Ammonia, Hard to Find -- Poss Solution?

[mooman]

Where does one put a sponge in a Penguin or Emporer?

That's why I use aquaclears, well actually I just use sponge filters, but if I was going to buy a HOB it would be an aquaclear. To answer your question I'm pretty sure you can simply remove the cartridge and just jam some filter sponges in there. You'll save a bundle on replacement cost too.

Possible with the types with double Bio Wheels to remove one to put in the new tank and put a new one in the old tank? How would that affect the old tank's bacteria colony?

The thing to remember with bacteria is the fact that they exhibit logrithmic growth (1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 4.......). This is why the cycling process takes soooooo long. You are starting out with very few bacteria. Once your tank is cycled however there are so many bacteria, that removing some of them on a filter sponge is not a problem. If you were to remove one of two biowheels in a tank then you would cut the population in half. But since there are so many in a fully cycled tank, it only takes one reproductive cycle to regain ALL of the bacteria that you removed. Basically instead of having the bacteria population you had on the last day of your cycle, you would have the population that you had one or two days before. You would want to keep an eye on ammonia levels for a day or two, but after that, you're set.

 

[mishi8]

Also, yah, Big Als and Foster and Smith would also mark it up, but how many people just buy ONE thing from those places? When I buy on line it's very seldom just one item, I try to buy everything at one place to save on shipping. I'd just add a bottle of ammonia to my order. If those places were smart, they'd market their own "brands" in 4-8oz small bottles and sell them with "kits" of cultured gravel and stuff or even with Bio-Spira

It certainly would make it easier to buy a kit like that, but those same LFSs would have to buy into the process of fishless cycling, and encourage the public to go that route. I don't know about you, but I haven't found a LFS yet that didn't give me an odd look and said "you can't add ammonia to your tank! You need to buy some hardy fish to start the cycle!" Sure there are some staff out there who are knowledgeable about fishless cycling, but they are few and far between.

In addition, I think it would be questionable giving such a kit to a complete newbie who hasn't ever heard about "cycling," and is expecting to have a fool-proof experience by setting up a tank and just putting in whatever fish they pick. The learning curve can be huge for some, and I could even see some people putting in ammonia after the fish have been added. I think it may just be better for someone to put more thought into it, learn about the cycling process, make a decision on how they will cycle their tank, and then go about finding the right products to make it happen.

Finally, yup, I am cheap about some stuff...while I would pay a fair price for quality products, there's no way I'd pay a premium for ammonia when I can get it at my local grocer or Walmart for next to nothing.

 

[ParadoxLiz]

Lately I've been wondering whether a small specialized fish store, which sells all the accessories you need, keeps a small stock of fish, decent stock of plants, does special ordering for fish and plants and does classes / training (as well as tank setup / servicing) would be at all successful. It seems there's a complete lack of such a beast.

As a newbie (started last month), I know I'd be willing (and was willing back then) to take a class on how to properly set up a tank, care for sick fishies, etc.; right now I'd be very interested in a class or two about planted tanks - in fact, imagine how fun it would be to have a class wherein you set up a small (7g or less?) planted tank (will the plants survive the trip home without being completely submerged?) with the instructor there to help with substrate, filtration, plant selection, design/layout, planting, fertilization, CO2, fish choices (you'd have to come back later to get the fish (after a proper cycle)), etc. etc. At the end of the class, you walk out with a beautifully planted tank and all the knowledge you need to cycle it and then come back and get your fishies.

Seems like that would be much more enjoyable than wallowing in ignorance... <g>

Liz

 

[Hannys_Papa]

I have to go with Roan Art here. I woud also rather buy a "known safe" type of ammonia than risking it when buying something from a hardware store or walmart. I'll explain later why.

I'd also pay a good price for it - after all you dont need much. I bought a 1/2G bottle when i started and now the 99.9% full bottle is sitting around. I am not gonna use it anywhere else (to clean for example) - after all it smells like cat pee. ;-)
That said - i dont see anything wrong with 5$ for a 4-8oz bottle (as an example). I'd also think the advantage would be for the bottle to say exactly how high the ammonia concentration in the bottle is - making it much easier to dose it.

Now i dont want to blow this thread out of proportion so please excuse my little longer post but here is why i am not too fond of the "pure" ammonia from an unknown source. I spent a good 10+ hours researching ammonia online. In the course of that i came across a lot of "horror" stories - ammonia that was pure but wasnt. Said it had surfactants but didnt foam. People killing fish, tearing down whole tanks etc. Ammonia that was "known" to be ok - but the manufacturer changed ingredients etc.
But even all that aside - lets say you have a bottle that is "known" to be safe and the ingredients listed are 100% ok - heres a little story that made me think.

