View Full Version : Dwarf puffer, toxic?
isaac newton
04-09-2003, 2:17 AM
Dwarf puffers toxic????? If they die and somehow the body was chopped in half is the toxins released in the tank and if they are, how do you take it out?
cdawson
04-09-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by isaac newton
Dwarf puffers toxic????? If they die and somehow the body was chopped in half is the toxins released in the tank and if they are, how do you take it out?
buy a new tank, you don't want to be messing with that stuff. It's the most powerful neurotoxin in the world that puffers have. I'm not entirely sure that dwarf puffers have it. I had my whole tank go around xmas, it could have been because someone killed one of my two dwarfs, but we'll never know =)
I think that total disposal is a bit extreme. I'd treat the tank with bleach, peroxide, or such and go on from there. I have had puffers kill one another in tanks without later problems with the tank or setup, even after Fugu puffers did in one another. The toxin is a protein, it can be denatured.
slipknottin
04-09-2003, 7:11 PM
puffers toxin is nowhere near being the most toxic neurotoxin.
The toxin you are refering to is Tetradotoxin named after the puffer most notable for it, the tetraodon pufferfish.
A lethal dose of tetradotoxin in humans is about 2 µg/kg.
(thats two micrograms per kilogram)
Tetradotoxin/tetrodotoxin is one of the most potent natural neurotoxins. It does not just occur in puffers - it is the operative poison of the blue ringed octopus as well. It also occurs in other beasts. The FW puffers may tend to use saxitoxin, an anaologue. None of these is produced solely by the fish - they are micobial toxins retained by the fish, in at least some cases produced by embeded/hosted bacteria.
slipknottin
04-10-2003, 6:46 AM
saxitoxin is even less deadly than Tetrodotoxin, a lethal dose is 5.7 µg/kg.
There are a few toxins that are far far more lethal than Tetrodotoxin, such as palytoxin or Batrachotoxins. batrachotoxin is 0.04 µg/kg. And less than 4 micrograms of palytoxin will kill a full grown human.
And just how does the ranking of the "top 10" neurotoxins contribute to the original question? The question is not on poison dart frogs but puffers. When you dealing with these levels of toxicty and have no clue as to which of the specific toxins, if any - as they are seasonal and affected by diet and time in captivity, a bit more pragmatic view and suggestions might just be of benefit.
cdawson
04-10-2003, 11:25 AM
I said most powerful neurotoxin (meaning in nature), because I wasn't sure if the south sea cone shell's toxin was the same or stronger. I know the man 'o war is pretty harsh too.
slipknottin
04-10-2003, 12:32 PM
I wasent answering the original question. I was responding to the second post.
cdawson- the most powerful organic toxin in the world is palytoxin that is emitted from zooanthids.
isaac newton
04-10-2003, 3:33 PM
RTR, Since saxitoxin is not produced by the fish, im guessing that it must be obtained by bacteria in the wild. Am i correct? If so, in captivity, since there is no bacteria that the puffer can retain from ones enviroment, i am concluding that they are not toxic? Correct?
slipknottin
04-10-2003, 4:16 PM
A strong alkali will inactivate saxitoxin.
Why could a fish not retain bacteria from the wild? Captive fish are not bacteria-free. Wood-eating plecos which have lost their gut flora tend to starve to death - as actually do many types not proven to be wood-eaters.
Puffers vary widely in their toxin levels seasonally in the wild, and also from species to species. I know of no study of their toxin maintenance or loss in captivity.
Poison dart frogs have been studied in captivity and do tend to show decreases in toxicity with time, which is doubtless dietary. Whether from lack of the proper intake source or proper precursors or long term loss of specific microflora is undetermined. I would expect puffers to follow a similar pattern, but poison dart frogs can be studied through several generations, puffers have not been so studied. The dwarfs are the first puffer to be reliably bred in captivity, and we are not yet stocked with captive-bred fish even there.
Saxitoxin is associated with FW puffers. That does not say that tetrodotoxin is not present or never present. Nor does it mean all FW puffers have that and no other toxin. Jumping to conclusions about toxins is not wise.
isaac newton
04-10-2003, 6:53 PM
K thx for confirming what i thought... I asked a employee at Petsmart if those dwarf puffers were Poisonous and replyed no.. I was a bit skeptical when he said that due to the fact that almost all puffers have some sort of toxin one way or another.
P.S. Do you think it would be safe to mix crabs with puffers?
You would be mixing predator and prey in the same tank, which is always iffy. The dwarf puffers are so small, they may not prey on the crabs. Whether or not they would harrass them I don't know. Whether or not the crabs would bother the puffers while they are sleeping I also do not know.
I would not mix the two myself. Besides, the crabs would prefer BW, while the dwarf puffers are FW.
isaac newton
04-11-2003, 12:59 AM
Ok, i take the risk.. Ill keep you guys updated.. I keep my RCC on freshwater.. They say you should keep them in brackish water but seem to do be doing fine in freshwater.. I have had these crabs for about a year now.
P.S. Would 3 female and 1 male be good for a 10 gal tank? Does heavly planted tanks make a difference in the behavior of puffs?