recommending 3 firemouth, but that wouldn't be my recommendation. A pair (could be male and male) seems to be the best combination for firemouth.

[DeRo316]

Didn't I read that plecos have to be solitary? Does the bushy nose pleco share the tank well with others of the same species? How does this pleco differ from the bushy nose catfish, or are they one in the same? What do they do a good job cleaning, and what do they not clean?

Im pretty sure bushy/bristle nose pleco/catfish are the same thing. I googled it and it came back with the same results.
http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/images/catfish/bristlenose/Bristlenose1thumb.jpg

They are known to be pretty good cleaners, perhaps the best glass cleaner of the popular dwarf breeds. Besides algae they also need to have a nice peice of driftwood in the tank to munch on. They love other veggies like cucumber, lettuce, etc. Im pretty sure you can put multiple plecos in the same tank, just not males of the same species.

Here is a good profile:
Bristlenose Pleco profile (http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/freshwater/catfish/bristlenose.html)

[saganco]

Thanks folks for such great answers! I went to our LFS (2.5 hours away, closest one is 2 hours away), and looked at the sizes of some of these various fish and have recalculated which direction I'm going.

Now, due to the desire for more rather than less fish, and the overall size (imagining them and seeing the size in person are two very different things for me)... I'm going with some smaller varieties. Fish that are no larger than 4" and colorful and play together well, and might breed. Any new suggestions for this "revamped tank" for me?

I've searched books, online, forums, etc... till I'm just wiped out, but really hate the thought of totally screwing up my tank and having unhappy or dead occupants. You guys are all so wonderfully helpful and I truly thank you - and apologize for "jumping ship" on the thread topic! :thud:

[pugwash]

Hmm, the joys of starting up a new tank :)

Well, you could use Dwarf Cichlids, probably 2 pairs with caves at either end of the tank. Something along the lines of Bolovian Rams, Apistogramma (Cockatoo's are nice). Don't put Corydoras species with these, as the dwarves will peck their eyes out.

You could then add a max 2 schools of tetra's - I like Lemon and Serpae (although the latter get nippy if bored) - perhaps Neon's and Rummy Nosed.

I like Hatchetfish for the top too. This would be a South American setup and all fish are 2-3".



You could do an African one with Kribs, and Congo tetra's - perhaps a Butterfly fish too. These are all 3-4" fish. Just throwing some ideas your way, and assuming you still want cichlids in the mix.

[saganco]

Hmmm pugwash, I like those ideas (except the hatchetfish - you either love or hate those guys - cool looking, but a little too weird looking for my taste, no offence please).

I'll check a little more about some of these species - I was just looking into the cockatoos earlier this evening...

thanks!

[coupedefleur]

If you're thinking of selling fish you breed, you can't go wrong with dwarf cichlids, especially S.A. ones.

From going to various fish auctions for years, I've seen almost all cichlids going for a buck or two for a bag of 6 to 8 young fish. If you are feeding them commercial fish food, you're probably losing money that way. It is fun to breed fish, but if you're doing it to support your hobby they can't sell for less than it takes to raise them.

OTOH, dwarf cichlids (other than kribs) never go cheap. Catfish (except possibly for albino corys) also always sell for a good price. Killifish too. Not to hijack the thread away from cichlids, but killies ship very well and that could be a big advantage for someone out in the country.

You should find out if there's an auction that you could drive to. You can pick up such great breeding stock at one that it's worth a drive.
http://fins.actwin.com/dir/clubs.php?c=1&r=22
http://www.coloradoaquarium.org/about.htm

[Mr.Firemouth]

6 Firemouths are the best answer in a 36x18 tank. 6 will insure a pair. Then remove the other 4. Not because they will be killed but because your tank is to short. Cichlids are substrate spawners that defend territories in the wild 4'x'4 square. That's 16 sq. feet!!! Your tank is 4.5 sq. feet. I like 180g and up for cichlids to do their best. Smaller tanks will work but until you but them in a 6'x2'x2' plus tank will you really say WOW to cichlids.

