I cant figure it out,PLEASE! How do I change?

[pumpkinfishey]

Hello everyone! Im fairly new to fish keeping It began about a year ago with one goldfish in a 15 ltr tank as a pet for my three year old boy, I now have that a 10glln and a 31gln and he wants a dog! (I just keep telling him they cant they cant swim!!)
The 31 gallon(U.S) tank that has been going for eight weeks now currently it is home to
five goldfish
four octicinlus (alge eating things)
and 26 more or less (they wont stay still while I count them! ;) )white cloud mountain minnows that I want try breeding at some point in the future

what I really want are some ANGELFISH:D
so once I have rehoused my goldfish does any one know if I can still keep my minnows and my octicinclus in the tank with them!
or perhaps a japanese alge eating bitterling ?
Also would I have to completely recycle my tank before I added the angels?I have looked through lots of sites on the net and found lots setting up from scratch but nothing on changing from one speceis to another? So I'd be gratefull If any one can help me solve my querey!! :confused:

[ChilDawg]

Your tank will still be overstocked, even if the goldies are re-housed. White clouds like cooler temps, so they might be okay with goldies as long as the tank size is increased. Only one angel can be kept in a 30 gallon (possibly two, but I don't recommend it), so you will want to think of a much bigger tank if you want to keep angels.

[pumpkinfishey]

Oh? I had been told that I would be able to keep three to four angels in my tank! an while I realize I couldnt keep all my minnows in there I thought mabey some If they were compatable
my tank currently runs at about 72-75degrees without heating its a very warm house! and so far every bodys happy'n'healthy

[ChilDawg]

72-75 would be about the high end of WCMM tolerance, so they would be very cost-efficient for you. Breeding them is easy, as they just lay eggs like crazy. Protecting said eggs from parents would be a challenge.

You may be able to keep an Angel with the current non-goldie occupants if you keep the house at that constant temp, but not too much more!

[pumpkinfishey]

OK! thanks thats helpfull I think im finally getting some where with this
I think
my minnows ect would be ok with angels? but if the're in it its just the one angel or would two or three be ok with some minnows (Ill be looking for a bigger tank in the fall) is it swimming space or fish waste thats the issue . My LFS told me that the minnows wouldnt really effect things as they are so small and produce so little waste were they right???:confused:

[ChilDawg]

I think it's a combo of those two and the aggression of Cichlids.

[carpguy]

A White Cloud by itself doesn't have much mass. More than two dozen of them do! I think you're pretty heavily-stocked as is.

Angels are cichlids so the aggression thing will eventually come into play and that always has to do with territory. They are also slow fish that will probably be stressed out living in a swarm of minnows.

They also will get fairly large. If you're planning on getting a bigger tank down the road, I'd wait until then for the angels.

[pumpkinfishey]

The agression of chillids!!!???

[ChilDawg]

Sorry. Angelfish are members of a family called Cichlidae (the Cichlids) that is pretty famous in fish circles because of the aggression family members display. Angels are known for being "less than angelic".

[JSchmidt]

Some thoughts:

While you could probably house a pair of angelfish in a 30, that's assuming there are not many other occupants -- maybe a few tetras and some small bottom dwellers -- but certainly not 25 white clouds and some goldies.

The temp issue is something to consider. Cold water fish are accustomed to the higher oxygen levels in colder water and they may not do so well over the long haul (less resistant to disease or stress, for example).

I'm not a goldfish keeper, but the oft-cited suggestion is to keep one goldfish per 20 or 30 gallons of water. Goldies are notoriously messy fish and as they grow, you'll have a devil of a time keeping the water in good shape at the current stocking levels.

HTH,
Jim

[ChilDawg]

Good call, Jim. Don't forget the fragility of calico fannies when you are taking all that into account. They may not grow as large, but they are still waste-makers and don't handle waste well.

[RTR]

And the Angelfish will consider any WCMM fry as DIY sushi.

[scott]

Just wanted to say that I agree with everyone. White clouds are called mountain minnows because they are from cool fast flowing highly oxygenated mountain streams, angelfish are from warm slow moving rivers. The two biotopes certainately clash, and although that is not allways a problem, I think in this case it would be fatal to the minnows to keep them at the temp comfortable to the angels and at the very least a severe case of ick for the angels to keep them at a temperature comfortable to the minnows. I also agree with RTR and I think a full grown angel might even consider a white cloud DIY sushi. (I like that one). Not to mention the zipping of the minnows would stress the angels..............etc

[scott]

Just so everything isn't negative (sorry) you could throw down about ten dollars and get a ten gallon, add a small power head with a quick filter some gravel and plants driftwood etc and put in a dozen of the white clouds and keep them solo. I would imagine you could put it all together for forty bucks, less if you went used.

[TomFromStLouis]

Most of the time when you read about stocking angelfish capacity, the writers are referring to adult angels. And of course it only takes 6-12 months to get them that large. But if you are really getting a larger tank in the fall and buying juvenile angels, your 31 gallon has capacity for maybe 5 angelfish (without other fish in the tank) - depending on size and how soon the larger tank appears. This is a short term situation - you do not want to stunt the growth of the angels. I only mention this in case you have a bad case of gotta-get-some-angels.

hth

[pumpkinfishey]

hi Tom well spotted , YES I think I do have a bad case of gotta get some angels!!:D But not so bad I would put havivg them before their health after reading everything you guys have so willingly written to help me that would be a bit of a shame so I have relented and decided to invest in a second tank after all So Ive started searching the classifieds for a second hand set up (5ft) and leave my goldfish where they are!!! (they are probably quite relieved having only recently moved in an all...) space is precious in my flat so I was a little reluctant hence the gold fish minnow questions but hey! in the end the're worth the space I will just have to get a smaller sofa thanks once again to every one I will be sure to keep you posted on the new tank once it arrives with a whole lot of new questions ;)

PUMPKIN