SW newbie coming over from the dark side...

SuperiorMN · Dec 12, 2005

Hi all,
I've been toying with the idea of a saltwater setup ever since I started reading some of the journals on here. I'm familiar with freshwater planted tanks, and I bought a used 30g to set up as a freshwater tank a while ago. Then I found reefcentral.com, and its gone downhill (or uphill, depending

) since then.

I would really love to set up a tank, but because I'm away at college, I probably won’t live in the same house every year. So, if I set it up at my rented house, I would have to move it every year for the next 2-3 years. I’m a sophomore, but Chemical Engineering isn’t exactly a 4 year program, unless you’re insane. That’s why I’ve been toying with the idea of pretty much getting this all ready to the point where I can sell it to someone, and they can buy sand/rock/salt and get it started. This is very appealing to me right now, because it gives me some experience, and it brings in some money. But, who knows, maybe I'll keep it.

So, here is what I have right now:
- Standard 30g, 36"x12"x16" (LxWxH)
- Standard 10g, 20"x10"x12"
Here is what I will probably be buying used when I visit my parents over Christmas:
- Eheim 2215
- 2x96W PC, one 10k bulb & one 50/50 bulb

I am planning on building a stand for the 30g that will include room for the 10g and eheim. What I need to know is, should I plan for a bulkhead/overflow/standpipe, or will I probably be able to use the Eheim’s stuff without all that? I was planning on using the 10g as a refugium and getting at least one powerhead to aid the eheim in mechanical filtration/water flow. Right now, it just looks like this, without a ‘skin’:

What else do you folks have hooked up below/around your setup that I should plan for? There will be two electrical boxes mounted inside, one on each end, with 4 sockets each. The back will be open, so the 10g can slide in from the front and then be rotated to fit. I realize I'll probably need a skimmer somewhere, and was looking into getting a CPR BakPak.

Hopefully some brave soul has made it this far! What do you all think? Are my plans reasonable?

Regards,
Marty

Mooch28 · Dec 13, 2005

SuperiorMN said:
Hi all,
I've been toying with the idea of a saltwater setup ever since I started reading some of the journals on here. I'm familiar with freshwater planted tanks, and I bought a used 30g to set up as a freshwater tank a while ago. Then I found reefcentral.com, and its gone downhill (or uphill, depending ) since then.

I would really love to set up a tank, but because I'm away at college, I probably won’t live in the same house every year. So, if I set it up at my rented house, I would have to move it every year for the next 2-3 years. I’m a sophomore, but Chemical Engineering isn’t exactly a 4 year program, unless you’re insane. That’s why I’ve been toying with the idea of pretty much getting this all ready to the point where I can sell it to someone, and they can buy sand/rock/salt and get it started. This is very appealing to me right now, because it gives me some experience, and it brings in some money. But, who knows, maybe I'll keep it.

So, here is what I have right now:
- Standard 30g, 36"x12"x16" (LxWxH)
- Standard 10g, 20"x10"x12"
Here is what I will probably be buying used when I visit my parents over Christmas:
- Eheim 2215
- 2x96W PC, one 10k bulb & one 50/50 bulb

I am planning on building a stand for the 30g that will include room for the 10g and eheim. What I need to know is, should I plan for a bulkhead/overflow/standpipe, or will I probably be able to use the Eheim’s stuff without all that? I was planning on using the 10g as a refugium and getting at least one powerhead to aid the eheim in mechanical filtration/water flow. Right now, it just looks like this, without a ‘skin’:

What else do you folks have hooked up below/around your setup that I should plan for? There will be two electrical boxes mounted inside, one on each end, with 4 sockets each. The back will be open, so the 10g can slide in from the front and then be rotated to fit. I realize I'll probably need a skimmer somewhere, and was looking into getting a CPR BakPak.

Hopefully some brave soul has made it this far! What do you all think? Are my plans reasonable?

Regards,
Marty

All depends on the set-up. If this is going to be a FOLWR, it could work well!!

If it's gona be a reef tank, then a sump would be very helpful. You also have to take into conderation wheter a skimmer will be put in the sump or HOB. What about pumps in the sump for wter movement?? Calcium reactors, C02??

I suppose it depends on the type of set-up.

