Are Water Changes Actually Necessary?

[GoldLenny]

Okay, so this is a bit disjointed but here it goes:
Someone commented about the earth having essentially the same water since it's inception, which is completely untrue. Water (H2O) is simply the combination of 2 hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom. Now, in high school chemistry classes, water is referred to as the "universal solvent," meaning it can dissolve many, many other molecules. It's also taught that when water dissolves something, that means there is a new molecule that is formed, and whatever that molecule may be it certainly isn't water. As a solvent, water also has a point of saturation (the most stuff it can dissolve) which can be affected slightly by certain factors such as temperature and pressure (both pretty stable in your common fish tank). Once your water has become saturated it no longer dissolves anything new. With evaporation, typically these other dissolved molecules build up in the tank, while water vapor leaves the tank. When you "top off" your tank, the new water simply dissolves these solids and you are left with a saturated water supply. Since fish breath air, the equivalent metaphor would be like keeping your cat in an air tight acrylic cage and never giving it new air. With a big enough cage, some plants, etc., you can build a pretty close replica of a natural environment, but because of the smaller scale (as compared to THE WHOLE EARTH), waste will inevitably build up to higher and higher levels (think Stephen King's new installment, Under the Dome), making the isolated, simulated "environment" a pretty crappy place to live. By regularly changing relatively large portions of your water, you "refresh" the entire system, and like a river or stream (constantly flowing) or even an isolated water system like a lake (which receives new water from rainfall and runoff), actually come closer to mimicking nature than you would if you tried to make such a small system completely self sustainable.

:iagree:

We're not even living with the same hydrogen and oxygen atoms, much less the same water, that were around when the earth was Created.

 

[jpappy789]

I think this thread has gone off topic enough without adding in religion to the mix.

 

[Dekker]

Now, in high school chemistry classes, water is referred to as the "universal solvent," meaning it can dissolve many, many other molecules. It's also taught that when water dissolves something, that means there is a new molecule that is formed

We're not even living with the same hydrogen and oxygen atoms, much less the same water, that were around when the earth was Created.

Ok, wow.

1) While water can disolve things, you are NOT creating new atoms. The difference is between forming a new molecule and forming a solution.

When you add salt to water.... you have salt disolved in water H2O+ NaCl. This can be removed by evaporation and re-condensation, since no chemical reaction took place.

When you take Sodium (Na) and Chlorine (Cl) and combine them along with a energy source (burning the sodium) you get a chemical reaction that forms a new molecule, NaCl...salt.

2) YES WE ARE. While atoms may combine with other atoms and seperate from them as part of normal chemical reactions, they stay intact as atoms. The only way that you lose an atom is if you smash it in a particle accelerator, or break it with nuclear fission. The atoms we are made up of today are the same atoms that existed at the begining of the universe.

Now that the science lesson is over I wanted to post 2 reasons I change water, both were hit on a bit already.

Yes the earth does get regular water changes.... it's called rain and without it the chemical processes that make life possible would stagnate and stop. That's why it is the CYCLE of life.

The guy that posted about the TDS was right, everytime you add something to the tank (food,water that has minerals in it,decaying plants) you are raising the TDS. While fish can withstand some really high TDS levels, it puts a strain on them trying to maintain their osmoalic balance. Evaporation does not remove these solids. Yes there are things you can do that will remove a host of TDS from the water, very often they are replaced in the process by other TDS's. I guess you could try to make a perfectly balanced system, but most people have to leave their houses occasionally....

Fish are used to rainfall and most rely on them to tell them when it is a good time to breed. As long as you don't do too much at once it will not harm them, they are built for it.

 

[RDTigger]

I think the only way this "debate" will be solved is if the OP conducts an experiment where the test this WC criteria out.

Due to buildup of TDS and solid fish waste I do WC no less than every 2 weeks. The hard water residue that i find calcified freaks me out and I know the tank water must be pretty saturated with excess minerals.

