Why Did My Damsels Die?

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SuperScro

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Sep 3, 2006
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Hey all, I have kept freshwater tanks for about 5 years now, and started to set up my first saltwater tank about 3-4 weeks ago. It is a 36 bowfront with an SEIO 620 powerhead, 200 watt heater, and Bak Pak 2r protein skimmer and bio filter.

I started the cycle a couple days before christmas, on the 22nd, by adding Damsels. My LFS told me that if I used anything else, the cycle would take a long time, and using damsels is more natural, and they would probably not pose any problems and are so hardy, that I could bring them back when the cycle ended. But i would probably have kept them.

The damsels were put into the tank on the 22nd, with nothing in the tank at all but sand, so they hid in corners and around the filter. I couldn't find anything to put in the tank for them to graze around.

They remained hiding in the tank, barely eating, if it all, and were mouthing their mouths and gills quickly, like they were breathing heavily.

I added a bubble maker, i took it out of the 3 gallon freshwater, cleaned it with a paper towel, and put it in the SW tank, figuring there was little oxygen.

Today and last night, the two yellowtail damsels did not make it. The one started falling to his side, breathing fast, and turning white in the center of his body, it wasn't ick, I could tell, like the scales turned white or something.

I showed it to my LFS, they said the one probably got beat up by the other, and could not make out a disease. My LFS has experienced people, and they have helped me alot.

The next morning I found my other damsel doing the exact same thing. When the one damsel was dying, the other remained fined, hiding under the bubble maker. Until today it looked the same as the other, with its mouth and gills open, and white in the center of the body. When i say the center of the body, i mean it was white coloring all over, not like the body turned completely white, but the tail and top and bottom fins were blue still. Hard to explain but hopefully it explains something.

They did start the cycle. I added bio spira to help it out and see what it does.

My tank was very warm when they were added, and salt was decently high, about 1.026-1.025, and i tried to lower it. Ph was about 8.4, and some ammonia and nitrite was present.

Currently, salt is about 1.024, temp 80, ph 8.4, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10

If anyone can help me out it would be great, but Im just trying to get to the bottom of things before LR and fish are added.

I was in a rush typing this, sorry for errors or mistakes, but any more questions I will answer quickly, I am active. Thanks.
 

Sonicblast12

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Aug 9, 2006
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Ammonia poisoning. It's not recommended to cycle tanks with fish, it's toxic. Don't listen to your fish store, do some research on the forum. It will save you a lot of money and frusteration.

Also bubble makers are counter-productive in saltwater. You're powerhead should be sufficient, as long as you have some surface agitation.
 

Uncarved Block

Formerly known as "Uncarved Block"
Sep 17, 2006
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Washington
I agree that it was ammonia poisoning. Even if you're "cycling with fish", you don't want to put the fish in first immediately - that's almost certain death! You need to have the tank running for a while, and preferrably with live rock. You should also aquascape your tank before you put in the fish - if you do this with live rock it will greatly help with filtration, and at the very least will make things less stressful on your livestock. If you put in the fish first and only afterwards add LR, your tank will have a mini cycle that will raise ammonia and stress the inhabitants.
 

Lorna

Reef Crazy
Mar 1, 2005
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Indiana
another note to cycling with damsels.......once your tank IS cycled you will have a b...ch of a time catching them to take them back. There is a reason that they sell these fish cheap......please read up on the forums on proper cycling methods and set up as stated it will save you money and frustration and will be kinder on your inhabitants.
 

Fishieness

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Jan 14, 2006
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SuperScro said:
I started the cycle a couple days before christmas, on the 22nd, by adding Damsels
that's why
i'm not going to regurgitate everything everyone above me said because they were all right.
but i am goign to add one thing.....
how is cyclign with damsels more natural? amonia levels in the onces never get that high unless there is some huge huge huge current change and then everything dies. some local fish stores jsut dont thing. or what is worse is ones that do but do otherwise
good luck with the cycleing process and your future tank though!
 