SuperiorMN · Dec 13, 2005

I was leaning towards a FOWLR. What will the lighting support and/or be most suitable for? There are lots of "watts/gallon" rules that I've read, so I don't really want to break it down to something that simple, but 2x96 over a 30gal is 6.4wpg. That's a whole lot of light for just fish and rock in my opinion, but this is coming from a FW plant guy, so..

Lots of researching on ReefCentral at the moment; I just finished a thread about DSBs, more specifically Remote-DSBs, to facilitate nitrate reduction. This is an interesting concept, and I'll be thinking about how (if at all) I can incorporate it.

Thank you for the help!

Regards,
Marty

Mooch28 · Dec 13, 2005

SuperiorMN said:
I was leaning towards a FOWLR. What will the lighting support and/or be most suitable for? There are lots of "watts/gallon" rules that I've read, so I don't really want to break it down to something that simple, but 2x96 over a 30gal is 6.4wpg. That's a whole lot of light for just fish and rock in my opinion, but this is coming from a FW plant guy, so..

Lots of researching on ReefCentral at the moment; I just finished a thread about DSBs, more specifically Remote-DSBs, to facilitate nitrate reduction. This is an interesting concept, and I'll be thinking about how (if at all) I can incorporate it.

Thank you for the help!

Regards,
Marty

That is alow, but opinions seem to vary when it comes to coral. More then watts per gallon (which is still a guideline), it's more about the quality of light. MH and T5's penetrate deeper, and thus are more prefered for lighting.

But quite honestly, id say youd be able to do quite a few corals at 6.4 watts per gallon.

As for a sump, i was wrong. Im also fairly new to saltwater, but after some research, their are several people with excellent looking reek tanks that have no sump.

I think your set-up could work very well.

Crown Royal · Dec 13, 2005

For some inspiration from somebody who knows what he's doing check out:

http://www.melevsreef.com/

Among many other things, he's got a 29 gallon system going with a sump/refugium much like you have. And I think he only has PC lights going, although if you want more flexbility and wiggle-room as a beginner you may look into a lighting upgrade. If you emulate his setup, I think you'll have some success with patience.

He's also got a wicked little closed loop system on the tank (but that's for our advanced class, children).

Many people would tell you to ditch the Eheim. It's definitely not necessary. But it's such a nice filter. You could use it to run carbon occassionally and add some flow.

And as for the DSB thing - do some more reading and research. It's not the be and end all of sandbed theory and you'll get some VERY strong opinions on whether they really work in the long term or not (I've seen holy wars that have been less passionate than this debate). Personally, I wouldn't run a DSB in a smaller tank like a 29 gallon simply because all that sand takes up too much valuable volume in the tank, and it'll look funny using up 1/4 to 1/3 of the tank's height.

SuperiorMN · Dec 13, 2005

I actually already have that site bookmarked, I really liked the sump/refugium setup and the closed loop.

I decided yesterday after some more researching that the Eheim would no longer be "plumbed" in, but will be used every once in a while for water polishing... Exactly like you said.

It would just be nearly impossible to plumb it in anywhere without causing some sort of problem.

The DSB will not actually be in the main tank, it would be a in a container separate from the sump. I'm still debating this, and am trying to figure out how to plumb it in. This is all I have so far:

I also need to decide whether to use an overflow or whether to get the tank drilled. If I get it drilled, should I plan for one drain and two returns, or one drain and one return with the addition of a powerhead on the opposite side to create "turbulence".

Any thoughts? Thank you for listening to me so far.

Regards,
Marty

Crown Royal · Dec 16, 2005

From a water flow standpoint, drilling is probably the simplest way to go - water drains out and then comes back in. But getting a tank drilled (especially a used one that you don't know the history of) is a real hassle.

On the other hand, most commonly available overflow boxes take up quite a bit of room in the tank and require a further pump. Then there's always the risk in u-tube designs of a snail getting stuck and causing a flood. Marc's (melev) custom job if probably beyond the skill of your average hobbyist even though he does provide detailed plans on his site.

The choice is yours. On a tank as small as a 29 gallon, most people I've seen have single drains and returns (like Marc's) simply to cut down on the clutter and plumbing in the small tank and stand.

I'm always a proponent of the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, Stupid! Your remote DSB looks quite complicated to properly plumb and balance. If you do wish to go remote DSB, I'd keep it in the refugium itself. It would still be "remote" from the display in that you could simply unplug the sump/fuge from the display and be gone with the DSB.

