Question regarding mutants, hybrids, and why people hate hybrids

  • Get the NEW AquariaCentral iOS app --> http://itunes.apple.com/app/id1227181058 // Android version will be out soon!

Yoemen

In Boogeyman's closet
Nov 2, 2005
765
0
0
Galveston
Ok, sorry if I am way off base here. I am going from experience with terrestrial plants and animals but:

Most on here say that EBJDs are mutants and not hybrids.

While I can agree they are not hybrids, how can they be classified as mutants? In reality are they not just a recessive phenotype? A mutant by definition is sterile. Yet, lots of individuals are able to breed EBJDs with JDs to produce more EBJDs. So therefore they cannot by definition be a mutant.

Also, the EBJD seems to be a naturally occurring phenotype not one brought on by environmental, chemical, or man made changes. Mutants do not occur naturally with the degree of repeatability that EBJDs have.

I may be missing something here, so please let me know where I am missing the link between EBJDs and being mutants?

Also, speaking entirely form ignorance on the point of fish hybrids, what is with the great deal of dislike people have for hybrid fish? And why is the blood parrot not considered a hybrid? It is a cross between two different species of fish resulting in a viable offspring. Same as crossing a Brahma Bull with an Angus heifer and getting a Brangus as offspring. BTW, anyone who is eating food of anykind is eating hybridized varieties of food, either naturally of the millenia or the last 300 or so years through actions of MAN.

So please educate on these points.....
 

liv2padl

cichlidophile
Oct 30, 2005
2,686
0
0
north carolina
the blood parrot is a hybrid. The term "hybrid" applies when a male from one species mates with a female from another species to produce fry or vica versa. sometimes the term "crossbreed" is also used to denote hybrids. the two terms are interchangable and mean pretty much the same thing.

the hybridization of fish, most notably cichlids, is largely confined to captive bred cichlids. Central American cichlasomines, Lake Malawi mbuna and Haplochromines or Lake Victoria cichlids will all readily crossbreed in the home aquarium if not provided with appropriate mates in captivity. hybrids appear to be very rare in the wild due to natural ecological barriers.

The accidental hybridization of cichlids is a common problem in the hobby and most responsible aquarists cull the fry or eggs. the creation of hybrids for profit, and their unscrupulous marketing as a 'new species' of cichlid is considered very poor husbandry and should not be condoned.

The intentional creation of hybrids has a number of negative aspects:

"Money" is more important than the fish's health. Sadly with the immense pressure on marketers to create "something new" for consumer demand often results in cosmetic/surgical mutilation of fishes. The removal of the fishes fins or tail is not uncommon. from the minimal amount of scar tissue surrounding the removed appendage it must be assumed that this is undertaken when the fish are still developing (under 1 cm). This process must, by its nature, be devastating on the fishes health, and it is reasonable to assume that many fishes do not survive to adulthood. There is also an issue of "quality of life" to be considered - hybrid cichlids, such as the red blood parrot, have deformed jaws and swim bladder problems. Cichlids are reknowned for high intelligence and complex behavioural patterns, such that gross anatomical deformities, impinge on the normal behaviours of the fish.

Philosopical and ethical concerns. many hobbyists, me in included, dislike hybrids because their deliberate creation demonstrates a certain amount of arrogance -- the idea that we can improve upon natural beauty. there are currently over 1500 species of cichlids in the wild. this is a large amount of naturally occuring diversity and it seems unnecessary to create hybrids just because it can be done. this natural diversity is fundamental to the attraction most people have for the cichlid keeping hobby. the creation of designer "Franken-fish" detracts from the natural diversity present in this assemblage of fishes.

The diversity of cichlid species is such that identification is a fundamentally difficult thing at best, and to confuse the issue with fish that do not exist in the wild makes it an nearly impossible task.

Perhaps of most concern is the way hybrid cichlids like the flowerhorn or 'blood parrot' could be mistakenly identified as "pure" cichlid species. It is conceiveable that poor quality flowerhorns, could be mistaken for cichlids such as A. trimaculatus or A. citrinellus and bred back with the original species. this has already occured in cichlids such as Vieja synspilus, V. maculicauda and V. bimaculatus, and this only due to accidental hybridization by hobbyists. with the deliberate large scale production of hundreds of thousands of hybrids, the risk to the hobby is increased many times over. In Australia at present it is very difficult to find good "pure" strains of the Vieja species mentioned above or "pure" discus species such as the brown discus.

reintroduction of cichlids in the hobby into natural settings can become a problem. it already is in Florida. with the threat to many ecosystems globally, the cichlid hobby may provide future sources of endangered fish for re-introduction into the wild. It is therefore important that all cichlid keepers are aware that the fish we maintain in our aquaria are potentially endangered in the wild, due to a variety of factors eg: competition from other species such as the Nile Perch and urban development. In this awareness it is important to strive - wherever possible, to maintain cichlids in our aquariums as they exist in the wild.