 

[GoldLenny]

2) YES WE ARE. While atoms may combine with other atoms and seperate from them as part of normal chemical reactions, they stay intact as atoms. The only way that you lose an atom is if you smash it in a particle accelerator, or break it with nuclear fission. The atoms we are made up of today are the same atoms that existed at the begining of the universe.

You're obviously forgetting all the changes He made in His first six days... which is why I said what I said. It was a trick comment. LOL

You're also forgetting that in fact, many atoms have been terminated via atomic reaction.

Also, all of the meteor strikes that have happened over the eons that have probably added new *stuff* to Earth... and presumably some of this *stuff* might have been new hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

Now those technicalities presented... more than likely ALL of the original hydrogen and oxygen atoms have been used and abused and chemically cleansed many times over via many chemical processes, including but not limited to respiration, photosynthesis, evaporation, condensation, fire, etc... so the resulting new water that is created by them is exactly that... new water. It's not the same old water.

I'm also not sure that there are or were only a finite number of hydrogen and oxygen atoms even after He took His seventh day off for rest. I imagine that He has made other changes.... like the great flood (aka Noah's Ark) when the earth was covered in water. If He used all of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the atmosphere to create all of that water, then the survivors on Noah's Ark would likely have suffocated... unless He left just enough for them to still be able to breathe. Only He knows for sure! ;-)

I should add.. to keep things on topic... that was one big-arsed water change! LOL

 

[GoldLenny]

I think the only way this "debate" will be solved is if the OP conducts an experiment where the test this WC criteria out.

Due to buildup of TDS and solid fish waste I do WC no less than every 2 weeks. The hard water residue that i find calcified freaks me out and I know the tank water must be pretty saturated with excess minerals.

Since over 80% of the poll respondents say that they do regular scheduled water changes, the OP did not fine enough Yes-Men to support their hopeful position and they left this thread and probably this forum a LONG time ago. Look at the OP and the date of their last log in / reply.

 

[GoldLenny]

You know, I almost forgot one other BIG thing that happens that probably does in fact create lots of NEW hydrogen and oxygen atoms... VOLCANO'S!!!!

From Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_gas
The principal components of volcanic gases are water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), sulfur either as sulfur dioxide (SO2) (high-temperature volcanic gases) or hydrogen sulfide (H2S) (low-temperature volcanic gases), nitrogen, argon, helium, neon, methane, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Other compounds detected in volcanic gases are oxygen (meteoric), hydrogen chloride, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen bromide, nitrogen oxide (NOx), sulfur hexafluoride, carbonyl sulfide, and organic compounds. Exotic trace compounds include methylmercury, halocarbons (including CFCs), and halogen oxide radicals.
The abundance of gases varies considerably from volcano to volcano. However, water vapor is consistently the most common volcanic gas, normally comprising more than 60% of total emissions. Carbon dioxide typically accounts for 10 to 40% of emissions.[1]
Volcanoes located at convergent plate boundaries emit more water vapor and chlorine than volcanoes at hot spots or divergent plate boundaries. This is caused by the addition of seawater into magmas formed at subduction zones. Convergent plate boundary volcanoes also have higher H2O/H2, H2O/CO2, CO2/He and N2/He ratios than hot spot or divergent plate boundary volcanoes.[1]

That's a LOT of H's and O's in that one snip... and reminds me of an old high school and college cheer we use to do to mess with the less-informed football fans around us... who would wonder what the heck we were saying. Needless to say, we were usually pretty trashed and couldn't pronounce the first half properly either. LOL

“Themistocles, Thucydides, the Peloponnesian War, X squared, Y squared, H2SO4”

Yeah... I had to Google to find the correct spellings.
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050317/modelun.shtml

I didn't go to the U. of Chicago though... and they didn't invent that cheer in 2005. It was around a LONG time ago.