Truth be told, I'm an adherent to bare bottoms (the substrate kind, not the lifestyle

) or at least very shallow sand beds just for looks. For one thing, DSBs take a while (~1 year) to actually develop the life/processes necessary for proper nitrification. The one I had never really got going on my 46 gallon, nasty algae attacks took over. It's not a fast process even in with the best of conditions. I would surmise that with a smaller sandbed in a 29 gallon (as opposed to say a 100 gallon tank), that the process would take even longer. Secondly, I don't like the idea of crap simply piling up in a sandbed and trusting that it will all turn into harmless nitrogen gas. I am familiar with the theory and science behind it, but not all of that crap is going to nitrify. To paraphrase one well-known proponent of bare bottoms: "Where the heck do the phosphates go in a DSB, a blackhole?"

I'll get off of my soapbox now and apologize for the rant.

Mahlhavoc · Dec 16, 2005

I am of the thought that the Jobert / Monaco system is well worth a look into. It is what I and another fellow marine aquariast use and I have had huge fortune with it.

I have never had spikes in my tanks even when there should have been. My calcium has never been hard to supplement and my traces always stayed within range with little sumplementation. The nitrification process also seemed to run faster, basically it is like a super bed IMHO.

But this will be an argument for another time between me and the BB peoples =P But it is worth looking into.

mogurnda · Dec 16, 2005

I know I'm jumping in late, but thought I'd pass on a couple of opinions.

If you are going to have a sump, get the tank drilled. Less junk in the tank, lower possibility of disaster. If you have a drilled tank, use a Durso standpipe to keep it quiet.

I agree with Crown Royal that the satellite DSB may be an added complication that will probably cause more trouble than it's worth. In a tank of that size, a small DSB may not be all that effective anyway. Having a wad of chaetomorpha in your fuge with a couple of PC floods over it, plus live rock and judicious water changes will probably be more effective. My current tanks both have DSBs (one even has a "vDSB"), so I am not a barebottom guy. Nutrients aside, I think sandbeds add to the biodiversity of the tank.

Keeping in mind that most of the discussion about sandbed vs barebottom is anecdote and opinion, here's more anecdotal fluff to think about. As CR pointed out, nobody really knows what happens to the phosphate in a DSB. I know of several instances (including one of my own tanks) in which moving a DSB has caused a spectacular algae bloom, suggesting that the PO4 is just sitting there waiting to cause trouble. That may not be a problem in my reef, where I have no intention of moving for some time, and the PO4 is probably consumed by the plants in the seagrass tank. However, you will need to pack your tank and move it every year. Maybe it would simplify your life to have a BB tank, or SSB, rather than having the risk of a crash or bloom. Just a thought.

SuperiorMN · Dec 16, 2005

Thank you all for the information. My one class this morning was a mere 20 minutes long, as the professor arrived late and ended class early, so I've had a bit of "free time" to think things over. (We've received a "dusting" of 6 inches of snow in the last 6 hours, makes me wonder about why I'm really thinking about nice, warm saltwater tanks... :dive2: )

I've taken all your comments about the RDSB into consideration, and along with some additional reading (Jeez those RC threads are long) I've decided its a little too advanced for me, the newbie. All in all, I am very aware of the debate over DSB/BB, and hopefully we won't have to go through that here.

The plan so far is to get the tank (Which I picked up used, but have determined it has only a tempered bottom) drilled, one in the bottom-right and one top-left. Drain using Durso standpipe, as I'm not really thrilled about overflows, and a return using either a Mag5 or equivalent. This should deliver about 350gph with headloss. A single powerhead on the "drain" side will be used to create some turbulent flow, not sure if it'll be constant or timed.

The sump will be a simple 10g. Drain => three baffles => ?skimmer?/?refugium? => baffle => return. The skimmer/refugium is questionable, it depends on if I decide to use one (probably will) and what type it is (HOB or in-sump). If I use a HOB skimmer, the sump space will be a 4" sand bed and whatever macro algae I can find; if its an in-sump skimmer, then I will most likely not have a refugium.

I am building the stand this Christmas, so I may set it up at my parents' house and let it go through that beautiful cycle. Not sure they'll enjoy the sights and smells, but hopefully I can convice them to help run it. This discussion still needs to take place, so take that all with a grain of salt. :duh:

You all have a nice Friday, I have to go shovel my way out to the street, again.

Regards,
Marty


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SW newbie coming over from the dark side...

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