Water Hardness Clarification?

[PikeLee]

Okay, I thought I had a handle of things when it came this hobby. I’ve read and searched through many posts. It seems that the more I learn the more I find out I don’t know.

As some of you know, I’m trying to get my water conditions right for breeding some blackwater species. They require a PH of about 5.5 – 5.6, and very low hardness. Which hardness, I’m not sure. Hopefully the answer to this post will help. Basically it’s similar to Apistos.

I know that there are 2 types of hardness, General (GH) and Carbonate (KH). But which one do people refer to when they mention “Softwater”. I’ve always thought it was GH, but I’ve been reading several posts on another forum talking only about KH and it’s significance.

Questions:

1. What is it that people refer to when they mention Water Hardness/Softness? GH or KH?
2. What the heck is dH? Is that short for GH?

I’ve tried the Peat thing over again (thanks WetMan), but I had to use a good amount for it to be effective. Even after using a good amount, a bit larger than softball, my PH drops to 7.0 (not bad) and GH doesn’t really change. Although my KH is now undetectable, I would go for the techniques specified on WetMan site. And they look like a very good method. But I’m in a Townhouse with no garage or fishroom. So the space is limited.

I was inquiring about the Kent Blackwater Extract in an “Aquatic Plants” post, but I am still awaiting a reply.

Any help will be much appreciated, as this thing is starting to frustrate me. Keeping fish isn’t a problem. But breeding is starting to be. Thanks much.

Tap Condtions:
PH 7.6
dGH 7
dKH 3

[RTR]

When a fish is refered to as a hard water or soft water fish without further specification, the reference is to GH, calcium and magnesium hardness. This is significant primarily for breeding, which is what you are interested in doing.

Generally if you not operating at large scale where purchase of an RO unit is practical and within the budget, purchase RO water mixed with your tap might be the best way to go.

[wetmanNY]

Pike Lee, I'm in just the same position. The more I learn, the more I don't know. In spite of everything I've learned from RTR. Further to RTR's post:

Your blackwater fish are responding to two things. One is low total dissolved solids. The other is plenty of tannins and other humic substances. Get these right, and the low pH will follow. That "KH" is alkalinity, a measure of how much acid the water can take up without affecting the pH.

www.thekrib.com archives good discussions about alkalinity ("KH" or "carbonate hardness") and GH or general hardness. George Slusarczuk gave the members of Aquatic-Plants Digest a capsule history of the idea of "hardness" in water, that is archived at thekrib: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hard-slu.html

The expression "dH" stands for "degrees of hardness."

Ion-exchange resin water-softener salts are often dismissed as unsuitable. They discharge undesirable sodium and don't reduce total dissolved solids. But the resins only use sodium chloride for recharging because it's cheaper than potassium chloride, which is also available in the Water Softener section of your local depot. If the resin is recharged with KCl instead, it exchanges potassium instead of sodium for other positively-charged ions (cations) from the water: calcium and magnesium. Now you have water enriched with potassium. The plants in a densely-planted aquarium would take it up. Or maybe just duckweed that you keep harvesting would be enough.

What you'd want in a bottled "blackwater extract"-- which you mention-- are tannins, humic acids and other polyphenols. Peat tea has these. So does a spent green tea teabag in the filter.

So tell us: which blackwater fish are you trying to spawn?

[carpguy]

Wetman—
I've seen you post before on the virtues of a spent green tea bag.

I don't drink green tea, but have a dangerously high black tea intake (really, you don't want to know). Any thoughts on the relative virtues of Black Tea v Green Tea for this application? Any other likely household refuse?

(Pardon the hijack)

[PikeLee]

RTR – I figured that’s what was meant. When I first started in this hobby. I read that GH is more significant and what is commonly referred to, but after I read several posts, mostly talking about the KH significance, I thought I might get the terminology straight.

I was kind of hoping that I had the whole thing wrong, because I was able to get the KH down of my water through Peat. But since KH isn’t as important, I still have the problem of lowering my GH. I would’ve thought for sure that the Peat would’ve worked with as much as I used.

I’m actually thinking of purchasing some RO water and seeing what happens. I’m going to transfer my fish from a 20g to a 10g to make things easier and cheaper when controlling the water. I figure buying 5 gallons of RO water for a 50% change in water in the 10g isn’t going to hurt.