 

[dundadundun]

I WROTE:

since god has so much experience doing pwc's... what do you guys think he'd charge to make weekly house visits for maintenance? it's just getting too confusing with all this evidence and research for me to do them anymore... i don't know if i'm supposed to do 500% daily or 2% semi-annually in my betta bowl. my sturgeon is looking sickly in there and i think it MIGHT be a little cramped for him... i think his fins are getting roughed up from rubbing on the glass. any suggestions?

he has sooo many nice, naturalistic aquariums. i just want one like one of his. is that too much to ask?

please lend me your wisdom, oh wise masters of the aquarium world.

sincerely, your humble servant and grasshopper;
done

p.s. keep in mind, folks; there's only ever one way to do things... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182994&highlight=works

p.p.s. should i try diaper rash cream, neosporin or a&d ointment on my fishies poor fins first? which one would be better for him?

p.p.p.s. his water is only 9 months old, but it's getting cloudy (i can't see into it at all), should i add a clarifier or aquarium salt to clear up the water? how many tablespoons of salt should i add 5-6, or what? his bowl is about 1/2 gallon with a tube thingy.

YOU RESPONDED:

Since you have so much disdain for God that you don't even spell His name correctly, I seriously doubt that He would help you... unless you get on your knees and ask Him... and then He would help you for free.

:lol:
congratulations... you totally missed the point, AGAIN. :silly:
here's an idea... instead of pushing your opinions of how tanks should be cared for on accomplished aquarists... how about educating people who haven't spent years studying the info you're reciprocating/regurgitating?

although... i must admit... it's probably a lot more fun attempting to make a public spectacle of everyone who has any intelligence or knowledge in the matter at all than being frustrated when newbs don't take a word of advice you offer and crash their systems anyway. :lipssealedsmilie:

capital letters, really? get on your knees? what completely insulting, useless, self righteous crap are you going to spew next? you have so far managed purely to insult everyone who's posted anything beyond your exact method of fish keeping. well, here's a wakeup call you'll never receive... your way is not the only way. although... if you'd read my post for any reason but figuring out how to insult the next person in line or proclaim your superiority over the next person you might have picked that up. either way, congratulations again... your fish get plenty of new water and you know how to use capitol letters. it's great that you've spent so much time educating yourself so that you can do that.

ahhh... and i do not feel i have to defend myself... nor my method of fish keeping... at least not for your sake. :dance:
Dekker makes very good points scientifically which cannot be ignored. new water... hah! now, that's funny! same molecules recycled naturally is more like it. think now... where did they all come from?

quick notes: there is such a thing as super saturation. if you don't believe it happens in your tank... are you injecting co2? if so, you might want to re-think that.

also... nature is not the all healing nature without it's waste in which the light we shine on it would suggest. it is deteriorating and tearing at the seams faster and faster everyday. it will eventually be unable to heal itself. as it is... if we continue to go in the direction we're already headed as a species we will destroy earth for most life on it before we're extinct provided it's not destroyed by nature first (hit by a comet or something). add to that that we're thoughtlessly still growing in numbers the problem will only increase exponentially as time goes on.

either way, although education can get you where you want to be in life, it does not replace intelligence nor common sense.

so... water changes... they're necessary... most agree on that. at what interval, though? forget the reasoning, that's been covered sporadically throughout this thread (although at times, not as sufficiently as one would like). it would depend on the tank. low light, low tech tanks can go long intervals without w/c's. high tech, ei tanks depend on weekly 50% changes to keep the ferts from getting out of hand or unbalanced. tom barr for example has degrees in fields related to our tanks, coined the ei dosing regimen and is working on a masters degree related to what we do. he has and works with tanks that get anywhere from a 50% weekly change to an annually or bi-annually w/c admittedly. by all means, please explain to him why his low-tech tanks need w/c's more than every year. please do the same for d. walstad. if you can convince them that they're npt's or low-tech tanks will crash without weekly w/c's i'm sure many more accomplished aquarists will not only bow down like you request but do solely as you say. :headshake2: i doubt it's going to happen though.

 

[Chrisinator]

WATER CHANGE FTW!

 

[Reefscape]

Thread cleaned up - Keep religeon out of this debate