A few years back i stayed at a familys home that owned a vineyard. The husband drove trucks for a while to support the income when the vineyard didnt make enough money. He also drove tanker trucks and collected wine from other smaller vineyards that ended up being sold as a "blend" type of wine (cheap or economy wine). He told me that a few times they just used the same tanks that just had olive oil in them, gave them a quick rinse and in went the wine. After all the stuff got processed before being bottled so it wasnt a big deal.
Moral ?

We are talking about a (floor) cleaning product here - ammonia. Nothing anyone would ever "consume" (eat/ drink) and obviously doesnt/ wont be handled in a "clean" fashion. Who knows what was in the storage tank they pumped the ammonoi into before it was bottled ? I am sure it was cleaned and flushed - but did a little from the previous chemical remain ?
After all it doesnt matter if there was some dawn dish liquid, paint stripper or garden fertilizer in that tank. The 0.001 percent after cleaning wont really make a difference in the ammonia. Nobody is gonna ingest it so it doesnt have to be 100% pure.

I know i may sound paranoid or whatever - but some people might see my point. If not it might have to do with the fact i am german and cant get my point across too well because english isnt my mother language. lol

So in conclusion i'd have to say i'd love to see a product that is laboratory or hospital grade ammonia - truly clean and free of anything but ammonia - and in a known/ labeled concentration (i know ammonia % changes with storage time). It would take a lot of guesswork out of the fishless cycle and probably save a lot of people some stress/ worries (especially the enthusiastic newbie who wants to do things right - without hurting fish and is willing to stare at an empty tank for 6 weeks), and maybe even some fish from being poisoned.

 

[mishi8]

ParadoxLiz, those types of LFSs do exist! You may need to do some hunting around to find a similar place near you, but my LFS can't be the only one that offers classes.

They offer free classes to newbies that explains the basics of fishkeeping, and goes in depth about cycling. It was a pleasure to take the class...wish I had known about it when we first set up the tank (was a gift kit, purchased at PetSmart), but it was still helpful after the fact. They also offer specialty classes such as "Discus Keeping and Raising," "Advanced Aquarium Techniques," and "Basic Pond Design and Maintenance." However, this LFS still doesn't teach or promote fishless cycling.

 

[mishi8]

I have to go with Roan Art here. I woud also rather buy a "known safe" type of ammonia than risking it when buying something from a hardware store or walmart. I'll explain later why.

I don't know. I personally am pretty confident that the bottle has in it what it says. After all, we're working with chemicals here, and if manufacturers weren't careful about contamination, then there would be a risk of chemical reactions if products got mixed anywhere down the line, whether it's during manufacturing/bottling or during household use...definitely a higher risk with cleaning products than with food products (allergies and food tolerances aside).

As far as ammonia goes, it also has many uses beyond cleaning floors...for example, it can be used in laundry for stain removal...and if I'm going to use it in that manner, it better not have additives that could otherwise damage my clothes, or cause problems for sensitive skin.

 

[ParadoxLiz]

(i know ammonia % changes with storage time)

Instead of carrying the liquid, fish stores could carry the solid (ammonium cloride) and a little "microgram" measurer (or maybe a diluted form of the solid (though I've never heard of that)) - it's stable longer than the liquid... Also easier to determine how much you need per gallon...

(From what I've read and from the lab folk here (I work in a non-clinical testing laboratory).)

Liz

 

[daveedka]

Picture of the Wal-mart ammonia is up BTW, I edited it into my first response to keep it on page one.
Dave

 

[ParadoxLiz]

ParadoxLiz, those types of LFSs do exist! You may need to do some hunting around to find a similar place near you, but my LFS can't be the only one that offers classes.

Darn! There goes my whole business concept, right down the drain!

Maybe I'll call around to a few and see if anyone local does this (the ones I've been to certainly don't have room for teaching anything - you can barely squeeze between the tanks). I just figure if PetSmart can have puppy classes, why can't someone have fishy classes...

Thanks,

Liz

 

[mishi8]

Darn! There goes my whole business concept, right down the drain!

Maybe I'll call around to a few and see if anyone local does this (the ones I've been to certainly don't have room for teaching anything - you can barely squeeze between the tanks). I just figure if PetSmart can have puppy classes, why can't someone have fishy classes...

Thanks,

Liz

Liz, the LFS owner is a member of PIJAC and, through through that organization, he's been trained & certified to teach others in fishkeeping. He also trains other pet store staff (both private and chain pet/fish stores) throughout this area.