Help - water problems! (long post)

[Pam Lowrey]

Hi again everyone,

First of all, thanks for the help w/ my Betta. He is doing much better now that I've taken the tree stump out & put a couple of plastic plants in the tank.

Second, I've put 3 little (< 1 inch each) Neon Tetras in the 5 gal tank w/ him & am now having water problems, I think. (I know, I shouldn't have gotten the Tetras, but it's a long story...) I've had the tank up & the Betta in there since March 22nd. I started measuring water chemistry on the 26th & the measurements have been as follows:

3/26 -
pH: 7.8 (tap pH = 8.8 after adding water conditioner & sitting for 24 hours)
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: didn't measure
kH: ~89.5 ppm (5 dH)
GH: ~125.3 ppm (7 dH)

3/29 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm (tap = 0 ppm)

3/30 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

3/31 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
*did 1 gallon water change w/ conditioned tap water

4/2 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm

4/3 -
Thought the tank was cycled, so added the Neon Tetras

4/5 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
*did 1 & 1/2 gallon water change w/ bottled water (1 gal) & tap water

4/6 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
*did another 1 & 1/2 gallon water change (all tap)

4/7 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
*did another 1 & 1/2 gallon water change (1 gal bottled & 1/2 gal tap)

4/8 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm

4/9 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
* did 1 & 1/2 gallon water change (all tap)

4/10 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
* Went to LFS & had them measure water - they measured the Ammonia at 1 ppm & told me that was more of a concern than the Nitrite levels, so I went home & did a 2 gallon water change (all tap) and added 1/2 teaspoon AmQuel to neutralize the Ammonia.

4/11 -
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
*did 1 & 1/2 gallon water change

4/12 -
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

And that's where I'm at. I can't figure out what's going on & have been told adding an air stone will reduce the Nitrite levels (by the LFS). I now think that the tank didn't really start cycling until I put the Tetras in it. But how long should it take for a 5 gallon tank to cycle? I keep doing the water changes b/c everything I read says that if you can measure the Ammonia & Nitrite levels, they're too high for the fish. But I can't seem to get the levels down. Any ideas?

Thanks for reading such a long post.:rolleyes:

[Allison Reed]

Cycling a 5 gallon shouldn't take more than a week. But, with the new fish, your cycle is obviously getting used to the new amounts of fish waste :D
The daily water changes are good, and keep taking results. I have a 2.5 gallon that i *have* to do almost daily water changes for because of the small amount of water. And i hsould think 3 tetras and a betta would be ok...5 gallon hex? is pretty big for a betta even... I had one in a 2.5 and he was good.

[Pam Lowrey]

Thanks! I used to have the Betta in a "Betta Cove" bowl of less than 1 gallon, so he's loving all the extra space now. :p

[Pam Lowrey]

Hi again... I did another water change today (1 & 3/4 gal) b/c the measurements were up:

pH: 7.4 (down from yesterday's 7.6)
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 1.0 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm

& then remeasured the "3 Ns" right after the change to see what effect it had on the measurements. They were as follows:

Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

:confused:

So, I'm thinking I might need to do a larger water change tomorrow b/c this one didn't seem to reduce the Ammonia at all & still left measurable Nitrites & Nitrates.

My question is, how big a water change can I get away with? It's only a 5 galllon tank, so even a 2.5 gallon water change would be 50% & I've read that changing too much of the water at one time kills off the bacteria, or maybe I'm misunderstanding what I read.

Also, I've been feeding the fish daily & am wondering if maybe I should stop feeding them. The betta could stand to go on a diet anyway, but I'm worried about the little Neon tetras. They're so little I can't tell if they're getting anything to eat except if I see them snatch a bite or two as the food floats down past the betta.

Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[JSchmidt]

First of all, the size of a tank has no bearing on the time it takes to cycle. The limiting factor is the rate at which the beneficial bacteria reproduce, something that has absolutely nothing to do with tank size. As long as there is food (e.g., ammonia/nitrite) for the bacteria in excess of what they can consume, they'll continue to grow in number.

