30 gallon x-tall viv (planning stages, some newb questions)
- Thread starter Inka4040
- Start date
hahaha... i know. the sound effects are ridiculous, aren't they? but, hey... it's all i needed to learn to drill glass.
Wow. Thanks for all the info, dun and mellow! I was looking into the john guest valve, and a couple questions. What do I need to do to prevent clogging? I doubt the water coming through that is gonna be free of particulates, so is that going to affect the working of a drain? I am really still leaning towards the standpipe idea, mainly because it simplifies the process a lot. I hear what you're saying about keeping suction in that amount of water, but it shouldn't be a problem with my little nano tank siphon. As nice as it would be to have a drilled drain in the bottom of the tank, doing that necessitates me getting a cabinet that would work for that, in addition to everything else. The cabinet you sent me is really nice, Mellow, but it doesn't match the decor, and it is frickin 80 bucks for a piece of ikea pressboard. With a standpipe, I can just use a more conventional coffee table and stash all the hardware in my closet. That saves me the cost of drilling the tank as well as buying a pricy cabinet just to punch a hole in the top. Considering that I work at a furniture store, being able to repurpose one of the items we already have ends up saving a good deal of cash, without necessarily sacrificing looks. If anything, some fabric, a bit of velcro tape, and a staple gun can make a pretty nice apron on a coffee/end table.
How much ventilation is one of these setups actually going to need? Would leaving a small gap at the front glass be enough to discourage the viewing pane fogging as well as providing for gas exchange? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but a 10 gallon fbt setup I had as a kid is as close as I've ever gotten to such an undertaking. As for the cat litter wall in the Ghori tank, I don't plan on doing anything quite so ambitious. The lava rock pile in the left corner will serve a similar visual purpose, and I intend to use foliage to break up the straight corner lines, as well as add texture to the flat panels.
Thanks for the info guys, I'll be searching at work today for a coffee table with the right dimensions. Hopefully will be ready for glass in a week or two, and the mister system by the end of the month. So interested to see how the spray pattern is gonna look, and whether I will be able to put real terrestrials in, or scape the whole thing with marginals and aquatics. Here's another inspiration shot that I've been drooling over for the past year.
How much ventilation is one of these setups actually going to need? Would leaving a small gap at the front glass be enough to discourage the viewing pane fogging as well as providing for gas exchange? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but a 10 gallon fbt setup I had as a kid is as close as I've ever gotten to such an undertaking. As for the cat litter wall in the Ghori tank, I don't plan on doing anything quite so ambitious. The lava rock pile in the left corner will serve a similar visual purpose, and I intend to use foliage to break up the straight corner lines, as well as add texture to the flat panels.
Thanks for the info guys, I'll be searching at work today for a coffee table with the right dimensions. Hopefully will be ready for glass in a week or two, and the mister system by the end of the month. So interested to see how the spray pattern is gonna look, and whether I will be able to put real terrestrials in, or scape the whole thing with marginals and aquatics. Here's another inspiration shot that I've been drooling over for the past year.
the cabinet I sent is predrilled, that was part of how cool it was... has a nice hole on the top, and an opening on the back as well. also come in white. It also looks like their double thick pressboard, which is nicer than the 3/4" stuff, but I hear you. When I saw it, I imagined getting hte white one, and buying a birch bark sticker pack to wrap around it... I've seen them on housewares sites. would look cool wrapped in birch. or bamboo. or just leaves. another nice option is the mini rolling ikea lockers, but you'd want to remove the casters. They have 1.5" round holes in the back I think. or the bottom. I forget. I have a white ikea countertop underneath my 2 tanks in the living room, and the white pressed on surface they use is actually very easy to keep clean... something to think about.
The hard part of finding a 24" tall table, is that ergonomically, tables are usually closer to 29" or 16-18". stuff in between is usually things like underdesk cabinets, file cabinets, childrens furniture... 24" wide is also less common, a lot of sideboards are designed around the 16-18" or 32" mark, to accomodate the space between windows and doorways, which is usually dictated by the 16" on center studs in walls. (lol. sorry for the expanded furniture theory!)
ventilation is hard to predict, but I've found in my 5g palu, the gap front and back of the glass isn't enough to keep the glass clear WHERE THE cork is 2" from the glass in the front. but on the left front, the glass is usually clear, except the bottom 1" near the waterline. In the 45cube I'm holding moss in, there is a 1/16" gap across the front, and I still get almost total coverage of water on glass. at 70% humidity, according to my crap zoo med gauge. (almost wrote guage!)
A cheap electric fan built into a tube seems to be the way a lot of the froggers go for in tank ventilation. I've seen a few cool ones, covered in moss etc. Less loss of humidity, but enough movement to keep the glass clear and plants happy. Don't know if you'll need one, but if you do, it's an easy chore.
A 1/4" line might not be the best choice for a siphon. I'd go for 1/2" or larger. You want waterlogged coco fiber to be able to pass. you want leaves to be able to pass. Somehow, some of this will end up in the drainage layer. no matter how careful you are with screening etc.
