Water hardness observations

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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Columbus, ohio
Last night I stopped by reiverix's (John) house to exchange a couple of things. As always I looked at his tanks and we discussed some differnet issues.

As most of you Who have been around awhile are aware, we have some issue with Calcium and magnesium in our water here in Columbus. One thing that is certain is that reiverix's plants do much better than mine. He has the ability to do daily dosing, I dose once a week so I have always attributed the differences to that. We recently purchased some Rotala Macaranda (sp?) and both put it in our tanks. As usual we both saw growth, but Mine was not as good. As coincidence would have it we both tampered with caclium at about the same time. we both saw our Rotala wilt very quickly. I had had an issue with what I thought was excessive GH and John had issue with what he thought was unnecessary calcium levels. We both immediatly saw adverse rection to lowering levels even slightly. On a whim I asked John what his GH was. He was somewhere between 30-35 dGH. I have been trying to maintain roughly 25dGH , and lowered levels when I discovered it was above that. Since the 30-35 test that John did last night reflected his reduction in calcium. it would stand to reason that he normally runs somewhere above 35 dGH.

By all rights this seems very high to me. but we have both found that any time we reduce either magnesium or caclium dosing we see problems with our plants. when we keep those two components up (assuming proper levels of all other fertilizers) we see excellent growth. I plan to raise GH to 35 dGH with calcium at roughly 120-140 ppm over the next several days and see if my plants recover and or improve drastically. The one factor that has always intriuged me is that bolbitus which supposedly does not grow well in hard water will grow for me at a rapid pace while other plants such as Vals and Sag will not grow at all. John has been successful with both vals and Sag, but he has also been running slightly higher GH than I have. According to my plants, my tank does not have adequate GH. According to my tests and most circulated information I have too much GH. Since this all started with tap water GH of 12 degrees, and I worked up from there I am certain that significant softening is a bad thing for me. I have seen nothing but improvement from the time I started increasing things. I still worry about overkill with tose two elements though.

Any thoughts discussion, or additional information that anyone want to add to this is appreciated. It would be neat to see what what others have to say about Ca and Mg with their plants and also what the common GH levels of successful hobbyists are. My theories and Ideas in this realm come with very little knowledge and experience so all the help I can get would be appreciated.

Dave
 
Are you using German measures or US? Here we normally base degrees of GH or KH on equivalent of CaCO3, with a conversion of 17.86 ppm per degree.

There are some pretty rough rules of thumb on Ca:Mg proportions, and several on potential issues with large excess K present. I think the rule of thumb I used was 4:1.
 
I use, and have used the same number of tsps. in my 55s (about 3.85:1) as I do in my 40 (about 5.50:1).
The 40 'runs itself' as I like to put it, while there are more frequent issues with the 55s.
All three tanks are close with regard to plant mass and plant species.
Like Dave I've been leery of pushing these elements, but I am going to increase the 55s and see what kind of response I get. I've been tweaking the Macros, one at a time, with little change. Time to give Mg and Ca a boost.
I'm still learning the value of these two often overlooked elements, and have been amazed at their affect on Cryptocoryne in particular.
Thanks for raising this issue Dave. :)

Len
 
Are you using German measures or US? Here we normally base degrees of GH or KH on equivalent of CaCO3, with a conversion of 17.86 ppm per degree.

If I understand my Ap test kit directions, the results are degrees (german style) my Calcium test reads in ppm so I track them that way. I have not standardized my notes to one or the other. I have found that anything less than 100 ppm calcium and my snails and shrimp suffer.

My Mg dosing I believe I derived from Chuck Gadds calculator it has been some eons ago that I set my dosing schedule up. Since I plan to increase, I will probably re-calculate everything and make sure my ratio's are still in proportion.

Dave
 
From all of my studies from Tom Barr and how he reinforces his original tutorials about dosing when answering my questions, there is no fear to plants or causing algae about overdosing anything in even relatively great amounts. This includes Potassium. The only thing you need to worry about adding to the tank is Ammonium.(I'm not saying dose bleach here, but you know what I mean. :rolleyes: )

From Tom Barr
You do not need to dose as much, but dosing excesses is not why you have algae.

I do not take the above quote from Tom Barr in isolation. He emphasizes repeatedly that dosing anything in excess not only does nothing but good for your plants(or nothing at all) and neither does it cause algae.

I have yet to witness Tom Barr say that someone is overdosing anything. This includes Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Potassium,...any of the Macro or Micro-nutrients. He only says not to dose at all any Ammonium.

Of course, to not kill the fish you might need to show a little restraint.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert here on dosing or Tom Barr's research. So I might be overlooking something. I've only been studying his work for 10 months. And I have not conducted independent research on my own. So take it for what it's worth.
 
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My normal calcium dosing is at a cracking 80ppm during water change. It's been a long time since I came to the conclusion that this is the number I need to dose. I recall that white shelled snails and twisty java fern lead me on the calcium route.

At my last water change I dropped this to 60ppm. I've been thinking about this for a while because I'd also rather not be adding more to the tank than neccessary. All the new growth on my rotala macaranda is white and looks terrible after four days. Too early to say if snails are affected.

A few months ago I cut down on Mg from 15ppm to 7ppm. It took a few weeks for me to notice anything but my anubias eventually started yellowing. As soon as I increased Mg things started getting back to normal.

Potassium is dosed at a steady 20ppm. That's something I've never messed with.

Oddly enough even at those levels my black skirts and corys will frequently spawn. My amano shrimp recently berried and my cherry shrimp (in a 10g tank but same dosing ratios) breed like crazy. They do produce eggs in the 75g main tank but they don't survive the tetra patrol.

Is there an alternative to this? It seems overly excessive but the 75g has been running for 15 months now and I'm happy with the plant growth and health of the livestock.
 
reiverix,

Your tank looks amazing! What a creative setup.

Like you guys, I've also had problems with my plants whenever Ca & Mg are low. My test kit (Aquarium Pharm.) reads 4 out of the tap, but I have to raise it to 9 or higher, otherwise, I'm asking for trouble. All of my plants stop growing and they become pale and translucent.

It only takes a few days to show this deficiency.

Lissete
 
You should see the bunches that I throw away every two weeks. I wish I could send them to you (free of charge, of course), but I don't know how to go about shipping them.

I can't stand throwing out such beautiful plants. When I grow some more (I pruned them recently), you're more than welcome to them. Oh, I do have some snails (that I don't want). So you might want to get rid of them first before you put the plants in your tank.


Lissette
 
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