Next, in a cycling tank with fish, you should strive to keep ammonia at or below 1 ppm and nitrite at or below .5 ppm. The easiest way to do this is through water changes. This won't slow your cycle. The water does not contain substantial numbers of the beneficial bacteria (they adhere firmly to surfaces and aren't free floating). Also, as long as there is food in excess of what the bacteria can consume, they'll reproduce. I've never seen any evidence that a cycle proceeds more slowly if you let ammonia get to 3 ppm vs. 1 ppm. We know for a fact that the fish will be more comfortable at the lower level, though.

You can also keep ammonia low by reducing the frequency of feeding to every other day. This won't adversely affect your fish, but it will reduce the amount of ammonia produced.

On thing you might want to find out, to help you interpret your test results: does your water contain chloramines? Chloramines ar a more stable disinfectant added to water by utilities. They are comprised of both chlorine and ammonia. Therefore, water treated with chloramine will test positive for ammonia, often in the .5 to 1.0 ppm range. It's good to know if your water contains chloramines so you can get an idea if water changes are adding any ammonia back to the tank. To check, dechlorinate your water from the tap, then test for ammonia. (If you're using Prime, Amquel or AmmoLock, the test results may be misleading if you use some of the more common ammonia tests. If you don't use one of those conditioners, your numbers should be accurate.)

HTH,
Jim

[Pam Lowrey]

Thanks for the suggestion about checking the local water supply. Duh! I should have thought of that... & sure enough, the ammonia reading from "dechlorinated" tap water that had been sitting for at least 24 hours was 0.25 ppm - the same as my tank.

Makes sense now that I think about it, b/c the local water comes from Lake Springfield, most recently noted for being the source of a few local cases of Leptospirosis a couple of years ago. (yikes!)

Anyway, I did a 2 gallon water change w/ bottled water (confirmed ammonia = 0 ppm) & retested. The ammonia & Nitrite levels were down, finally! Guess this means I'm stuck using bottled water in the tank.

Note to self - neutralized chloramine DOES NOT equal eliminated chloramine!

:rolleyes:

[JSchmidt]

In a cycled tank, the small amount of ammonia you'll with chloriminated water should quickly get taken up by the biofilter. A conservative practice would be to use Amquel as your water conditioner; it would detoxify the ammonia, yet leave it available for the biofilter to process.

While cycling, using bottled water is certainly a good option.

Good luck,
Jim

[ChilDawg]

To reinforce what Jim was saying, I actually use bottled H2O full time, since Bloomington has what can only be characterized as !-ahem-! questionable water. I believe that there is some sort of protozoan found nowhere else in the world in our tapwater and that one of my school's profs found it but I have never had the guts to ask her to corroborate that info.

Since I like consistency with my fishes' water, I use distilled bottled both here and at home. HTH, Matthew

[Pam Lowrey]

Thanks for the advice! BTW - how big is a Nitrite "spike"? I tested my water again last night & found this:

pH: 8.4 (???) - I tested it 3 times - twice w/ a test strip & once with liquid.
Ammonia: <0.25 ppm (yay!)
Nitrite: 5.0 ppm (yikes!!!)
Nitrate: 20 ppm (yikes again)

What could possibly be going on? I did a 1 & 1/2 gallon water change w/ bottled spring water (confirmed pH of 7.4) after testing & am hoping that things will calm down soon. Those poor little fishies are probably way stressed out by now.

:confused:

[wetmanNY]

At that pH, almost all that ammonia is in its toxic, non-ionized form. Water changes are in order.

A quarter teaspoon of table salt will help your fishes over the temporary nitrite spike. The chloride ion in salt competes with nitrite for uptake at the fishes' gills. Later, water changes will dilute it all out.

Ammonia at the tap source means that your water utility uses chloramines. Very toxic. Use your dechlorinator without fail.

Does the pH of your water drop after it has sat out for a day in a bowl? Check this for me.

Would you consider getting some floating plants? Water Sprite maybe. Or just some duckweed. It will make your betta more secure.

[Pam Lowrey]

Thanks!

Tap pH after dechlorination & sitting 24+ hours = 7.4.

Bottled water pH = 7.8 (different brand from previous one, which was 7.4).

The only table salt I have is iodized, is that ok for the fish? Or should I get some aquarium salt to put in the tank?

I'll also get a fake floating plant to go in the tank (my other plants are plastic).

[Pam Lowrey]

4/21/02 Update:

I think my tank is getting close to being cycled. It's been up & running for 30 full days now & the nitrite levels are tapering off (finally).