You could use mesh at the bottom of your standpipe, I have an easy design in mind, and that should keep gunk out of the siphon, but the mesh can also clog, and then you have no way of unclogging it, without backflushing into the drainage layer. Anything designed to really prevent clogging, will usually clog if not cleaned. This is part of the beauty of a drain, you just have a valve under the tank. open the valve, and you can stick a chopstick or pipecleaner up through it to unclog it if it gets clogged.
If you go the standpipe way, I would use a 1.5" pipe, with a coco-hut style cave opening cut into the bottom of the pipe, so that it sits flush to the bottom of the tank, and has a side opening. Then you can easily send a rigid 1/2" line down the standpipe, or almost anything else you might need to run down it. You could also use it as conduit if you decide you want misters in the bottom of the tank... simplifying your plumbing and hiding. You can also put a cap on the top of the 1.5" pipe, ensuring frogs and insects don't get down in there.
If you use epiweb or some capliary foam for the background, you'll have an easy go at hiding your standpipe...
The hard part of finding a 24" tall table, is that ergonomically, tables are usually closer to 29" or 16-18". stuff in between is usually things like underdesk cabinets, file cabinets, childrens furniture... 24" wide is also less common, a lot of sideboards are designed around the 16-18" or 32" mark, to accomodate the space between windows and doorways, which is usually dictated by the 16" on center studs in walls. (lol. sorry for the expanded furniture theory!)
ventilation is hard to predict, but I've found in my 5g palu, the gap front and back of the glass isn't enough to keep the glass clear WHERE THE cork is 2" from the glass in the front. but on the left front, the glass is usually clear, except the bottom 1" near the waterline. In the 45cube I'm holding moss in, there is a 1/16" gap across the front, and I still get almost total coverage of water on glass. at 70% humidity, according to my crap zoo med gauge. (almost wrote guage!)
A cheap electric fan built into a tube seems to be the way a lot of the froggers go for in tank ventilation. I've seen a few cool ones, covered in moss etc. Less loss of humidity, but enough movement to keep the glass clear and plants happy. Don't know if you'll need one, but if you do, it's an easy chore.
A 1/4" line might not be the best choice for a siphon. I'd go for 1/2" or larger. You want waterlogged coco fiber to be able to pass. you want leaves to be able to pass. Somehow, some of this will end up in the drainage layer. no matter how careful you are with screening etc.
You could use mesh at the bottom of your standpipe, I have an easy design in mind, and that should keep gunk out of the siphon, but the mesh can also clog, and then you have no way of unclogging it, without backflushing into the drainage layer. Anything designed to really prevent clogging, will usually clog if not cleaned. This is part of the beauty of a drain, you just have a valve under the tank. open the valve, and you can stick a chopstick or pipecleaner up through it to unclog it if it gets clogged.
If you go the standpipe way, I would use a 1.5" pipe, with a coco-hut style cave opening cut into the bottom of the pipe, so that it sits flush to the bottom of the tank, and has a side opening. Then you can easily send a rigid 1/2" line down the standpipe, or almost anything else you might need to run down it. You could also use it as conduit if you decide you want misters in the bottom of the tank... simplifying your plumbing and hiding. You can also put a cap on the top of the 1.5" pipe, ensuring frogs and insects don't get down in there.
If you use epiweb or some capliary foam for the background, you'll have an easy go at hiding your standpipe...
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All the wood in my room is that dark ebony color. Black could have worked, but that price tag really doesn't lol. Not having to drill also gives me lots of other options in terms of possibly getting something with more drawers. Can't ever have too many drawers.
I really think that the standpipe is the best fit for me, to be honest. Lol just notching the end of one pipe. That's a lot simpler than what I had in mind... Was definitely thinking of using a wider diameter pipe, you think 1.5 is sufficient? With the hydroton, will I really need mesh at the bottom to prevent clogging? The siphon is gonna be manually removing a lot of the particulates, and can be easily cleared outside of the tank, is my thinking. If this is misguided, please warn me beforehand
I really think that the standpipe is the best fit for me, to be honest. Lol just notching the end of one pipe. That's a lot simpler than what I had in mind... Was definitely thinking of using a wider diameter pipe, you think 1.5 is sufficient? With the hydroton, will I really need mesh at the bottom to prevent clogging? The siphon is gonna be manually removing a lot of the particulates, and can be easily cleared outside of the tank, is my thinking. If this is misguided, please warn me beforehand
meh... if you're more comfortable with the standpipe and think you can make it work then go for it. no need to make things more difficult. however... you could drill the back if you were to change your mind... and add a filter block and some fabric hidden in the back to keep particulates out.
i agree that in many cases circulation is better than ventilation. there are several ways to keep the glass clear, though. "european vivs" utilize ventilation at the top and bottom of the front glass. because heat rises the cool air is able to come in the bottom and warm, moist air exits the top keeping the front glass clear. this is one more place you'll need screen however... if you choose to go that route.
if you decide to use a pc fan for circulation instead i'd definitely consider an extra timer for your fan. when the mister runs the fan will likely spray the fine mist everywhere leaving deposits on the front glass. if you have the fan turn off just before your mister runs until about 5 minutes after it's done it should give most of the water time to settle so the fan can do it's job efficiently.