As far as the plec goes...The firemouths will attack the plec so get one that is cheap and expendable.

If you can sex the fish Then I would selectively breed the best colors together to get fish like this...

[saganco]

rmcder, would the Honduran red points get along with some Rainbow cichlids and T-Bar cichlids (a pair of each)? Or would they interbreed with each other? I am pretty definite now on the Rainbow cichlids and the T-bar's - but don't know if I can get away with a third pair or not in my 65g (36x18 footprint) that has a Fluval 405 filter and regular gravel. My ph is 7.8.

I welcome ideas and comments from anyone on the compatibility and possible tank mates for these two species. I think firemouths are out for this tank, maybe next time! Thanks...

[rmcder]

rmcder, would the Honduran red points get along with some Rainbow cichlids and T-Bar cichlids (a pair of each)? Or would they interbreed with each other? I am pretty definite now on the Rainbow cichlids and the T-bar's - but don't know if I can get away with a third pair or not in my 65g (36x18 footprint) that has a Fluval 405 filter and regular gravel. My ph is 7.8.

HRP could interbreed with sajica, so mixing them might not be a good idea. I really wouldn't even consider three pairs in that tank. To be honest, I have my doubts about having two pairs. The sajica are going to become quite aggressive when breeding, and may be more than rainbows can handle. If they're both breeding at the same time, things could get really messy. For this to work out, you are going to have to pay a lot of attention to blocking the sight lines to the point where you basically physically divide the tank, and the way that rainbows like to swim around, they aren't going to be happy about that. Maybe it'll work out for you, I certainly wish you good luck!

[saganco]

Well, we ended up with a breeding pair of HRP's - but they are alone in a 65g tank :sad: I need to figure out what other breeding pair would work with them - yes it's a 65g, but it's pretty much divided (at least halfway from front to back) visually with caves and tunnels. I figure if I'm going to have little ones, they may as well be something that my LFS doesn't have tons of!

Thinking of adding rainbowfish as the dithers since they prefer the upstairs and the cichlids prefer ground floor. My tank is sorta a two story condo affair :rolleyes:

Any great thoughts on who should share the tank with the HRP pair?

[rmcder]

My iniital thought is that there isn't room for two pairs. I haven't reviewed all the messages, but I suspect that has been my opinion all along. Another single, something tough but not too large would be ok, I think. You MIGHT be able to get away with a pair of firemouth, but I'm not sure if your lfs considers them saleable, or if they can stand up to a breeding pair of hrp. If it were me, I'd consider adding a single female nic or salvini (preference on the salvini in this case). They are both tough, top out at about 8", and have nice yellow/orange/red coloration which would fit nicely with the hrp blue.

As I said earlier, that tank is nice for a few singles where the aggression is lower, but a pair automatically shrinks the tank down. As soon as the hrps breed, they are going to shove everything else into one corner of the tank, and only something that is bigger and very tough is going to be ok in that environment.

What you need to keep in mind is that hrp are a milder form of convict, and a breeding pair of convicts have been known to kill much larger fish by doubleteaming them. My single female routinely chases much larger fish around the tank, so I can only imagine what a breeding pair could/would do.

Good luck with them, and please let me know how things go for you; I'm very interested in how the pair work out!

[saganco]

Well, still undecided on a second pair. Mommy HRP has wigglers now, and I'm just watching to see when it's time to feed them. I also am seriously considering putting them all (mom, dad, and fry) into a 40g breeder with a few peaceful dithers and a small cleaning crew - and making the 65 into more of a community tank (unknown what yet). I would rather have two breeding pair, but it's just not feasible, well.... The 40g breeder has the same footprint as the 65g, but is shorter, thus not as much "upper level real estate" to fill.

Any more thoughts to aid in my dilemma? If moving them is the best idea, I need to know if:
1) mom and dad won't freak out and eat them after they all get moved.
2) do I move the fry first and parents last - or visa versa?
3) what "age" should I move them?