Yash

Trance Addict
Nov 2, 2006
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Knoxville, TN
As the others pointed out, the cause of death is none other than ammonia poisoning. I am strongly against using fish for cycling ... it is veru inhumane, and even if the fish survive the cycle, their gills are permanently damaged by the ammonia, and they will never lead a healthy life. But, I'll stop preaching, and suggest that you read through the sticky here in this forum talking about different methods of cycling. Since you've lost all your fish, now would be a good time to think about fishless cycling. A lot of times, its quicker, and ofcourse, you're not harming any livestock!

Also, as Lorna pointed out, if you do use damsels (or any other fish for that matter), you always run the risk of them not getting along with the others that you might have in mind as a long term stocking plan. In this case, you are either stuck with the ones you have, or you have to try and get those out of your tank. If you have any LR in there at the time, you'll more than likely be looking at stripping all of it down to get them out cos they're reeeeally quick and know exactly what you're going to do when you have your net in hand!

Regards,
Yash
 

Sonicblast12

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Aug 9, 2006
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On second look, you also said your tank was "very warm." How warm is very warm?

Did you acclimate the damsels at all, or did you just add them to the tank immediately? That could also be a factor.
 

SuperScro

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Sep 3, 2006
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Thank you all for the very quick responses, faster than I have seen on any other forum. I will surely look into fishless cycling, I couldn't take having another fish die like this. So, would it be a good time to add live rock? Since it will create a mini cycle and will be better to add it now than later. I was thinking about 20-26 pounds of it and about 10-16 pounds of base rock. Then wait a week or so before I add fish and the parameters are good.
I was just worried there was a disease in the tank, and I didn't have a quarantine tank set up yet, i was planning on creating it this weekend. If it was in fact ammonia poisoning, I guess i will only have to worry about a problem like this happening in the future.

I acclimated the damsels over a 40 minute period, letting hte bag float in the tank, and adding a cup of the aquarium water to the bag every 10 minutes.
What I mean by very warm is 80-81 degrees, working on keeping it at 79.
 

Sonicblast12

AC Members
Aug 9, 2006
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SuperScro said:
Thank you all for the very quick responses, faster than I have seen on any other forum. I will surely look into fishless cycling, I couldn't take having another fish die like this. So, would it be a good time to add live rock? Since it will create a mini cycle and will be better to add it now than later. I was thinking about 20-26 pounds of it and about 10-16 pounds of base rock. Then wait a week or so before I add fish and the parameters are good.
I was just worried there was a disease in the tank, and I didn't have a quarantine tank set up yet, i was planning on creating it this weekend. If it was in fact ammonia poisoning, I guess i will only have to worry about a problem like this happening in the future.
Sounds like a good plan. I would add the rock now as well, and test daily to see what your levels are doing. When nitrites disappear, you can add fish. But I would do it slowly. A couple of damsels (if you want them), test, make sure everything is ok, then proceed. The only thing worse than cycling a tank with the damsels would be putting them in too soon, during the cycle. They would probably die within hours. Gradual changes in water quality are always best. As crazy as it sounds, if you have water problems down the road, you don't want to correct them too quickly.

You didn't have a disease already present in the tank, because there was nothing to carry it.

I acclimated the damsels over a 40 minute period, letting hte bag float in the tank, and adding a cup of the aquarium water to the bag every 10 minutes.
What I mean by very warm is 80-81 degrees, working on keeping it at 79.
That should have been fine for acclimation, and 79-81 degrees is about perfect. Normally I would acclimate fish for a bit longer, but that should have been plenty good enough for damsels.
 

Yash

Trance Addict
Nov 2, 2006
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Knoxville, TN
Yes - it would be okay to add the LR now. In fact, your LR will help speed up the cycle since it will already have some bacteria on/in it which will start the breakdown of the ammonia/nitrITE. Some of the stuff dying off the rocks will also provde an additional ammonia source.

One other thing - when you say "Then wait a week or so before I add fish and the parameters are good." - by this, I hope you mean wait a week (though I would recommend at least 2) after the cycle has been completed and not a week or or so from now?

Let us know how things go for you.

Cheers!
Yash
 
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