i think the mesh between the leca and soil really is the best way to do things... especially if you want terrestrials in there. it will be your first defense from seriously soggy soil. depending on your plants of course that could be a serious issue.
a common way to drain the soil in vivs seems to be just forcing an airline tube down through a corner of the soil and just start a siphon. not my favorite way... but it works if you didn't plan things out.
you can certainly have terrestrials in there. as well you could have a good selection of orchids, tillandsias, neoreglias, moss, etc. ... especially if you're planning on a mister.
i agree that in many cases circulation is better than ventilation. there are several ways to keep the glass clear, though. "european vivs" utilize ventilation at the top and bottom of the front glass. because heat rises the cool air is able to come in the bottom and warm, moist air exits the top keeping the front glass clear. this is one more place you'll need screen however... if you choose to go that route.
if you decide to use a pc fan for circulation instead i'd definitely consider an extra timer for your fan. when the mister runs the fan will likely spray the fine mist everywhere leaving deposits on the front glass. if you have the fan turn off just before your mister runs until about 5 minutes after it's done it should give most of the water time to settle so the fan can do it's job efficiently.
i think the mesh between the leca and soil really is the best way to do things... especially if you want terrestrials in there. it will be your first defense from seriously soggy soil. depending on your plants of course that could be a serious issue.
a common way to drain the soil in vivs seems to be just forcing an airline tube down through a corner of the soil and just start a siphon. not my favorite way... but it works if you didn't plan things out.
you can certainly have terrestrials in there. as well you could have a good selection of orchids, tillandsias, neoreglias, moss, etc. ... especially if you're planning on a mister.
I think you'd have an easier time if you use eggcrate than if you use hydroton. all you need to do is stack it on some pvc or blocks, and put a piece of screen over it. then you have a really nice platten to work on top of, and nothing restricting your standpipe. you can hide the front of the false bottom by making a gap and putting some gravel.
I think all but the smallest neoregelias would overwhelm the tank. There is only a foot of space front to back, so in the interest of scale, I will be using really small or finely cut leafed plants as often as possible. Will cryptanthus work in the same function as neos, in regards to dart frogs? Do dendrobates leucomelas even use broms in that way? I will look more into drilling a drain in the bottom, but given the telephone table I'd like to use as a stand, it might not be entirely feasible.
Dun, if I drill a drain in the side of the tank, doesn't that limit its ability to efficiently empty the tank of water? It seems that wouldn't be able to drain any more thoroughly than a siphon/stand pipe combination.
False bottom is another thing that needs more looking into. I'm familiar with the concept, but just need to weigh the pros and cons of that system over leca. Will a layer of eggcrate really be able to support the weight of all the hardscape I plan to be laying on top? If I do end up going the leca route, a mesh screen is a given. False bottom does seem to be more efficient in the long run than a hydroton drainage layer, but won't I need to lay some down on top of the eggcrate any way?
Keeping the front clear seems like a whole new PITA. I thought a viv was supposed to be less complicated than setting up a reef tank, lol.
Dun, if I drill a drain in the side of the tank, doesn't that limit its ability to efficiently empty the tank of water? It seems that wouldn't be able to drain any more thoroughly than a siphon/stand pipe combination.
False bottom is another thing that needs more looking into. I'm familiar with the concept, but just need to weigh the pros and cons of that system over leca. Will a layer of eggcrate really be able to support the weight of all the hardscape I plan to be laying on top? If I do end up going the leca route, a mesh screen is a given. False bottom does seem to be more efficient in the long run than a hydroton drainage layer, but won't I need to lay some down on top of the eggcrate any way?
Keeping the front clear seems like a whole new PITA. I thought a viv was supposed to be less complicated than setting up a reef tank, lol.
egg crate is super easy. you'd want a couple of strips that are the legs, one for across the front, one across the back, and maybe 3 or 4 front to back including the sides. Then you have 1 piece that is on top of those, that is about 1-2" narrower than your tank front to back. (and sides if you want to hide there too. I like to be able to see under it from one side, myself. You can also cut a hole in the top for your standpipe. This will definitely be strong enough to hold the weight above.
Then you zip tie it together. it's super easy. once it's a rigid form, you just wrap it in window screen and throw another zip tie through here and there to keep it on. this goes in the tank and you can start stacking any non-soil hardscape that needs to be buried etc...
once all your lower hardscape is placed, your first step is to conceal it in place with your surrounding gravel. You want this to be about 1/2" taller (just around the edges) than your false bottom to account for settling. Now you add a layer of charcoal, and then your soil. (some people put a layer of sphagnum first, then charcoal and soil)
Then you zip tie it together. it's super easy. once it's a rigid form, you just wrap it in window screen and throw another zip tie through here and there to keep it on. this goes in the tank and you can start stacking any non-soil hardscape that needs to be buried etc...
once all your lower hardscape is placed, your first step is to conceal it in place with your surrounding gravel. You want this to be about 1/2" taller (just around the edges) than your false bottom to account for settling. Now you add a layer of charcoal, and then your soil. (some people put a layer of sphagnum first, then charcoal and soil)