I’m a big Rookie when it comes to RO water. So this may be a dumb question, but if I take out 50% of the water from that’s already in the10g (tap water), and replace it with 50% RO, would I still have to add RO Right or could I just add some Aquarium Salt. I figure that the water in there is already 50% tap and most people use 50/50 RO/Tap when they are breeding.

WetMan – I’ve seen dh used alone before, but I had always thought it was used in conjunction with KH or GH, i.e. dKH or dGH. Well, that’s the reason for that question and thanks for clearing things up. But thanks for the link, that thing cleared a lot of things up, and also confused me a bit. But at least I know why most people refer to ppm now.

It’s hard for me to check the Krib. I do most of my research while at my job. And for some reason that site is blocked from the firewall, so whenever I do a google search and the Krib comes up, I can’t see it.

I bought a water-softening pillow. I believe the manufacture is AP. It says to recharge it with aquarium salt, which I have done. So since you are stating that using KCI can do the same benefits, I should be able to use Muriate of Potash from one of my ingredients for PMDD correct? But I take it that that would only be beneficial if I were to use it in my planted tanks, right?

The reason why I brought up the Blackwater extract is because I wasn’t having that much luck with the Peat, It seems that I would have to use similar techniques to you and that guy who drilled the hole in the 5g bucket to make it effective. And that’s not happening in my house. So I was hoping that the Blackwater was highly concentrated to be affective. Too bad I haven’t received any replies back from that post. This whole water thing is really starting to get the better of me. BTW, what kind of funnel do you use for you peat water again?

The fish I’m trying to breed are dwarf pikes (Cr. Regani and Cr. Noto). I’m also thinking of getting an Apisto, Eunotos, but I want to get some points from the Regani first. I’m thinking that the only thing now is the water. I’ve tried changing temperature, PH, letting them sit in the same water for a while and then doing a major water change, heavy feeding, and the only thing that I can think of that is holding me back from getting my points is the Water softness. But I’m still working on it; I’m not going to give up yet.

It’s funny that I’m having this hard of a time. I had my Cr. Compressiceps (another dwarf pike) breeding with regular tap water. I wasn’t trying though. When I realized that I wanted to do it again, I started to mess with the water. After that, I had no luck, and some dead compressiceps. It seems the harder I try, the more stubborn they get.

Well thanks for the replies guys. I really appreciate it. Hope you can help out with the other questions that I had in this post.

Take care.

[RTR]

KH is equally as important, but you original question was about "hard water" and "soft water" for breeding, and that is GH. KH is the buffering system for most natural waters, and the KH can be said to control the pH.

The salt exchange pillows (whether the salt is NaCl or KCl) do increase the total dissolved solids beyond the original level in the water, so from my perspective are a waste of time and money. You may, repeat may, be able to incoprporate some of the added potassium into plant mass, but very little of the Cl-, my suspicion would be little or no net reduction. But I have not tested it, so cannot swear either way. I do not like replacing something easilty tested for (calcium & magnesium, or carbonate.bicarbonate) with something significantly more difficult to measure (Na+/K+ or Cl-). Not in my fish tanks.

For more than you want to know, try also:

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquasource/hardwater.shtml

If you are going 50:50 RO and tap, you should not have to add any supplement, you are diluting the tap water to lower dissolved mineral levels.

[PikeLee]

I hear you on adding things into the tank that are hard to test for, but it’s always being done. Whether it is for plant ferts or for people trying to achieve softened water. I just hope that this pillow I got isn’t a waste of money and it does the job that purchased it for.

Thanks for the link on the hardness and all. Helped me understand how dissolved CO2 can affect PH a bit better.

I’m definitely going to try the 50/50 RO thing. I’ll be picking up the water tomorrow. I’m also going to look into the price of RO water. I’ve read that that is equally as good as using RO. Hopefully it’s cheaper. My LFS is selling RO water for $1 a gallon.

BTW, do you have any issues with your water RTR? If so, how do you soften your water? Peat?

[RTR]

I rarely do water mods anymore, other than BW. When I decide to play with (breeding attempts) an obligate soft water fish I use peat and veggie filters. I'm raising a group of Flagtail Dianemas right now that I may start dropping the hardness on - they appear to be maturing. But I am unlikely to keep that up very long, just an experiment and a challenge for a few months to a year or so, then back to tap. I've done enough water mods in my life to know better. BTW, my tap is middle of the road, GH 9, KH 7 most of the time, chlorine-only most of the time, but sometimes chloramine (they did warn us) so I have to test for that.