Specimen firehorns are created by hybridizing certain cichlid species and culling heavily to leave only those fish with a certain appearance. These resulting fish, although they may be fertile, do not represent genetically stable bloodlines and, when bred to each other, wind up generating a random hodge-podge of mongrel fish which may or may not display the characteristics of their parents, but are almost certain to suffer from various maladies and as a result die at an earlier age.

So why do people keep producing hybrid fish? A one word answer applies here: marketing.

what should you do to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem? JUST SAY NO to hybridization by not buying such fish.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ghost_knife

AC Members
Nov 17, 2005
2,482
0
0
18
EBJD's are a natural fish. not mutant nor anything else. it's a recessive gene that makes them what they are. you never see them in natual conditions because the young are easy to see,


This is young


Adult. thats why you never see them

Also breeders Cull them because they are considered for the longest time as Un natural. Recent discoveries made this known that they are not and you will see more of them as time goes on.
 

CaptnDan

AC Members
Oct 21, 2004
592
0
0
63
Panama City, FL
www.myspace.com
Yoemen said:
Most on here say that EBJDs are mutants and not hybrids.
They are the result of a naturally occurring genetic mutation. They are not hybrids.

In reality are they not just a recessive phenotype? A mutant by definition is sterile. Yet, lots of individuals are able to breed EBJDs with JDs to produce more EBJDs. So therefore they cannot by definition be a mutant.
While true, many people don't want to cloud their opinions with silly little things like facts.

Also, the EBJD seems to be a naturally occurring phenotype not one brought on by environmental, chemical, or man made changes. Mutants do not occur naturally with the degree of repeatability that EBJDs have.
Once again, it's the old "Don't confuse me with the facts, I know what I know". I think it's like that silly theory that the Earth is not flat.

Also, speaking entirely form ignorance on the point of fish hybrids, what is with the great deal of dislike people have for hybrid fish?
Good question. I have read numerous rants on this. Funny, those same people probably don't object to mules though.

And why is the blood parrot not considered a hybrid?
The only reason I can think of is ignorance. They most certainly are a hybrid.

BTW, anyone who is eating food of anykind is eating hybridized varieties of food, either naturally of the millenia or the last 300 or so years through actions of MAN.
Yup, from cows to corn.....



.
 

gagaliya

GNOME POWER!
Nov 20, 2005
943
0
16
NJ
www.happyreward.com
liv2padl said:
The accidental hybridization of cichlids is a common problem in the hobby and most responsible aquarists cull the fry or eggs. the creation of hybrids for profit, and their unscrupulous marketing as a 'new species' of cichlid is considered very poor husbandry and should not be condoned.
i still dont understand why? understood your other points about fish torture / cutting off tails etc, but why is 2 different cichlid bred normally in an aquarium bad? is it just because identification confusion?
 

Yoemen

In Boogeyman's closet
Nov 2, 2005
765
0
0
Galveston
hmm

Well, the part about the mutilation of the fish is definitely a negative. But that would have more to do witht he idiots doing the mutilating then with the actual hybridization.

From the way I interpret, there are two main reasons that people don't like hybrids, that actually have to do with the hybridization:

1. The hobbyist in question are into pure-line fish. Similar to a person who is into purebred dogs and cats or some cultures that have placed a signifigance on their "pure" variety of crop.

2. The other is that hybridizations in fish seem to produce far more deliterious (harmful) traits then they seem to in terrestrial organisms. I can't understand why this would be, unless it is connected to the massive amounts of offspring that fish produce. Ussually, hybridizing between to species creates a healthier offspring while maintaning a pure line eventually becomes very harmful. That is more the case in controlled breeding, as I believe Cheetahs and Leopards are the only real animals in the wild where it is becoming an issue.

A third issue seems to be the reintroducing of these hybrids into nature. This is a slippery slope. Theoretically, introducing a hybrid into a non hybrid population, should be beneficial to the overall population, provided you do not have a vested interest in maintaning the pure population as is...
 