Anyway, I just read in a book that cycling is a "fixed 36-day process" (The tropical Freshwater Aquarium Problem Solver, by Gina Sandford, p. 40). Has this been verified by other people?

Thanks for all the advice & help! My little Neon Tetras (and the red Betta) thank you.

:D

[JSchmidt]

I don't know where the 36 day figure comes from, but I don't think it's an accepted fact. For example, temperature and pH can both affect the rate at which the biofilter grows, so I don't know how anyone could proclaim a cycle to take 36 days.

Sounds like you're just about finished with the cycle. Congrats!

Jim

[Faramir]

And to answer the question, yes, iodised salt is fine.

[Pam Lowrey]

Thanks!

:D

[ChilDawg]

36 days is probably just how long it took an individual to cycle her or his tank. Take that with a grain of salt--iodized or non-iodized, your choice.

[clowncat]

I'm new at this too and was having a big problem with ph. The ph-lower in the test kit was not doing anything (our city water is very high). I asked our LFS what could be done. He suggested KENT Freshwater True ph Minus. I used 2/3 application the first time, the other 1/3 the second time and a full dose the third time (after all the other stuff, I was afraid to do too much at once). Our ph is now 7.0. For water changes, Kent ph Precise 7.0 Neutral Controller was suggested. I'm doing a 30% water change every 2 weeks (I read change every week, every 2 weeks, 30% change, 50% change; I'm not sure if every 2 wks is ok, but the fish seem to be doing fine - 5 clown loaches, 5 platys and 2 corys in 29 gal - I hope the tank will not be too small in the near future!). I'll do the first change with the Neutral Controller this weekend and see how it works.

[wetmanNY]

Maybe you'd post the ingredients of these pH controllers here for people who are considering using one.

[clowncat]

There are no ingredients listed. The True pH Minus (a liquid) says it contains no phosphates, nitrates or organic chemicals. The warning label says it does contain very acidic hydrogen sulfates. The Neutral Controller (a powder) contains phosphate buffers. I hope this info helps.

[Cearbhaill]

I'm new at this too and was having a big problem with ph. and

The Neutral Controller (a powder) contains phosphate buffers.
What pH problems were you having?

We get cautioned fairly regularly around here about correcting pH problems that aren't really there. Seems messing with pH down products and buffers can start a never ending cycle of fluctuation/correction that is harder on your fish than a steady pH that seems a tad high bookwise.
Excessive phosphates can come back later on and haunt you in the form of algae, also.

So explain your original pH problem a bit and maybe you can find a way to avoid adding "stuff". It's something I try to avoid.

[clowncat]

Our tap water is around 7.6. Everything I read and the LFS said that is too high for clown loaches, even though they seemed to be doing fine. It should be 7.0 for clowns. As stated, I tried the ph lower in the kit and it did nothing. The LFS told me to try the true pH lower and I did. I thought things were ok when I posted the last message. The clowns started getting sluggish, so I tested the ph again. Now it was too low - 6.8. I tried the ph raise in the kit, but I think it was too late. I killed all 5 of my clowns. The platys ( 5 plus 7? babies), 2 cory cats, 1 pleco and some plants all seem fine. I did a water change this morning and will wait for the tank to settle down. I think I'm going to get some more clowns and forget about fooling with the ph. They were doing fine until I started adding all the chemicals. I don't know what long term affect high ph might have on them, but it probably would be better than all the chemicals. Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Pam Lowrey]

Originally posted by clowncat
... I did a water change this morning and will wait for the tank to settle down. I think I'm going to get some more clowns and forget about fooling with the ph. They were doing fine until I started adding all the chemicals. I don't know what long term affect high ph might have on them, but it probably would be better than all the chemicals. Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.

That's what I decided to do about the problems I was having too. I just did regular water changes (1 to 1 & 1/2 gal of the 5 gal tank) every other day [or sometiems every day]. Eventually things settled down. Also, I have no idea where that 8.4 pH came from - it has never been that high since & is now steady at 7.6.

:rolleyes:

[JSchmidt]

I keep clown loaches in 7.6-7.8 water with no problems. Messing with pH almost always causes more problems than it fixes, especially if high-phosphate buffers (e.g., Proper pH) are used.

Jim