On plant ferts, I have been converted to the Tom Barr school of thought - do regular large-scale water changes (~50% weekly) to reset the minerals and supplement after, don't do routine testing, just partial and add. To me this is much simpler than running multiple Hach and Lamotte test kits. I'm all for the expedient way. But I am not a novice, I can read plant growth problems on my own tanks.

[PikeLee]

Wow, the Peat actually works with your water. Your water is a bit worse than mine. You must have to use a ton.

I’m on the Tom Barr program also. I got my algae and all under control, except for my lileopsis novo-blah blah blah. That seems to attract a big bush of hair algae. At least I think its hair algae. But the rest of my tank is looking good. Those 50% water changes help a lot.

I’m getting a bit nervous though. I’m planning my 2 week vacation and I don’t know anyone that I can fully trust with this tank, hence the attempt for a low-tech setup in my 90g. Hopefully when I get back my tank is free of algae.

Thanks for the info. I got some water Great bear Purified. It states that it was obtained through Reverse Osmosis. So I guess this is basically RO water. 1 gallon is 89cents. I’m going to test the water and if it matches up to 0 GH and 0 KH, I found a winner for the short term of lowering my Hardness. I’m going to try using this for my PMDD mix as well.

Cheers.

[wetmanNY]

Hmm, carpguy, do coconut shells count as household refuse? Could be. Asparagus stems get fed to the blackworms, though it makes their wiz smell funny...

Black tea has been fermented. green tea is merely dried. Polyphenols are what I'm after... the chelation effect etc.

Pike Lee, there are many ways potassium can be combined with anions. But it's the chloride in potassium chloride that fits it as a suitable substitute for sodium chloride. I'm told that muriate of potash is a synonym for potassium chloride. Two positively-charged Na or K ions are exchanged for each doubly- positively charged Ca++ or Mg++ cation. And potassium is more desirable in the aquarium water than sodium, because the plants use it and you prune the plants and it's out of there. That's the whole thing. (I'm a non-chemist, but water softening websites will give you the fuller scoop.)

The granular size and clumping quality of KCl counts in water softening brine uses, so you might have an easier time with KCl that's being sold for water softening purposes. Might be purer? Fewer contaminants to foul the resin beads etc etc?

What do I know, with this NYC tapwater at 14ppm TDS and a KH that titrates with the first drop?

[RTR]

PikeLee - I use the water weed du jour, usually anacharis or horwort, in breeder tanks with bright light for a week or so (actually until the plant growth spurt slows), then transfer the water to a tank or drum with massive amounts of peat and strong current. Then I start monitoring. I use the peat afterward in the garden, no loss involved.

[PikeLee]

I thought you were a pretty cool guy their WetMan…Until you started rubbing things in about your water. Now I pretty much hate you. Just playing. I wish my water were like that.

I’m mad jealous that you have those conditions in NYC. I never would’ve thought that NYC would have that. But it’s all good, I’m not too far away and this morning I took a sample of my girlfriend’s water on my way to work. I couldn’t test anything since my test kit was home. But after you posted your message, I couldn’t wait to go home and find the results. I turns out that she has perfect water.

Her tap (and probably yours, she’s from Brooklyn):
PH 6.6 (them color tests suck)
GH undetectable (from AP Test kit)
KH undetectable (from AP Test kit)

So that works for me. I see her all the time anyways. I’m just going to bottle up some water for my ride home. Hopefully something happens. Both pikes seem like they are somewhat ready. I think the water will help in a big way.

Just one thing; Do you have a problem with Chloramines in the NYC water?

RTR – just to give you an update. I checked the Great Bear Purified water and it seems like its Straight RO. PH: was below 6 (that’s the lowest of my test), GH and KH were undetectable, so all positive results today.

I’ll keep the anaracharis in mind. I have some just layering around in a 2.5 gallon that I use for my amino shrimp.

Well thanks for all your help guys. Now that I found good water, I’m hoping I can get some breeder points back. The points that I got from the Compressiceps, convicts and Green terrors were a big tease. Take it easy.