Yoemen

In Boogeyman's closet
Nov 2, 2005
765
0
0
Galveston
Oh, and EBJDs are not a mutation, they are just a recessive phenotype being expressed due to the large numbers of fry being produced.
 

liv2padl

cichlidophile
Oct 30, 2005
2,686
0
0
north carolina
why is 2 different cichlid bred normally in an aquarium bad? is it just because identification confusion?
if you're not going to introduce the resulting hybrids into the hobby, than it matters not at all, since the fish in question will have no impact on the gene pool. if on the other hand, hybrid fish are introduced into the hobby, then the gene pool is affected .. negatively.

Usually, hybridizing between to species creates a healthier offspring while maintaning a pure line eventually becomes very harmful.
hybridizing between species does NOT create "healthier offspring". is the blood parrot cichlid healthier than either of the pure species crossed to produce it? certainly not. if you line breed a species enough, yes you will eventually produce unhealthy individuals due to the expression of indiscriminate genetic nsegatives becoming predominant. the way to avoid this is not to cross species lines however. rather, one should bring in some new genetic material by way of the SAME species but from a different line of genetic code.

hybridization results in the dilution of that very genetic substance which defines a fish species for what it is. it's what makes a jack dempsey a jack dempsey and not a convict cichlid. it's what makes a nicaraguense a nicaraguense and not a festae. or Archocentrus panamense a panamense and not a Cryptoheros nanoluteus.

with dilution division of each species genetic code, the diversity of species in the wild will eventually disappear. there will be no more JD's, no more nicaraguense, no more festae and etc., etc. these will be replaced by a fish species which might be analagous to the "junk yard dog". sure it's a dog and yes, they may be healthy, but when you breed two of them, there's absolutely no telling what will result from that union.

nobody interested in fish wants to see a 'generic' fish. the reason we keep fish, is due to their color differences, personality differences, behaviour differences, size differences, and etc. if hybridization is allowed to proceed to its full extension, these differences that we cherish will disappear and will replaced by an unknown.
 

Yoemen

In Boogeyman's closet
Nov 2, 2005
765
0
0
Galveston
heh

The reason I put in the ussually was because my experience in hybridization deals with terrestrial plants and animals.

Example:

A brangus bull is overall going to be healthier and have better genetics then either of its parents. That is why the cattle market is dominated by hybrids over pure breds.

Same with dogs. I love my pure bred boston terrier. But it is a fact that "mutts" live longer, have few if any genetic defects, show stronger resistance to disease, and tend to be more intelligent and easier to train.

It is the same with plants. Hybrid varieties grow faster and exhibit stronger resistance to disease then normal varieties.

And yes, there are mixes that don't work very well, which is why they are left alone.

As I said above, you would fall into wanting to preserve the "pure" lines. Nothing wrong with that. Just curious. I don't plan on breeding fish anyway, was just curious where all the dislike comes from.
 

joelfish

AC Members
Sep 26, 2006
23
0
0
I've chilled my tone on hybridization a lot since i started in the hobby. i used to be the one that was shouting 'poor husbandry' and 'polluting of the gene pool' and all of those things. I think it's just fine if people want to keep them.

That being said, i have no desire to keep any kind of hybrid or create my own - i want to have what nature has created over millions of years of evolution and natural selection, not something that someone short circuited in their tank. Yes, we have lots of hybrids in food and other animals - i think those people have better intentions and expertise than whoever created the parrot cichlid! Also, I wouldn't really want any of the fancy goldfish even though they aren't considered hybrids. Good breeding is just that.

Then on the other hand, with the recent reclassification of so many species, we may have hybrids and not even know it. Heros esfaciatis crossed with heros appendiculatus? I don't think I could tell. Festivums - I think that these have been split into several different species - how do you know what you've got? How do you know that the local phenotype that you have won't be reclassified into something separate in the future? It's a slippery slope.

I know that among most angelfish breeders, if they could cross an altum with a scalare, it would be considered an absolute feat and they would scramble for the offspring. I think discus breeders have crossed heckel with other discus.

Some of the people that are against hybrids seem to think that us aquariasts are preserving species so that if they go extinct, we can somehow reintroduce them back into the wild - not a job for amatuer fish keepers, I would suggest.

thanks for letting me rant.
j
 
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store